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Post by ozboomer on Mar 23, 2011 22:56:19 GMT -5
Parallel oop os a bit more usefully blended, since as with series oop, theres a distinct null point where theres minimum bass and its not at the fully-mixed position. But I can live without parallel oop at all, since series oop sounds better on my guitars. Thanks for your thoughts, John.. With all my experimenting, I reckon I can get similar sounds to OOP just by using a modified tone control from a G&L Legacy (see Chrisk's reference and my SimpleMod-b design).. So, given all this, it's looking like I might be approaching the end of this wiring series, I think, as I've tried out most things that seemed interesting to me... although, I still need to see about 2x P-90s and how they sound (notwithstanding my Junglemaster is getting closer by the day)... Anyhoo, the only thing I want to check now is to see how much closer to a 'classic' Strat tone I can get (I'm after the Jimi clean, Knopfler and Gilmour -types of sounds), so I'm looking down the path of some.. "economical"... Alnico V pickups. The candidates so far seem to be:- I'd like to try some of the 'noiseless' versions but I think most of the "economical" models use a dummy single coil under the main pickup and I don't have room inside the Bullet cavity for something so deep.. Pooh. So, if you have any other suggestions for pickups to try... I'd appreciate your thoughts. Fanx! a heap, everyone..
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Post by 4real on Mar 24, 2011 7:26:33 GMT -5
I love that sound too...although if doing a bit of mod wiring, don't is out on the bridge and neck selections and all three...I think gilmour might have a 'neck on' for this. I had a three way with a master tone and middle pickup phaser to dial in the quack...so a lot of options there. With these clean sounds, you tend to want as little niose as possible. If going for the 2 & 4 quack sounds, they are typically hum cancelling but that is not the only 'clean' sounds and in those sounds, the neck alone is often a richer fuller smooth sound... These days I am in favour of no noise and a little less vintage tone is it's good and noiseless pups have come a long way. A while back I spotted these affordable and kind of unique designs at GFS... store.guitarfetish.com/GFS-Noise-Free-NEOVIN-Pickups-for-Stratocaster-Sets_c_38.htmlThey appear to be a kind of 'rail' and as usual promoting them heavily... Not sure about the principle or anything much about them, but they do look interesting and don't appear to be of an excessive depth. ... But looking now, I see they ahve a new noiseless...so soon after crowing that the Neovins were the shnitz...hmmm store.guitarfetish.com/NEW-GFS-TRUE-COIL-Noise-Canceling-Single-Coil-Pickups_c_291.htmlThey do have a coil on the bottom, so probably is a little deeper. However, my strat is a squier and I have full JB fender noiseless pups in them which are quite deep. I have a regular fender noiseless and the top coil is a lot smaller and so the depth is not that much deeper overall and would fit in a typcial strat...so perhaps these would too. As usual, hard to tell through teh GFS schtick...the earliest 'stacked' singles used to sound really bad...but these days people seem to ahve got the formula right. Generally though, the bottom coil has additional poles and I notice that these don't so...hmmm...well, i am sure they aren't Kinmans but the price is decent if in sets. ... So, I tend to have a preference for Noiseless pickups where ever possible...there are just too many things around that can make a noise with a true single coil for all the shielding you might do. I also tend to go a bit warmer than vintage, not too overwound that they are muddy, but enough to drive a length of cable and still be capable of a hot signal, turn down a little with hotter pups with a treble bleed and you get back a bit of bite and clarity. I'm glad I did as I often play these days sitting at a computer but my guitars are all pretty much silent even under these conditions. ... I haven't really followed this monster thread...but if you are thinking some phase options...I posted a track of my strat and used the series HOoP sounds in the 'funky section"...I think there are 9 phase options alone so I couldn't sample everything...the first refrain is bridge and neck HOoP and the other a thinner middle and neck. When real Oop these selections especially the NxM with N OoP was so think it was unusable...adding a tiny cap made all phase options reasonably loud and more usable so worth experimenting with the Half Out of Phase thing. If you can get the bridge and neck...say with a neck on. You won't be disappointed. The all three tends to be a lovely 'light/soft' clean tone and good for a bit of 'strumming' If going the whole hog with series sounds, the all three series is the only one I tend to use...an interesting deep bassy jazzy sound...you can here it in that clip too as a pseudo baritone but sounds great with octaves...if not going series, that can probably be emulated well enough with a decent tone control. It's worth considering that both Knophler and Gilmour have been using EMG's in more recent times...you don't necessarily go 'vintage' to get that sound, or avoid 'hot' sounds...gilmour and later knophler tend to have quite a smooth tone with a fair bit of warmth. Beck too is generally clean and that is why I went for the hotter set in my strat. Old straits records and the shadows are great, but very thin really by today's standards. Oh, and check the pots required, many noiseless pups like a 500k as in my guitar...good luck in you choices
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Post by roadtonever on Mar 24, 2011 8:14:38 GMT -5
Another good economical option to consider are Bill Lawrence designed Fender SCN's off eBay. They sound perfectly strat-ey and vintag-ey to many people and are noiseless.
