megi
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Post by megi on Aug 24, 2011 4:47:36 GMT -5
Hi everyone - this is my first post on this forum - I've modded the wiring on a few of my guitars in the past couple of years, but still feel a bit like a novice at this stuff, so bare with me if I get any terminology or other stuff wrong! I'm currently building a telecaster from parts, which will have 3-pickups i.e. a standard telecaster set, plus a middle strat type pickup. The strat pickup is RWRP to the neck pickup - so that the neck plus middle, and neck plus bridge combinations will be hum-cancelling. I want to have a circuit that allows for all 7 parallel pickup combinations (the normal "strat" ones plus neck/bridge and all 3 pickups) plus also give neck plus middle in series, and neck plus bridge in series. I want to have standard master volume and tone controls, and I'm not keen on push-pull pots, so I'm looking at something like a 5-way pickup selector switch, plus 1 or 2 additional mini-switches. I've been trying to figure out a circuit but can't seem to get there, I'm hoping someone here will be able to help - I'd be very grateful, and thanks for reading!
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Post by newey on Aug 24, 2011 6:12:59 GMT -5
Megi- Hello and Welcome to G-Nutz2! Lots of possibilities for what you want to do. Unfortunately, I couldn't lay my hands on the exact scheme you want; I got several close cousins for you to peruse, though. The one I can't find uses what we refer to as a "Neck On" scheme. A DPDT 3-position "On-On-On" toggle switch is used in conjunction with a regular Strat 5-way switch. The three switch positions do as follows: one turns the neck pickup on in parallel with the 5-way, another puts the neck in series with the 5-way selection, and the third bypasses the switch to the 5-way to give the normal Strat combos. This allows for the N+B, all 3 pickups in parallel, and neck in series with either the mid or the bridge. It also adds N*(B+M), which you didn't indicate you wanted but which I assume would not be objectional to you. A diagram to do that is around somewhere here, just gotta unearth it from the basement . . . But there are numerous other options. Here's two schemes for you to ponder using the 5-way Superswitch™: JohnH's Strat 5+5ChrisK's S-tastically Hyperventilated TeletypeThis one uses a DPDT only, in conjunction with either a Superswitch or other switching. Page down to see the versions for a regular 5-way. One version uses a Schaller Megaswitch "E", which substitutes N+B at position 3, if you can live without mid only at that position. ChrisK's "3 single coils and the "S-None" SwitchNote that several of these use P/P pots, but a DPDT toggle can always be substituted for a P/P pot if one dislikes those. "Push/Push" pots are also available, which some of our members use instead of "Push/Pull"s for less fiddly switching. That'll give you some things to contemplate while I hunt for the "neck on" diagram.
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Post by JohnH on Aug 24, 2011 8:29:45 GMT -5
Here's another that might be good: Strat SPLose the third pot if not wanted, and use toggles instead of push pulls John
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megi
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Post by megi on Aug 24, 2011 10:15:58 GMT -5
Guys, thank you so much - this is a wealth of riches for me to peruse. I have to say I feel like even more of a novice at this point, the expertise here is pretty obvious to see. I hope to learn though, given time. How you are able to conceive of some of these circuits is beyond me! Newey, if you can find that missing circuit, I think it probably would be the one I would go for - but if not I think I could live quite happily with one of the super-switch based circuits (and I have got a spare super-switch handy) - will just have to carefully widen the control cavity to allow it to fit though. This is a very impressive place though, wish I'd found it before now, cheers!
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Post by JohnH on Aug 25, 2011 22:31:00 GMT -5
If that circuit cant be found, we can reinvent it. it would be a very useful and simple design and can be done quite cleanly with a standard 5-way John
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megi
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Post by megi on Aug 26, 2011 3:24:43 GMT -5
Thank you John - the more I think about things, the "neck on" really is the circuit I want. To explain, I play a lot of jazz, so tend to favour pickup combinations that utilise the neck pickup. And I speculate that both neck/middle and neck/bridge in series would be good for warmer, thicker sounding jazz tones.
