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Post by newey on Jan 11, 2008 22:45:00 GMT -5
Guitarists and guitar makers seem to have settled on 3 pickups as the maximum number. But it wasn't always that way . . .   (A 1960's era Teisco and a Burns, if you're curious) These are the 2 I remember from my youth, I'm sure there are others. Somebody was even making a 5-pup monster as I recall. So why did the industry settle on 3? I'm guessing there are 3 objections. First, noise/hum/schmutz issues. Second, always picking directly over one or another of the pups, and third, not huge tonal differences with the pups so close together. If those are the only objections, I think the first issue could be dealt with via utilizing proper shielding and grounding, the third could be dealt with by some creative wiring and switching, and the second issue I could live with. So I'm wondering whatever happened to the 4 or more pup crowd, and whether anyone on this site has experience playing, or building, a guitar with 4 or more magnetic pups in it. Seems to me an extra single coil could be slipped into a Strat without too much drama. Maybe an idea for a project down the road, unless I hear some discouraging words on this range. BTW, I said 4 or more magnetic pups- your Strat with the piezo bridge is cool but outside the scope of this debate. |
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Post by ChrisK on Jan 11, 2008 23:21:13 GMT -5
"One's not enough,
Two's a crowd,
Three's too many,
And four's not allowed!"
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Post by kuzi16 on Jan 11, 2008 23:40:28 GMT -5
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Post by newey on Jan 11, 2008 23:54:49 GMT -5
Kuz-
Not only that, it goes to 11 . . .
Anyway, I think this sort of thing is part of the American mindset:
"If some's good, more's gooder!" ;D
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Post by sumgai on Jan 12, 2008 15:02:27 GMT -5
newey, Well, there's always the issue of what sounds good.  In the past, we've discussed the concept of nodes along a vibrating string. No matter where a pickup is placed in relation to the length of a string, there will be nodes directly over it. To recap, these nodes will do two things: reinforce or cancel various harmonics. It's the relationship of those reinforcements and cancellations that we guitarists call "tone" (Or if you're Eric Johnson, it'd be "TONE".) Placing the coil's magnetic field directly under the "good" nodes (that have and produce the desirable tonality) is an art, to say the least. Leo hit upon it almost directly, with a little help from his friends. And as Chris has noted so often, the Strat's middle pup really isn't in the ideal spot, tone-wise, it's only in the approximate middle to please the viewer's eye! Experiment, be my guest! ;D Find those nodes, particularly the ones that others have missed for one reason or another. Find the combination of nodes that will force people to re-consider their pre-conceived notions about tone. It's what we're here for, to shake up and wake up the guitar world! Why else would we be Nutz?! ;D sumgai |
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Post by newey on Jan 12, 2008 16:27:12 GMT -5
Well, Sumgai, I started reading your post thinking it was going to be that discouraging word from the range there, but you end by encouraging my over the top thinking.
I'm wondering if the nodes are the reason for angling the bridge pup in the standard strat setup??? Always wondered about that. I've seen pickguards to reverse the angle of the bridge pup, for a distinct tone.
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Post by gfxbss on Jan 12, 2008 17:01:37 GMT -5
newey, check here. i remember this one from when i first popped in here. nothing else, pm ranch and i be he could be of some service. once of my current guitarist plays through a peavy classic 30..... the volume knob goes to 12. ;D Tyler |
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Post by FireBall on Jan 13, 2008 20:52:44 GMT -5
Down here we call that pickup a "Motherbucker"! ;D  |
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Post by sumgai on Jan 14, 2008 4:56:51 GMT -5
newey,
Not only that, but harken back to the Mosrite, as seen most often in the guise of the Ventures model - the neck pup is slanted the opposite way!
Yes, nodality does have a lot to do with the bridge pup's slant. In fact, the closer we get to the bridge, the closer the dominant nodes are on the string. The slant was meant to make the two E strings get the best advantage of harmonics (remember, back then the standare high-E strings was a 0.12 gauge!), and the rest of the strings had nodes that fell close enough to the pole pieces that they sounded good too (or at least acceptable, depending one which camp you were in (jazz versus country)).