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Post by sumgai on Mar 25, 2011 18:40:45 GMT -5
Another good economical option to consider are Bill Lawrence designed Fender SCN's off eBay. They sound perfectly strat-ey and vintag-ey to many people and are noiseless. I'll second that. But be aware that Willy doesn't make them himself, he only designed them for Fender. I don't know where they're actually made, but for my money, it doesn't matter. The proof is in the pudding, and I say this particular flavor of pudding tastes mighty good! ;D (SCn's came stock on my 2005 AmStratDlx.) HTH sumgai
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Post by ozboomer on Mar 26, 2011 6:42:10 GMT -5
Another good economical option to consider are Bill Lawrence designed Fender SCN's off eBay. They sound perfectly strat-ey and vintag-ey to many people and are noiseless. Perhaps... but I just had a look and eBay's current offerings (and past auctions/sales as well) and ~US$120 seems to be the norm for new items and I couldn't find any used items.. Anyway, even US$90 is way over my budget at present... particularly for a $100 guitar(!)... Another 'facet' of interest though... I was looking between 'staggered' and 'flat' pole pickups... and it seems the 'staggered' are only important if you're playing a guitar that has a very flat neck, in which case the 'staggered' set will cause some strings to sound different to others (as the distance between the strings and the pole tops are different). For my Bullet and Affinity, at least, having a 9.5-inch radius neck (compared to the 'vintage' 7.25-inch radius), it would seem the use of 'staggered' or 'flat' pole pickups wouldn't make much difference. However, on some of the newer guitars (with, for example, a 20-inch radius neck), I should really be using 'flat' pole pickups. A visual representation often helps:- Is my reading of these 'facts' correct? ...and getting a basically "good" sound from the pickups is not really going to be affected too much by the pickup pole height (for a more-or-less 'vintage' radius fretboard, anyway)...?
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Post by ozboomer on Mar 26, 2011 7:50:13 GMT -5
In preparation for another query/info post in this thread, I'm just curious...
On all my (Strat-style) guitars, the Bridge and Neck pickups seem to be built with the south-pole magnet pointing upward, out of the guitar. In these positions, we'd generally call them "normally wound" (or something), in comparison to the Middle pickups which, these days, are often termed "RW/RP" (reverse-wound, reverse polarity).
Now, I can easily confirm the polarity of the 3 pickups are different according to the above notes... and the noise-cancelling observed says the "RW/RP" is correct...
...but is there a convention or similar for what constitutes "normal winding"? That is, is clockwise, for example, the "normal" winding direction, and thus "RW/RP" pickups would have anti-clockwise windings?
Just trying to get my understanding right about something funny I've observed with the GFS Dream 90 (Bridge) pickup I have installed...
...but more to come about that later.
Thanks...
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Post by newey on Mar 26, 2011 13:16:12 GMT -5
Oz- Your diagrams of fretboard radii are backwards, the ar of the curve is highest in the center. But as you note, flatter necks (like the 16" radius on Jacksons and other modern "shredder" guitars can pose a problem with the staggered pole pieces. The fix is easy, however- lower the pickup. This, too, is a compromise at best since the outer strings will then be further away from the (lower) pole pieces. With a 9.5" radius versus the vintage 7.25", I wouldn't expect any noticeable difference. No convention as to winding or polarity that I'm aware of. As folks have noted here before, for example, SD pickups are wound opposite of stock Fender pups, and so when mixing the two, the wiring on either the Fender or SDs needs to be reversed so as to have them be in phase; simply following the colors will result in them being OOP. Of course, clockwise vs. counterclockwise is a wholly arbitrary designation, since reversing the wires produces the same result. Each pup has 2 wires off of it; if we call one end "A" and the other "B", then we could say that, going from A to B it was clockwise, and the opposite way was couterclockwise (or "anticlockwise" for our "non-American" speakers ) Or we could call it the other way around. This results because we're talking AC here, so there is no firm designation of "ground" as one end. If the wiring is opposite, then the coil polarity in RWRP versions from the same mfr would likewise be the opposite.
