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Post by sydsbluesky on Jul 10, 2009 17:17:17 GMT -5
I'm not going to call this a problem, because it already has a solution. Problems that are already solved are just... things.
I'm replacing a speaker in my frankenstein amp cab, and i seem to have misplaced the cable that was hooked to the posts on the back of the speaker. Not a huge problem because I can get another, BUT this seems like the perfect opportunity to ask a question I've had for a while, now.
What makes a guitar cable a guitar cable, and what makes a speaker cable a speaker cable? What is the difference between a six dollar 12 foot cable and a 100 dollar 12 foot cable?
One specific guitar cable I found on MF has the following specs:
* Multiple gauge high- and low-frequency wire networks for accurate, natural sound reproduction
* MicroFiber dielectric-wrapped wire networks for the fastest transients, maximum clarity, definition and presence
* MultiTwist impedance-balanced construction for maximum signal transfer and noise rejection
* Double shielded with 97% coverage copper braid and carbon-infused dielectric for superior noise rejection
* 24k gold-plated contact, heavy-duty, high-current connectors are durable and corrosion resistant
* Ergonomically contoured, heavy-duty body shell is easier to grab and offers hassle-free insertion and removal every time
* Heavy-duty black nylon mesh jacket provides maximum durability and visual appeal
What do these impressive sounding facts really mean? Are they really what sets the men apart from the boys, or are they just a few good ideas and a lot of good publicity?
Oh, and any suggestions on how to attach the cable to the speaker poles? Those two naked wires hooking to the back seem, well, naked. From what I've seen, it's not the best policy to leave wires exposed to the electromagnet garbage of the environment.
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Post by sydsbluesky on Jul 10, 2009 17:26:30 GMT -5
heh.. had a feeling it might get moved.
The original idea was for the wiring of the speaker, but I kinda figured it out as I was typing it, and the thought process shifted to the cable question.
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Post by newey on Jul 10, 2009 18:08:04 GMT -5
Yes.
Shielding of guitar cables is a good idea. Gold-plated contacts are corrosion resistant and will maintain good contact longer. Good quality plugs are a good idea so the guitar cable stands up to the usual road abuse for a while longer.
The rest is just marketing-speak.
As far as speaker wires/cables are concerned, the same sort of marketing nonsense infests the hi-end stereo audiophile market, but doesn't seem to have crept into the guitar world as much. Give the marketing boys some time, they'll eventually start in on us with this dreck, too.
For my two cents, more $$ can buy you longevity, but won't buy you better sound.
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Post by sumgai on Jul 10, 2009 18:11:24 GMT -5
syd, It's more like "what separates the men from their money"? Welcome to Advance MarketingSpeak 201. Every word you bulleted is of the highest caliber BS, period. Absolutely none of it has any relevance to your tone, it's all about extracting the maximum amount of money from your wallet, end of story. (Well, gold actually is corrosion resistant, but really.... how many guitar cables made of anything have you ever seen that were corroded? Even after several years? How about after a beer bath provided by a drunk wandering into your stage area? Thought so.) Hmmm, let me do the parable thing by quoting from a former Tax Collector who used to work for Louis XIV (yeah, that King Louis): "The art of collecting taxes is like plucking a goose - one tries for as many feathers as possible without being bitten in return." The same goes for Marketers - they have only one goal in life, and that's to prove P. T. Barnum was correct - a fool and his money are soon parted. I trust I've enlightened you a little bit, but just in case, try these on for size: guitarnuts2.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=coffee&action=display&thread=4021guitarnuts2.proboards.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=coffee&thread=3353&page=1guitarnuts2.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=coffee&action=display&thread=3959Other topics are sprinkled here and there, these are just what I could remember off the top of sumwon's head.  ....... What's the difference between the cable used for a guitar into the amp, and cable used for the speakers coming out of the amp? Well, the nasty intereference will interfere with the guitar signal, so the cable is shielded (somewhat). There's no significant power to speak of, so the cable can be a much smaller diameter and still get the job done. (After a lot of other considerations, to be sure.) Whereas a speaker cable needs no shielding because it's handling a lot of power, said power easily swamping any amounts of nasty interference. Said power also requiring a hefty wire size (by comparison) in order to maintain it's cool without going Ge-Fooey ©...... Which in turn explains why your speaker wires can be bare at the very ends. But make sure that they are connected securely to the posts on the speaker itself. By that I mean a crimp connection, or solder, or a screw-down binding post.... anything of that nature. HTH sumgai p.s. Speakers, cables, it's all "Amps" if it ain't directly within the guitar itself. |
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Post by sydsbluesky on Jul 10, 2009 18:20:32 GMT -5
As I suspected.
I like making an uninformed purchase, and then years later, finding myself fully justified.
The monster rocks are about the best I've ever used for longevity, and the gold ends make them look B.A.F jacking into the wine red gibber LP, which I no longer use on stage because of those drunks that were mentioned. Except that this one threw a quarter at me and hit my guitar instead of wandering onto the stage.
And I'll remember the amp thing, sumgai.
Thanks, guys.