And for the record, in our world, only Nutz get to go over the top! ;D
HTH
sumgai
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Post by Runewalker on Jan 14, 2008 9:11:47 GMT -5
Well at risk of stating the obvious, every 2H guitar is a 4 pickup guitar. Now if you went 4H you would have an eight pickup guitar. Here is a prototype design in the direction you describe (previously part of a thread in the Gallery):  |
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Post by newey on Jan 14, 2008 16:41:44 GMT -5
Rune- 4 pups is one thing but 11 knobs??? I'd be leaving blood on the knobs n' switches for sure Of course you're right about the 4 coils on 2 HBs, I was thinking of 4 SCs for that SC strat sound. But the issue is, if 2 of the 4 are too close together, (and if you make one RWRP), then you've got a humbucker sound anyway, at least when both are activated. This started out as more of a philosophical discussion but Sumgai's call to "Experiment!" has decided me to at least do some testing for the best nodes for 2 middle SC pickups in a Strat guard - got an idea for a "test mule" that I'll post soon. Meanwhile, I've got two other ongoing projects that I'd better get done, or I'm going to get another lecture from the spouse about "all these guitar parts lying all over . . ."  |
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Post by kuzi16 on Jan 14, 2008 18:13:04 GMT -5
rune- if i looked at the diagram for that guitar my head might explode.
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Post by ux4484 on Jan 14, 2008 19:40:45 GMT -5
rune- if i looked at the diagram for that guitar my head might explode. I think the drawing would be pretty simple.... because.... It's a photoshop job  . It does have p-90's, and appears to have three knob controls and 5 switches. The rest are duplicated and added on. You can tell on the knobs by the space under the knob, no space=fake knob (plus the unrealistic shadow under them). The switches are easier, the real ones have a reflection on the pickgard, It looks to me like 4 maybe 5 are real and the rest fake. It lookslike the 2nd from neck P-90 is duped, because the screw settings on the pole pieces on the middle two pups are exactly the same, the chances of that are slim to none, and you can see copy/past artifacts on the strings. It is fun too look at though. |
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Post by Runewalker on Jan 14, 2008 20:34:52 GMT -5
rune- if i looked at the diagram for that guitar my head might explode. I think the drawing would be pretty simple.... because.... It's a photoshop job . ux4484: (I like any name with an "X" in it.) Hey! I was kinda proud of those "unrealistic shadows". There's a lyric for you. ....of course it's photoshopped! What kinda drugs would someone have to be on to build that? here's the original thread: guitarnuts2.proboards45.com/index.cgi?board=music&action=display&thread=1169970092where CK and I had a photoshop shootout and went to, of course, ridiculous extremes. In the thread you will see CK's 4 P90 PRS. If I had more pickup channel room on the Midas I woulda put 8. Just having a little fun guys. RW |
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Post by ChrisK on Jan 14, 2008 21:28:37 GMT -5
Up here we call that a refrigerator magnet.
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Post by ux4484 on Jan 15, 2008 10:04:45 GMT -5
Rune,
I forgot about the original thread (double duh, because I posted in it).
but I wasn't sure from kuzi's tone if he maybe though it was real.
.....always glad to provide an "X" ;D
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Post by kuzi16 on Jan 15, 2008 16:51:03 GMT -5
i figured it was "real" in the same way the Spinal Tap guitar was real: just made up to be/look ridiculous
sure its real... and by "real" i mean "fake"
my tone comes through better on my guitar than in my writing....
