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Post by ashcatlt on Sept 2, 2008 16:19:46 GMT -5
I don't have it yet, but I'm pretty well decided that it's going to be my birthday present. Gonna get the black one (don't roll your eyes at me boy!) and eventually it will be a little brother of my 2HB0K behringer - complete with mirrored pickguard and l'il killers*. That, however, is at the end of a long list of other crap I need and/or want.
What I do have now is a single l'il killer mid pickup in white. Since I haven't figured out how to semi-permanently install this into my acoustic, why not jam it in this little thing?
Now this guitar only has 2 knobs, and I don't think there's much room to add one, so I'm not gonna be able to do exactly what I've got in there behringer. Here's my idea:
Put the HB in the middle position, and move the (presumably) RWRP middle pickup to neck or bridge. Replace the 2 knobs with 2P5T rotaries. These will select combinations of one of the outside pickups with the humbucking counterpart coil in the middle pickup.
The neck switch, for example, would do:
1 - off
2 - N
3 - N*M
4 - N+M
5 - M
The bridge switch will do the same, only I'm thinking of mirroring the positions, so that you turn each knob toward the pickup you want to select.
The 5-way switch gets yanked, and replaced with 3 DPDT switches, which provide combinations of the outputs of the rotaries. 1 for series/parallel, 1 to flip phase, 1 to kill the whole thing. The kill switch could be an SPST, but...
When I finally do get around to converting it to HHH, I'll now already have all the switches I need (I think).
The DPDTs become series/parallel for each individual HB (don't care about losing the single coil positions) and the rotaries get used to select combinations. I'm thinking one will control the combinations of 2 of the pickups, with the other combining the output of the first with the remaining pickup. I'm afraid I'll lose phase capabilities here, but not sure how much I'm going to mind. I'll have plenty of time to hear the difference.
Anybody got any comments, suggestions (which 2 pickups on the first rotary in version HHH?), or question (aside from WtF'nFO)?
* Assuming they fit without having to remove any wood.
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Post by newey on Sept 2, 2008 20:26:13 GMT -5
Ash-
When the "wants" become "needs", you've got G.A.S.! ;D
I assume that the lack of vol and tone pots is of no concern as this will be mostly for studio use? (I know you're a fully-credentialled studio rat!)
My regular-sized Strat rotary-switch project sits, gathering dust, while I decide whether to scrap the idea altogether or search for a smaller-sized rotary. I didn't really look closely at the physical dimensions of the switch when I ordered it; I should have done so. It would have fit fine where the V pot normally goes, but I wanted to keep the std Vol position for pinkie use- and fitting the switch into the narrower end of the cavity proved to be a huge problem.
The mini strat, I assume, will be even smaller in that area, so I advise you to hold off buying switches until you can carefully measure the cavity- then buy the smallest rotary switches you can find. And remember, a lot of wires go to that switch as compared to the pot that's there, you have to allow some leeway for the connections as well as the switch.
That said, it sounds like an interesting "preliminary" mod, preparatory to your grand HHH plan. I'm curious, though, your switching scheme indicates that the N*M and N+M are going to be combining the neck with only the single coil of the mid that is humbucking (and the other switch uses the opposite coil with the bridge, as I understand it). Is the "mid only" position going to be just the one coil as well, or will that be both middle coils?
I mean it seems to me that, having put the HB in the middle, you'd want to have the option to use it as a full HB somewhere in there.
And if it's both coils, then the bridge rotary and the neck rotary are going to have redundant middle positions- perhaps one could be mid coils parallel and the other mid in series, although I'm not sure that's a wireable option.
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Post by ashcatlt on Sept 2, 2008 21:27:05 GMT -5
The volume and tone go on the floor, where they belong. Just one coil in the M only postions. If I set both rotaries to M, I can choose internal S or P from the toggle. Thanks for the heads up on the switch size. For some reason I just assumed the general proportions in that area would almost have to be about the same as a standard sized strat, since I'm sure they don't pay extra for special parts. I mean, considering the price tag and all... On the other hand, a full-size strat sometimes has a little extra space, which might well be trimmed (or I guess, more wood would be left...) in this smaller version. Reminds me that I left out the answer to the * above, I'll edit that post so it makes a little more sense. And yeah, mostly studio work. Aren't too many venues that will let me do what I do. Even fewer that will let me come back. 