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Post by ozboomer on Mar 28, 2011 7:29:03 GMT -5
So, let's see if I have my understanding right... I have 2 single coil pickups. Let's call them (something familiar), M and N. Some facts: - By measurement, we know that the M pickup has its magnet's "North" facing up; the N pickup has it's "South" facing up.
- M+N (parallel combined) exhibits noise cancellation
- M and N individually have the classic single coil hum
- we know (believe?) that one of the pickups is RW/RP
If we now introduce a 3rd pickup, called B. Some more facts: - The B pickup's magnet has its "North" facing up.
- M+B (parallel combined) exhibits NO noise cancellation
- M-B (parallel combined with B's wiring reversed) exhibits NO noise cancellation but the sound is thin, indicating out-of-phase
- B individually has the classic single coil hum
Additionally, the "Screwdriver Pull-off Test" indicates that the 3 pickups are all in-phase (except when the B pickup has its wiring reversed, B is out-of-phase). Given these observations, if we declare pickup N to have a clockwise (CW) winding (we dont' know but it's the differences that are important here), I think it's fair to say that: - with N = clockwise (CW) winding
- M = anti-clockwise (ACW) winding
- B = ACW winding (because of the observed OOP behaviour)
...as these assumptions give us behaviour that matches the observations. Is it then correct to say that if we swap pickups M and N, we will get the noise cancellation behaviour when we combine (new M + new N) and (new M + existing B)...? I think it is... but I always like to get another (few) sets of eyes to check over my thinking with this sort of thing...
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Post by newey on Mar 28, 2011 18:13:24 GMT -5
Oz-
I thinks your assertions prove out. The only change I would make is this:
So as to clarify that it is only RW/RP with respect to something else.
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Post by ozboomer on Apr 2, 2011 6:02:33 GMT -5
Something of interest I came across today during my research for modification options in the SimpleMod series... I wonder if any of our esteemed Nutz has tried this: Upgrading Your PickupsDirectly modifying the pickups seems to be a relatively high-risk approach... but for some "cheap'n'nasty" pickups, I wonder if it would work out to be a good/useful option? I see a couple of issues, on the face of it:- - You are destroying the basic structure of the pickup; if you don't get the pole pieces replaced, your pickup is broken. Kinda drastic.
- Hitting the pole pieces with a hammer of any sort would be a worry. Magnetic material tends to be sort-of brittle anyway, so I think I'd be using something like a vise-grip/pliers -type of thing to push the poles into place, rather than hitting 'em. Also, hitting them would make the magnetism go crazy (I think... That might be my crazy memory playing tricks on me - urban legends and such(!)).
- I'm not sure about using the 'rare-earth' magnets. I used to do magnetizing by having a magnet hit a screwdriver, for example, and then you slide it off the end... and repeat. It certainly got some magnetism into the screwdriver but I don't know how you'd effectively get the magnetism into the pickup poles.
Of even more concern is how you'd get the magnetism/flux strength to be consistent across each of the poles; if one pole is "weak" and another is "strong", you're going to have all sorts of uneven-ness in the sound coming through the pickup... don't you think?
- Where in the heck are you going to get magnetic pole pieces anyway? I don't even know what to look for (pickup pole pieces?)... let alone in various compositions (al-2, al-3 i dunno... al-5 is probably ok...maybe)... and then, the old problem of the USA-made and non-USA-made pickups have all these differing (non-standard) standards, of pole pitch, pickup width, etc... So I fully expect the dimensions of the pole pieces are going to be totally variable as well.
Perhaps it's all that much easier to let the pickup manufacturers worry about all this... and just lash-out on a cheap-o set of pickups... Pfft. Oh... and is it a reliable "indicator" that the "bar magnets" at the bottom of the pickup means you're looking at a ceramic magnet pickup? Do Alnico (or otherwise) pickups only have magnetized pole pieces? Interested in your thoughts, folks...