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Post by newey on Jan 15, 2008 18:58:13 GMT -5
Hey, I'm not too proud to admit that I bit on that one- never really occurred to me that it might be photoshopped, although I didn't think all the knobs, etc were functional. Thought it was some sort of mockup, like Kuz said,
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Post by andy on Jan 17, 2008 6:42:17 GMT -5
I'd like to see the 4 pickup Strat when it comes into being! Both my guitars have three pickups, despite being a Tele and an SG, but I've never owned a four pickup guitar- the ones I've seen have been 40 years or more old, or based on something that was, so I just assume that the tone didn't quite match up to lesser pickup configurations, and wasn't carried on. Like I said though, I've never tried one, so who knows? Either way, four pickups nestled in there certainly look properly cool, and looking at the Tiesco in thew first post, I wish more guitars still had that wonky, groovy look to them. Strats and Les Pauls pretty much unequivocally nailed the classy guitar look, and have been copied endlessly for it- and sell endlessly too, unlike the more oddball shapes, but there is a cool vibe to some of the wobbly, angular 60's models which is off-kilter, but cool. Just let us know how the four sound in the Strat when you're done! Oh and I heard that the 'rev counter' on that spinal tap guitar actually reacts to the strength of picking on the strings- not very accurately, but still...  |
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Post by Runewalker on Jan 17, 2008 8:33:21 GMT -5
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Post by ChrisK on Jan 17, 2008 11:43:00 GMT -5
?, 2H + 2S ?= 4?  |
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Post by kuzi16 on Jan 17, 2008 13:49:41 GMT -5
...Oh and I heard that the 'rev counter' on that spinal tap guitar actually reacts to the strength of picking on the strings- not very accurately, but still... how would one wire that ? that might be fun to play with |
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Post by andy on Jan 17, 2008 14:46:58 GMT -5
...Oh and I heard that the 'rev counter' on that spinal tap guitar actually reacts to the strength of picking on the strings- not very accurately, but still... how would one wire that ? that might be fun to play with God knows!! I've definately seen mention that it worked, but how, I have no idea! www.rockandrollweekend.com/Mr.Horsepower.htm has the spec shown on a handfull of the other sites, and has some nice pics too. Maybe it's just a joke- it sounds pretty unlikely, but then, would Spinal Tap say something that was complete rubbish, just 'coz they thought it would make them look good??? Oh and they call it a 'Tachometer', rather than a 'rev counter'. Silly me. |
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Post by Runewalker on Jan 17, 2008 16:04:27 GMT -5
?, 2H + 2S ?= 4? Well I knew someone would carp about that. But you did bust me on the 5, which in my embarrassment I went back and changed. Good thing I work in Finance and not real math. I always look at an H as 2 single coils. Therefore: 2 H = 4 S, so 2H +2S = 6S. Depends on assumptions I guess. I am intrigued with the angles on the mid pups on the SM Sig. SG in another thread was talking about harmonic nodes and optimum pup placement, and seems like I have seen an academic paper on optimal placement. SG asserted that the Strat angle optimized string to magnetic field in the angled bridge pup, if I read him right. If so, then I suspect it a happy accident rather than a planned event. To quote SG: ….No matter where a pickup is placed in relation to the length of a string, there will be nodes directly over it.
To recap, these nodes will do two things: reinforce or cancel various harmonics. It's the relationship of those reinforcements and cancellations that we guitarists call "tone" (Or if you're Eric Johnson, it'd be "TONE".) Placing the coil's magnetic field directly under the "good" nodes (that have and produce the desirable tonality) is an art, to say the least. Leo hit upon it almost directly, with a little help from his friends. And as Chris has noted so often, the Strat's middle pup really isn't in the ideal spot, tone-wise, it's only in the approximate middle to please the viewer's eye!....
Yes, nodality does have a lot to do with the bridge pup's slant. In fact, the closer we get to the bridge, the closer the dominant nodes are on the string. The slant was meant to make the two E strings get the best advantage of harmonics (remember, back then the standare high-E strings was a 0.12 gauge!), and the rest of the strings had nodes that fell close enough to the pole pieces that they sounded good too (or at least acceptable, depending one which camp you were in (jazz versus country)).
.... Blowhard Ed Roman asserts: Q. What is the difference between a Custom 24 and a Custom 22?
A. 2 frets, and different pickups.
I think PRS better train their people a little better. This answer is a total half truth.
The Question Was ....What is the difference between a Custom 24 and a Custom 22?
He left out the most important part, pickup location!!!!