Anyway, I'm going to order an on-on-on DPDT switch (for some reason, I ordered an on-off-on originally) and see if I can figure out the neck-on circuit - knowing it exists/is possible, and the description of how it operates helps, and at least points me in the right direction I think. Although if someone here is able to get there first and post a diagram that would be most welcome! ;D
Looking at all the other amazing circuits described on this site makes me want to start new projects though - only problem is I don't have enough guitars!
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Post by JohnH on Aug 26, 2011 4:38:31 GMT -5
I'd be happy to sketch a schematic. I can do that tomorrow - there's a trick or two that I think this circuit should have. A schematic shows what is connected to what, but it is theoretical and not intended to look like the real thing. From there, it is then a good idea to make a clear diagram of how the wiring actually looks - that's the next step. cheers John
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Post by newey on Aug 26, 2011 4:38:58 GMT -5
megi-
I'm still looking for that, and I did find a reference by JohnH that said it was possible. I took a quick shot at drawing it up, but wasn't able to get it worked out- that doesn't mean it can't be done, just that I didn't have enough time to really delve into it.
So we're clear, what megi wants is an ON-ON-ON toggle to give:
1) Neck on in series with 5-way 2) Bypass to 5-way setting 3) Neck on in parallel with 5-way.
EDIT: Ninja'd by JohnH! If he says it can be done, I'll look at it again later today.
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Post by sumgai on Aug 26, 2011 11:36:09 GMT -5
megi, What you want is possible, but there's gonna be a very big glitch, if'n you don't watch out...... Putting the Neck in series with the selector switch, which presumably also has the Neck, leads to a "short circuit" condition. Depending on which of the two switches is closer to the output jack, that kills the output from either just the Neck pup, or from everything. Bad ju-u. The easiest way to avoid that is to simply eliminate the Neck pup from the selector switch altogether. But you'll now want to replace the selector switch with a standard Tele-style 3-position unit, which gives you M, M+B and B. Your DPDT is wired such that it controls the Neck hot lead on one pole, and the Mid and Bridge grounds on the other pole, thus delivering N+selector, N only, or N*selector. I suspect that if the Neck pup must be selectable via the 5-way selector switch, then the DPDT won't do the job, it'll have to be a 4PDT. Or, if one is of a mind, a superswitch could also be used. Either way, a 4P switch is in the offing here, sorry to say. Interesingly enough, a pair of Tele-style 3-way switches will work as described above, giving rise to an interesting-looking axe..... Or to completely discombobulate the unwary viewer (a player who thinks he knows about guitars.....), a pair of standard DPDT toggles will control the three pickups. Can't you just hear it now: "Dude, wheres your 5-way switch?" ;D HTH sumgai ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ EDITed to add: megi - to the NutzHouse! (Sorry, my manners are still in my not-yet-empty morning cuppa!)
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megi
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Post by megi on Aug 26, 2011 13:15:03 GMT -5
sumgai - does the short circuit only happen when the 5-way includes the neck pickup, and the mini switch is set to add the neck in series? And if so, does it just mean you have switch settings that harmlessly result in no output from the guitar? I could probably live with that. But if there are bigger problems, then I guess not. I do have the super-switch in reserve if needed, so if I could get what I'm after with the super switch and the DPDT switch I would go for that. I am interested to see what JohnH and newey come up with though. Again can I say cheers to you guys for taking an interest in my question - I doubt there is anywhere else on the web where I could have found such help.