Jesse
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Post by ashcatlt on Jul 14, 2009 11:00:43 GMT -5
Yeah, like sumgai said. The big difference is the shielding. It's my understanding that a braided shield is undesirable in a speaker cable first because it acts more like a smaller gauge than it might otherwise be (if all the wires were gathered and twisted together) and second because it creates a higher capacitance between the two conductors.
In a guitar (or line, or even headphone) level signal, the current that finds its way through this capacitive coupling is small enough not to hurt anybody. In a speaker level cable, though, this current can be quite significant. At high frequencies it looks like a dead short, not good for the amp. Or the cable for that matter.
Now, what's the difference between a speaker cable and a lamp cord or AC extension cord? The cables I whipped together (at the last minute) before our show on Saturday (who rents out a PA without cables!?!) were rated for >1300 watts power, and UL tested!
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Post by sydsbluesky on Jul 14, 2009 11:29:07 GMT -5
Hahah nice.
I actually have some lamp cordage like stuff hooking a few things togther in my room... it LOOKS like speaker... SOUNDS like speaker wire... A rose by any other name will blare Led Zeppelin II just as sweetly. I think it came from an old TV.
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Post by sumgai on Jul 14, 2009 17:35:28 GMT -5
ash, Just a quickie note.... The UL may (or may not, depending) test something, but they never approve of anything. They only "list' or "recognize" individual parts, sub-assemblies or entire devices (presumably only those that are submitted to them). To say that they 'tested' something has no meaning, unless there's a sticker attached. And even then, there's no guarantee of any kind of safety.... how often have you seen something for sale, and there's a UL sticker hanging off the power cord? And yet the device itself looks like it's ready for the compost pile? Yes, you've seen this? Well, the cord was listed by the UL as safe, but it's only part of an assembly (the device) that wasn't submitted for testing. [glow=red,2,300]Danger, Will Robinson![/glow] Don't get me started on the UL, they've cost me more aggravation that I can medicate myself for. Suffice it to say, the final bottom line for them is liability. Try suing the UL because something with their sticker caught fire and burned down your building....  <end 'just a note'> sumgai p.s. But everything I own that has one or more speakers involved is using ZIP cord, make no mistake! ;D |
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Post by ChrisK on Jul 14, 2009 19:26:03 GMT -5
Specs. Specs. $94 and stupidity. toutifications.That's nice, what does it mean specifically? Unspecified - marketing BS. What about the slower transients? Can these be used with a bass too? How maximum is the clarity, is it measured in furlongs per fortnight? What is the definition of definition? How present is the presence? How about for the slower transients? Unspecified - marketing BS. Oxygen-free copper and extremely low series impedance are not necessary since the passive pickups are, uh, high impedance generators. I doubt one would notice 10 Ohms of series resistance. Oxygen-free copper is directly related to the rapid removal of high thread-count paper bills from wallets. Noise rejection is good. Shielding is good! Oh shiny, BS unless the mating connector and terminated wiring (unless soldered) are also gold-plated, otherwise THEY will still corrode. Did I mention shiny? One has to play reallllllly fast and hard to get the current even moderately high.  Yeah, we all hate that there insertion hassle. Although, to be fair, when I have trouble finding the jack, I often have similar trouble finding the strings as well. A subtle form of shiny. Someone is paid by their word count. And oh, what is the cable's capacitance specification (the REAL spec that matters)?The amp output is a very low impedance; unless your arc-welding nearby, most EMI has the chance of a bee's fart to effect things. Guitar. High impedance, low voltage, low current, shielded. A passive guitar signal is a high impedance generator (it's AC) driving a (hopefully) high impedance cable and amplifier input. Loading in any form is undesirable. As few picofarads of cable capacitance as possible is desirable. Bill Lawrence (Willi Stich) sells guitar cable kits that have about 20 pF per foot, with a 10 foot assembly having around 200 pF. This is the key to avoiding the "tone suck" of that other high-cut tone control that's ALWAYS ON FULL, a.k.a. the cable crapacitance. Adequately shielding high impedance signals is a good thing too. Amp. Low impedance, high voltage (well, compared to a guitar), high current. An amplifier driving a speaker of a few Ohms is a very high current driver where very small series resistances can have significant effect (and moderate capacitance generally does not), primarily with damping and the accurate driving of the speaker coil (an open-loop linear motor armature). |
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Post by sydsbluesky on Jul 14, 2009 20:27:42 GMT -5
I think the person(s) that types up the description for Lace also gets paid by the word.
There are plenty of them.
Beautiful stuff, Chris. +1.
I love the Monster Rocks. That gold end is totally worth about 10 dollars (the difference between those and the minimum cost cable I'd trust on stage) of 24K flash. It looks sweet.
I can't find that one spec, but I'm not super worried.
Running guitars at lower impedances kinda reduces the problems from that, right? I use either actives or EMG gadgets.
Is my reasoning sound on that?
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Post by ChrisK on Jul 14, 2009 23:28:56 GMT -5
I presume that you mean using lower impedance (a.k.a. active) pickups and signal modules.
In this case, yes, they have an active electronics output buffer that has an output impedance around 2K - 10K Ohms.
There's also that thing called RF. Only lightning jumps that gap.
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Post by sydsbluesky on Jul 15, 2009 15:06:02 GMT -5
Excellent.
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