The Custom 22 pickup is situated in a location where the 24th fret harmonic falls. There is a node or phase cancellation at that location. This simply means that a lot of the midrange frequencies are gonna go bye bye because they are cancelled out. You will get a muddy sound just like a Les Paul on a 22 fret model whereas the 24 fret version pickup falls off axis or away from the node. You will get a more clear lively rhythm sound. The 22 fret sounds good for lead but at what sacrifice. The 24 sounds good for lead also but on the 24 you don't have to sacrifice your midrange frequencies. ... www.edroman.com/rants/prs_faq.htmSo the question becomes is the "good" node under or away from the natural harmonics? and when you fret, of course you change the harmonic position, so the "best" pickup node changes unless you only play in E, A or B (I guess). Therefore, there is no optimal node, is there? RW |
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Post by sumgai on Jan 17, 2008 16:21:08 GMT -5
kuzi, Simple! It's nothing more than an analog VU meter, often found on recording equipment and some of the (slightly) more expensive mixing boards. One simply captures the value of highest voltage generated at the pickup, prevents it from dropping back down quite so quickly with a capacitor, and then delivers the voltage measured on the capacitor to a meter. QED.  The trick is to keep the cap from interfering with the tone of the pup. For that, an active system will probably be the easiest way to go. Now an updated version, such as a LED bar graph extending all the way from the bridge to the neck, that'd be uber-cool! ;D sumgai |
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Post by andy on Jan 17, 2008 20:24:57 GMT -5
...Or up the length of the neck...
In fact, with those Sims LEDs, that might just work...
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Post by ChrisK on Jan 18, 2008 20:49:46 GMT -5
French Fried Feldergarb! Just a dang microcenton! Yes Uh, no No, they're just not there. Midrange, Radar Range, free range, de'range is a Kenmore. It's them there harmonyionics (ya know, multiples of the fundamental). Well Dang, hmmmm'ski, so, there are harmonics that have a zero energy node over the 24th fret location (where the neck pickup is positioned on a 22 fret guitar). Gee, I'll bet that they're a multiple of the second harmonic. Oh, uh, wait, uh, this only applies to strings that are unfretted. Ugh, oh, hmmm, if'n one frets a string at the second fret, the 24th fret is now the 22nd fret "down the board", and the neck pickup is now at the 24th fret location (that there "bad place"). Well, the neck pickup and its sensing window isn't infinitely narrow (single coil or 'bucker), so it senses energy around its location, not just at its centerline. So, "with things actually not as bad as we're likely to be told by folk that think that we need more guitars with a 26th fret location placement of the traditional neck pickup", Q. What are the differences between a Custom 24 and a Custom 22? A. 2 frets, different pickups, and where one "lingers and fingers" a'board. And (oh crap, there always seems to be an "and" with this guy), while the string is osculating aboot, there is the plucking energy transient that travels end to end on the string, at the speed of sound in the string. I've never actually seen it "hop" over a pickup. If you don't "see" this, go pluck the end of a taut clothesline (near the "bridge" or "nut" ;D ;D) and look down the line. Interestingly, the Jerry Donahue Tele with the Strat single coil in the neck, has that pickup moved a tad back toward the bridge. Gee, I wonder where he "lingers and fingers" a'board. Ya, but dey keep movin aboot. (Gee, the tone might be in your fingers after all.) |
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Post by Runewalker on Jan 18, 2008 22:14:47 GMT -5
Exactly CK my man, whatever aboot is. Oh, right" aboot is....... uh... is aboot.....  |
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Post by sumgai on Jan 19, 2008 0:48:05 GMT -5
Chris, I didn't know that strings could kiss!? And yes, for the record, E.R. is at his usual best, being only half-assed right about any given topic. The best example of this is the venerable Jazzmaster. Look where Leo put the neck pup..... right, just exactly under the 2 5th fret, not the 24th, or just willy-nilly. If you capo the first fret, suddenly (for one fret only), the JM sounds suspiciously like a Strat. Hmmmmski...... But after that point, the similarity ends, the JM uniqueness re-asserts itself, to be sure. There's more to it, but I think most viewers thus far have the gist of it, so I won't get all pedantic or anything like that. sumgai |
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Post by ChrisK on Jan 20, 2008 18:54:21 GMT -5
....or pentonic.
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.
The trick is to keep the cap from interfering with the tone of the pup. For that, an active system will probably be the easiest way to go.