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Post by JohnH on Aug 26, 2011 16:49:36 GMT -5
This set of controls strikes me as being a very simple and sensible mod to add to our collection, so well worth documenting. This is what I was thinking of, in schematic form: So, S1 is the standard 5-way. S2 is the dpdt on-on-on, which is shown in its centre position, in which case S1 provides the standard Strat selections: (N, N+M, M, M+B, B). Push the toggle down to force the neck on (N, N+M, M+N, N+M+B, N+B) Push the toggle up to put neck in series in the last three positions: (N, N, NxM, Nx(M+B), NxB) It is N only in positions 1 and 2. I've labelled the toggle switch lugs 1 to 6 and the 5-way A to H, to relate to the views at the back of the switches. Some extra features shown in the diagram: The second half of the 5-way is used to disconnect unused ground-side connections on B and M pickups. This is so they do not hang from the hot side of the neck in series mode, picking up extra interference (debatable, but I think this is worth doing, and there is no need for any special parts since the 5-way has two sides) I showed the lower tone pot lug connected so that in series mode, at max tone, the neck pup is bypassed by the tone cap. This makes a whole new set of tones with neck bass and bright bridge/middle coming through. Turn the tone pot down slightly to return to normal. THis feature has no effect except in series mode, so the tone action in parallel modes is normal. When in series mode, if you select N only, it will be fully toned down - could be usefull for jazz. If this feature is not wanted, just delete the lower tone pot connection. Treble bleed circuit on the volume pot, to preserve highs when volume is reduced - can be omitted if not wanted. I'm showing 500k pots. These will load the pickups less than 250k, which is helpful in the series mode. If the parallel mode is too bright, just keep the tone pot down a bit. cheers John
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Post by sumgai on Aug 26, 2011 17:16:14 GMT -5
megi,
In the midst of writing my answer, JohnH ninja'd me. I was gonna go in a different direction to accomplish the goal, but as usual, John thought 'outside of the box', and achieved the desired end result. Not to mention he also posted a diagram before I could.... (I'm writing this in between passes of the long-arm quilting machine... business is good just now, almost too good!)
sumgai
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megi
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Post by megi on Aug 26, 2011 17:37:28 GMT -5
This set of controls strikes me as being a very simple and sensible mod to add to our collection, so well worth documenting. This is what I was thinking of, in schematic form: So, S1 is the standard 5-way. S2 is the dpdt on-on-on, which is shown in its centre position, in which case S1 provides the standard Strat selections: (N, N+M, M, M+B, B). Push the toggle down to force the neck on (N, N+M, M+N, N+M+B, N+B) Push the toggle up to put neck in series in the last three positions: (N, N, NxM, Nx(M+B), NxB) It is N only in positions 1 and 2. I've labelled the toggle switch lugs 1 to 6 and the 5-way A to H, to relate to the views at the back of the switches. Some extra features shown in the diagram: The second half of the 5-way is used to disconnect unused ground-side connections on B and M pickups. This is so they do not hang from the hot side of the neck in series mode, picking up extra interference (debatable, but I think this is worth doing, and there is no need for any special parts since the 5-way has two sides) I showed the lower tone pot lug connected so that in series mode, at max tone, the neck pup is bypassed by the tone cap. This makes a whole new set of tones with neck bass and bright bridge/middle coming through. Turn the tone pot down slightly to return to normal. THis feature has no effect except in series mode, so the tone action in parallel modes is normal. When in series mode, if you select N only, it will be fully toned down - could be usefull for jazz. If this feature is not wanted, just delete the lower tone pot connection. Treble bleed circuit on the volume pot, to preserve highs when volume is reduced - can be omitted if not wanted. I'm showing 500k pots. These will load the pickups less than 250k, which is helpful in the series mode. If the parallel mode is too bright, just keep the tone pot down a bit. cheers John John thank you so much - that's just terrific, and I like the thoughtful additional tweaks and features you have put in - I would never have thought of this stuff in a month of sundays. I'm with you on the 500K pots - it all sounds eminently sensible, plus I think I like your idea for the tone mod in series mode, I'll have to consider things, but it sounds an interesting expansion of the guitar's capability. If I've helped inspire a useful circuit addition for the collection I'm very glad about that - I guess you can say that the circuit has been in response to some genuine playing requirements that I have, and I imagine some others would perhaps share. But really cheers again for taking the time to do this, it has made a difference for me which means a lot.
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megi
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Post by megi on Aug 26, 2011 17:44:03 GMT -5
megi, In the midst of writing my answer, JohnH ninja'd me. I was gonna go in a different direction to accomplish the goal, but as usual, John thought 'outside of the box', and achieved the desired end result. Not to mention he also posted a diagram before I could.... (I'm writing this in between passes of the long-arm quilting machine... business is good just now, almost too good!) sumgai No problems sumgai, and good to know John's circuit has your approval. Really the whole discussion has been very interesting for me - I have a lot to learn about designing guitar circuits and feel somewhat out of my depth here!, but one thing I do know is I would not have come up with anything half as good on my own! I think for now I will concentrate on getting that circuit installed and working nicely, and be happy that I came here for advice.