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Post by sbgodofmetal on Apr 6, 2011 8:31:36 GMT -5
to my knowledge i would say no a pup with a bar magnet isn't always ceramic, alnico is most commonly seen in pole piece form, BUT... i've been hearing lately about ''ENCAPSULATED'' pups like, EMG, SEYMOR DUNCAN, LACE, as well as a few more using an alnico internal ''unexposed'' bar, & wrapping the coil around it directly instead of a bobbin. there are a few with exposed alnico bars. such as twin blade humbuckers, dimarzio rails & humbuckers. but in those cases the magnet was embedded in the bobbin.
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Post by sbgodofmetal on Apr 6, 2011 8:41:53 GMT -5
now that being said, the way you distinguish the 2 is from the fact that ceramic bar magnets range in ''natural'' color from a light brown to solid black and '''never'' rust or corrode, and alnico bars are a shiny silverish color and almost reflective, and can suffer from rust or corrosion over time if the're exposed magnet pup's.
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Post by sbgodofmetal on Apr 6, 2011 9:01:16 GMT -5
also most ''ceramic'' bars are at the bottom of the pup so in your case ozboomer it was a ceramic pup, though the rail styled and twin blade pups are also making pups with ceramic bars embedded in the bobbins or with the coils wrapped directly around it. l'd say its for versatility, and preferential options. but just go by the coloring as well as overall sound and it'll be blatantly obvious, which is which.
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Post by ozboomer on Apr 26, 2011 7:54:07 GMT -5
The next development in the SimpleMod stream has recently been posted... "SimpleMod-h" is another fairly simple design, that is about doing some "fixing-up" rather than introducing something new; the end result is probably little more than a "standard Stratocaster wiring" BUT! it includes a GFS Dream 90 in the Bridge position, there is a "treble bleed" treatment of the Volume control, it includes a "Modified G&L Legacy" tone control system and there is a "Neck On" switch. ...and thus endeth the SimpleMod series. For now. After about 18 months of development and construction of (more-or-less) 8 "simple"(!) wiring layouts, I've discovered most of what I set-out to find... and I have to laugh that it predominantly ends-up being that I like the Standard Wiring best of all(!), albeit with some tone/volume control changes. For me, and the styles of playing that I'm interested in pursuing, it appears I don't really need the series/out-of-phase/etc combinations and I just prefer the plain ol' bright and sparkly Strat sound... but for sure, I think I still need to do some more with changing the pickups I have installed (although, humbuckers are still going to be a bit strong/complex for what I want to do, I think). So no more posting of wiring designs for now... unless I reckon I've found something magical Just some hacking away within the designs I've already worked-out and some manipulations with pickups.. ...at least, until I get my JungleMaster (likely) or Jazzmaster (lottery win territory) As always, many thanks to everyone who pitched-in with excellent ideas and contributions to the development effort.. 'twas (and IS) very much appreciated. Now, where were we? Hmm... "COWABUNGA!" rings a bell... John "...part of the latest generation of his line of guitar modders... Nemesis of wayward tone controls everywhere, he works _alone_ (sometimes)......"
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Post by ozboomer on Jul 3, 2011 22:09:50 GMT -5
As part of the development of the SimpleMod series of wiring arrangements, I more-or-less decided on a modified G&L Legacy tone control system. The main feature of this is to provide a "bass cut" pot, to remove some of the "bass" frequencies (actually, mid-range, I think) from the overal output of the guitar. I've noticed something strange, though, in a recent installation of the tone control in a guitar with AlNiCo 5 pickups... When the "bass cut" pot is fully clockwise, the signal is relatively quiet and the full range of frequencies pass through to the output. However, as this pot is rotated anti-clockwise, cutting some of the mid-range frequencies from the output, I start to hear more noise coming through in the output (it's sort-of like you get if there's no/insufficient grounding in a circuit). With the pot fully anti-clockwise, the sound is fairly thin (expected) and the noise level is "up" a bit. With the thin output, I also have the guitar volume almost on "10". If I modify things so that the guitar output is only on "3" and I use my simple booster to get the level up to what I want it to be, the noise from the guitar is much improved... nor is the effect as pronounced on single-coil guitars that have Ceramic pickups... but I still want to try and understand why turning the "bass cut" pot anti-clockwise increases the level of noise. For easier reference, I've reproduced the overall circuit diagram of the guitar wiring here (click the image to enlarge): Thanks for any forthcoming insights. John
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Post by newey on Jul 3, 2011 23:11:29 GMT -5
As the operation of turning down a pot should not ordinarily be noisy, I would suspect a dodgy pot, unless you've had the same results using 2 or more different pots in there.
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Post by ozboomer on Jul 4, 2011 2:31:50 GMT -5
As the operation of turning down a pot should not ordinarily be noisy, I would suspect a dodgy pot, unless you've had the same results using 2 or more different pots in there. I thought of that... together with the fact that pot behaves like it's a linear taper, when it's supposed to be a log taper (and this, with a US-quarter-size CTS pot)... ...but the real bug is that it happens on another guitar/circuit as well (although, not to as great an extent). This is why I'm puzzling about the circuit bringing in the noise, whether there's a hanging hot or something.. 'coz I triple-checked the wiring against the circuit diagram.. and I'm confident it's wired Ok.
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Post by sumgai on Jul 4, 2011 2:34:27 GMT -5
ozzy, 5Spice it out, and you'll find that you've got a variable notch filter, with the knee located right about the critical frequency of your power line, meaning 50Hz or thereaboots..... Use a 60Hz power source from some other country, and your troubles should disappear.... ;D HTH sumgai
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Post by roadtonever on Jul 4, 2011 4:30:01 GMT -5
Something of interest I came across today during my research for modification options in the SimpleMod series... I wonder if any of our esteemed Nutz has tried this: Upgrading Your PickupsDirectly modifying the pickups seems to be a relatively high-risk approach... but for some "cheap'n'nasty" pickups, I wonder if it would work out to be a good/useful option? I see a couple of issues, on the face of it:- - You are destroying the basic structure of the pickup; if you don't get the pole pieces replaced, your pickup is broken. Kinda drastic.
- Hitting the pole pieces with a hammer of any sort would be a worry. Magnetic material tends to be sort-of brittle anyway, so I think I'd be using something like a vise-grip/pliers -type of thing to push the poles into place, rather than hitting 'em. Also, hitting them would make the magnetism go crazy (I think... That might be my crazy memory playing tricks on me - urban legends and such(!)).
- I'm not sure about using the 'rare-earth' magnets. I used to do magnetizing by having a magnet hit a screwdriver, for example, and then you slide it off the end... and repeat. It certainly got some magnetism into the screwdriver but I don't know how you'd effectively get the magnetism into the pickup poles.
Of even more concern is how you'd get the magnetism/flux strength to be consistent across each of the poles; if one pole is "weak" and another is "strong", you're going to have all sorts of uneven-ness in the sound coming through the pickup... don't you think?
- Where in the heck are you going to get magnetic pole pieces anyway? I don't even know what to look for (pickup pole pieces?)... let alone in various compositions (al-2, al-3 i dunno... al-5 is probably ok...maybe)... and then, the old problem of the USA-made and non-USA-made pickups have all these differing (non-standard) standards, of pole pitch, pickup width, etc... So I fully expect the dimensions of the pole pieces are going to be totally variable as well.
Perhaps it's all that much easier to let the pickup manufacturers worry about all this... and just lash-out on a cheap-o set of pickups... Pfft. Oh... and is it a reliable "indicator" that the "bar magnets" at the bottom of the pickup means you're looking at a ceramic magnet pickup? Do Alnico (or otherwise) pickups only have magnetized pole pieces? Interested in your thoughts, folks... Just had to chime in on this one. It might be worthwhile if you have some pickups lying around which you wouldn't mind re-purposing. That and a cheap source for the rods. If you're starting from ceramic pickup which you install alnico rods on like in the video you'd end up with a more Fenderey recipe. I'd buy buy a few different types or alnico rod to try out plugged in. The higher alnico rods will have more output and treble. As for trying rare earth magnets that would be going in the opposite direction of the alnico mod. You'd get more output, more highs, more everything. This requires more tight tolerances on the amount of winds around the bobbin to get an acceptable end result. Without the possibility of adjusting the amount of wire around the bobbin it might not worthwhile. If you'd want to try it anyway a good way might be using small discs of neodymium or samarium underneath steel rods. That's how the Fender SCN are designed and it moderates the strong magnetic pull on the strings. But I'm just pigeoning what I read in forums. I never wound a pickup in my life but wouldn't mind trying some day. Anyway, If you really want to do this I'd recommend checking out the Pickup makers forum and beware of grumpy old farts that reside there....