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Post by newey on Aug 26, 2011 19:21:54 GMT -5
Here's a wiring diagram for JohnH's neck on scheme, for those who are schematically challenged. . I think this is OK, but please someone check it.
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megi
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Post by megi on Aug 27, 2011 6:38:55 GMT -5
Here's a wiring diagram for JohnH's neck on scheme, for those who are schematically challenged. . I think this is OK, but please someone check it. Thank you for the diagram newey - should prove useful. I haven't had chance to convert John's schematic into my own diagram yet, but hopefully it will look like yours (or I suspect I will have gone wrong!). I do feel somewhat guilty - I've kind of used this forum as a free resource - but hope I can add something in the future. I do think John's circuit is pretty neat though, there is an appealing economy to it - i.e. it gets a lot from just a standard 5-way and one mini-switch, which I like a lot.
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Post by sumgai on Aug 27, 2011 16:02:44 GMT -5
John,
Why did you connect the lower terminal of the Tone pot to the common of S1b? To me, that would seem to add an extra, and unwanted, load on whichever pickups are selected (except the Neck when in series)....
sumgai
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Post by JohnH on Aug 27, 2011 16:06:32 GMT -5
You are welcome. I think you have enough there to go on with the two diagrams. If your build will be based on a Tele, then I'd assume you might lay out the controls all in line? - and if you do a diagram before building, its good to base it on your intended control positions so you can plan out the shortest routes for connections.
Don't worry about using the forum - most of the new designs start with people coming in with questions about how to do something. If you build it - tell us how it goes and what you think of it, and photos and sound clips are always appreciated. cheers John
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Post by JohnH on Aug 27, 2011 16:32:11 GMT -5
John, Why did you connect the lower terminal of the Tone pot to the common of S1b? To me, that would seem to add an extra, and unwanted, load on whichever pickups are selected (except the Neck when in series).... sumgai That connection is the key to the 'neck-bypassed by cap' feature that the tone control has at a setting of 10, in series mode. But in Parallel mode, that connection is grounded. So the issue is, does that extra grounded connection (as compared to a normal tone control ) on the third tone pot lug make any difference? - and in fact it does not. At high tone settings, the tone cap has much lower impedance than the tone pot, so whether the tone pot is grounded only through the cap, or directly through its third lug makes no sigificant difference. 5Spice confirms this, but as an example, take a frequency of say 3kHz. The 22nF tone cap impedance is only 2.4k, so in combination with the 500k pot, the net load across the pickups due to the tone circuit is sqrt(2.4^2+500^2) = 500.006k ie, no difference as compared to the pot alone. John
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Post by sumgai on Aug 29, 2011 4:08:18 GMT -5
John, After a moment, I recollected that whole bypass-with-a-cap discussion from some time ago, and saw your point. I have to admit that I was gonna grouse about your circuit being locked in stone - one can't elect to not have the neck-bypass.... but I've decided that it's really a small issue, and hereby withdraw any objections I may have inadvertantly intimated. For those playing along at home...... With the Tone control at 10 and the switch set to series mode, the bypass cap will shunt some of the higher frequencies from the Neck pup to ground. In effect, this means that we will hear the brighter high frequencies of only the selected pickup (Mid and/or Bridge), and not the high frequencies from the Neck. At the same time, both/all 3 pickups will be heard in the lower frequency registers, more or less as we'd usually expect to hear them. The net effect is that when playing higher up on the neck, we tend to hear a brighter tone than we'd normally get with a multiple-series setup. When playing down near the nut, and on the lower strings, we tend to hear a tone with much more bass in it. Hearing the actual effect is much more dramatic than this explanation. sumgai
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Post by JohnH on Aug 29, 2011 5:35:24 GMT -5
All cool sumgai, and if this neck bypass effect is not liked, just removing that one wire connection to the 3rd tone pot lug will return it to a normal tone control with no extra work needed. On my ibanez strat, my three favorite sounds are NxM with tone at 10 (ie, with the bypass cap), same with tone at 9 (bypass cap not effective, =normal series sound), and bridge.