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Post by ozboomer on Jul 4, 2011 7:32:17 GMT -5
5Spice it out, and you'll find that you've got a variable notch filter, with the knee located right about the critical frequency of your power line, meaning 50Hz or thereaboots..... ;D Mannnnn, if there's a narrow band of sumfin' that will make things go wrong, I'll find it. "Born under a bad sign... ... If it wasn't for bad luck, I wouldn't have no luck at all"Oh well.. on with it. Instead of getting out the 15,000 mile power lead I think I'll try and find another cap, I guess, that cuts the bass how I like but DOESN'T misbehave with our 50Hz power supply, huh? ...and o'course, the USA-based folk who tried this didn't have these troubles 'coz they never went below 0.002uF (2000pF compared to my 470pF) with their caps, eh? My work at the drawing board never ceases ...
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Post by JohnH on Jul 4, 2011 15:33:06 GMT -5
but I still want to try and understand why turning the "bass cut" pot anti-clockwise increases the level of noise. Thanks for any forthcoming insights. John Hi Oz - i think its just an effect due to the bass-cut position resulting in a much higher impedance output from the guitar. At max bass and max volume, the pickup is directly to the output, but at min bass theres a 1M pot in series. That makes the output more vulnerable to any extraneous noises that may be picked up. When you reduce volume, the volume pot starts to reduce the output resistance as its ground leg becomes a smaller resistance, so that may be helping in that case, with your booster. Things to do about it: shield all guitar wiring if not already, and maybe a buffer in the guitar may help, to lower output impedance. cheers John
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Post by ozboomer on Jul 17, 2011 7:21:34 GMT -5
"And another thing..." --What's My Scene, Hoodoo Gurus After the adventures I've had with "out-of-phase" (OOP) and winding issues in recent mods (see SimpleMod-e, SimpleMod-g and SimpleMod-h)... and with thoughts such as detailed in an associated discussion, I was thinking again ( not good for me, I know )... Conceivably, with much swapping of pickup positions when mounting pickups in a pickguard, I could end-up with noise-cancelling and/or OOP sounds when I don't want them... and I might not be able to achieve the noise-cancelling/OOP sounds I would like with the pickups I have. Now, would it possible (advisable?) to try and fiddle with the magnetism on a pickup to help get the hum-cancelling I might like AND maintain the "in-phase" sounds? 'tis just that I'm finding that if I order a set of Strat pickups (B+M+N) from somewhere and then substitute an unrelated pickup into one of the positions (B, for example, with a different single coil pickup), all the OOP and noise-cancelling arrangements can go out the window, as the polarity and winding configuration are then totally different... and I have to go through all the heartache as described in the " associated discussion," above. So, what do you think? Try and butcher the magnetism of the "odd" pickup (perhaps, using some magnets a la StewMac), should I try to get the seller to match the pickups for my application (nigh on impossible, I would think) or go the equivalent of a "Pickup Custom Shop" and fully spec the pickups ($$$)... ...or just forget the whole idea and put it down to temporary insanity for even thinking of the option!? Fanx! for any thoughts, as always... John
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Post by newey on Jul 17, 2011 19:33:05 GMT -5
It's easier to flip the magnets (in my understanding, mind you, Haven't performed this bit of surgery myself yet) on some pickups than on others. We've had some discussion about doing this in the past.
If you want to use an "odd man out" pickup, and the dice come up craps on polarity, then you really don't have any other choices- either live with no hum cancellation (just like a vintage Strat, IOW) or flip the magnet(s).
Or, bite the bullet, buy a matched set of noise-free SCs like the Kinmans, and forget the whole meshugganah mess.
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Post by JohnH on Jul 17, 2011 22:22:48 GMT -5
I' ve done magnet flippage on humbuckers - not too hard to do to spin the bar magnet beneath. Also on some ceramic sc's, which involved carefully prying the single bar magnet from beneath and regluing. In each case, the coil wires also got swapped to maintain signal phase while inverting hum phase on each coil.
What I'm not sure about is how to do that to alnico sc's, with 6 seperate magnet bars. I don't know whether it is possible to extract each one and push it back in the other way round.
cheers
John
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