John
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megi
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Post by megi on Aug 29, 2011 7:02:12 GMT -5
Guys, actually thinking about things I do have a question - originally when planning my guitar I bought a Fender TBX tone control to use - I guess I envisaged a more standard wiring circuit with the TBX to hopefully expand the tonal range a bit. But will the TBX tone work OK/well with your circuit JohnH? I'm happy to ditch it if not! but just wondering on this, and what you think of the TBX tone control in general?
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Post by JohnH on Aug 29, 2011 7:14:39 GMT -5
Guys, actually thinking about things I do have a question - originally when planning my guitar I bought a Fender TBX tone control to use - I guess I envisaged a more standard wiring circuit with the TBX to hopefully expand the tonal range a bit. But will the TBX tone work OK/well with your circuit JohnH? I'm happy to ditch it if not! but just wondering on this, and what you think of the TBX tone control in general? Ive never tried one - it would work no doubt, but I don't know how it would sound. id need to consider a bit having found out the circuit for it.
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megi
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Post by megi on Aug 30, 2011 3:49:58 GMT -5
Guys, actually thinking about things I do have a question - originally when planning my guitar I bought a Fender TBX tone control to use - I guess I envisaged a more standard wiring circuit with the TBX to hopefully expand the tonal range a bit. But will the TBX tone work OK/well with your circuit JohnH? I'm happy to ditch it if not! but just wondering on this, and what you think of the TBX tone control in general? Ive never tried one - it would work no doubt, but I don't know how it would sound. id need to consider a bit having found out the circuit for it. Thanks John, not a big deal anyway - I may as well try it and find out - if I don't like it, it's easy enough to change to a regular tone pot. I'll be sure to let the forum know how the guitar turns out, and hopefully post a few sound clips and a couple of pics. Cheers again!
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megi
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Post by megi on Feb 4, 2012 17:16:15 GMT -5
Just to add to this thread - I did "kind of" complete the wiring job for the tele - I ran into a couple of minor issues with regard to needing separate ground wires to the bridge pickup bass plate and the neck pickup cover - easily fixed but I never quite got around to it! Also I modified JohnH's scheme to allow the use of a Fender TBX tone control, and thus did not include his "enhanced tone control" feature. Time moves on - as already reported, I recently finished a strat with the SP Strat circuit, including enhanced tone control. It all works and sounds just fantastic - IMO partly down to the pickups I used (from a handwinder on ebay) and partly down to the great way in which the circuit works. I love the enhanced tone feature - I find it more impressive and useful than Fender's TBX control which seemed rather lacklustre and disappointing. I felt a bit underwhelmed by the tonerider pickups I put in the guitar too... ...So, I have ordered a new "nashville tele" set from the same guy who make the pickups for the strat, and I'm going to do a rewire with John's neck-on nashville tele circuit, exactly as described in this thread. Should have trusted you in the first place John! ;D Also, since this thread contains a circuit design, should it be moved or linked to in/from the "General Guitar Schematics" subsection? - it is a great circuit, and I'd hate for someone who might appreciate it to miss it. EDIT: I think the "Nashville Neck-on" would be a good name.
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tigerose01
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Post by tigerose01 on May 9, 2012 10:31:28 GMT -5
Excellent post on adding the neck pickup with a 5-way. I've been looking to do this with a custom guitar with Strat pickups. The setup includes an effect loop that is driven by a unity gain buffer amp and a Stratoblaster in line after a 25k volume pot. When the buffer amp is out of line, everything works wellv as wired, but somehow with the buffer amp in line, the neck pickup switch is not altering the sound (as if it doesn't come on at all). Also, the volume knob response becomes bi-phasic with a peak at half volume. I have a second switch being used as a polarity reversal for the neck pickup, also which functions fine as the buffer amp is removed from the circuit. Any ideas what can be causing the failure?
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Post by reTrEaD on May 9, 2012 10:41:41 GMT -5
Greetings tigerose01, and welcome to Guitarnuts2. Feel free to start a new thread for your troubleshooting questions. They don't fit well with the current discussion, so things will get cluttered if we address them here. I'd suggest including a diagram of your wiring. See ya soon.
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