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Post by ashcatlt on Sept 2, 2008 21:34:10 GMT -5
While on my way to work today, I got to thinking that this was something like your 4caster thing. Upon review, it seems I've done something significantly different. |
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Post by newey on Sept 2, 2008 22:30:45 GMT -5
Got it. You sort of deconstruct the lil killer, only to reconstruct it in the end, via the use of 2 rotary switches and a DPDT! You're right, the 4Caster project is quite different, sort of an Uber-Strat, all parallel, all SC. That project is moving along, the holdup now is I need to buy 4 pickups. I want to use noiseless ones, so I'm looking at roughly $200 in pickups- gotta save up some kopecks!  As far as the size of the switches go, it's not just width but depth as well. If I recall, that mini body is a bit thinner than a regular Strat, too. It probably can be done, just needs more forethought than I had when choosing the switches. And I personally have nothing against black guitars. It's just that they're so ubiquitous among the goth/thrash/metal crowd, you're practically stigmatized once you pull it out of the case. |
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Post by ChrisK on Sept 3, 2008 11:45:47 GMT -5
Pretend that I haven't been paying close attention; what is the switching function that you need for this? It's the transparent ones that I just can't see............ So I was fitting possible mini toggle switch locations for the P-Rail(s) TeleCopy project. I'd found that the Tele replacement body rear rout cavity is identical to the Strat replacement body rear rout cavity which I have captured in Auto CAD, so I do it virtually first. The orange components are of a standard Tele control layout.  I only need four switches (two DP3T and two 4P3T three position ON-ON-ON mini toggles), but sure enough I thought...... "dang, I can fit more than a dozen toggle switches in this cavity." "What else could I possibly do......" This compulsive (re)wiring dementia that we have really is a full-blown mental illness.   |
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Post by newey on Sept 3, 2008 16:39:26 GMT -5
Chris- Here was the way-too-long thread on that. But I'm pretty well decided on a tone pot w/ push/pull instead, for the reasons indicated: guitarnuts2.proboards45.com/index.cgi?board=wiring&action=display&thread=1801&page=4But, let's not get away from Ash's idea here, which I think is wonderfully demented! Paraphrasing (I think) George Clinton: "Free your Volume and Tone controls and your mind will follow!" Or sumpin' |
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Post by ChrisK on Sept 3, 2008 18:02:14 GMT -5
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Post by newey on Sept 3, 2008 19:46:52 GMT -5
 (I know, too obvious a comeback . . .but I couldn't resist  |
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Post by lpf3 on Sept 3, 2008 22:23:52 GMT -5
What ? just got here .... Somebody lookin for clearcaster parts ?  ;D -lpf3 I figured this would photograph about as good as Wonderwoman's airplane . |
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Post by ashcatlt on Sept 3, 2008 23:22:22 GMT -5
Those are cool switches. Especially the concentric shafts. The adjustable ones would be great for expandability. They look to be quite a bit better quality than the ones I've been using. Not sure I want to get that far ($$$) into it, though. Unless of course they're the only ones which want to fit.
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Post by ChrisK on Sept 4, 2008 12:01:55 GMT -5
Forget the concentric shaft ones, they tend to be around $50 to $100. Surplus, they're around $25. When I want a concentric pot/switch, I buy a concentric pot and use the inner shaft to a rotary wafer in lieu of the back pot element. It's clunky, but invisible. When you look at the $10 StewMac ones, the additional $10 for Grayhill buys one all gold contacts, a military reliability heritage, and a svelte footprint. I like them.  ....and their military cousins (8P3T 1/8" shaft).  |
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Post by ashcatlt on Sept 16, 2008 23:24:00 GMT -5
transparent...can't see...still kills me! So, it arrived today. It's a pretty nice little, very playable guitar. Not as small as I pictured it, but about exactly the size I expected it to be.  It seems to be okay with being tuned up to A (standard+5), at least with the stock strings. In standard tuning it feels and sounds loose. At +5 it feels a little tight, kind of like when I tune my LP (with 11's) up to +1 (F), but it sounds great there. Neither neck nor strings have snapped - yet... I bought with it a few 12 string sets from Ernie Ball. They start at 11. This guitar is eventually going to get the "extra strings" from this set, while the "normal strings" (with the wound G) go on the LP. I don't see any point in restring it now, when I'm going to be rewiring (and therefore restringing) in a week or so, anyway. I did immediately remove the pickguard. It appears that the same switches I used on the Behringer will fit. At worst, I'll have to move the Switch Formerly Known as a Tone Control toward that which was Formerly Volume. There's plenty of room for that, though. While I was in there, I was also investigating this question from the TapeOp forum where dude wonders why his (sons  ) mini-strat is quieter than his "real guitar". I posted my findings over there, but the gist is that the pickup/control cavity (one big route) is coated with conductive paint which is, in fact, connected to the jack sleeve. Not much foil on the pickguard, but I can remedy that situation. |
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Post by ChrisK on Sept 17, 2008 11:53:30 GMT -5
Fortunately, Wonder Woman's airplane didn't have a restroom.
(The plane was transparant, the occupants weren't.)
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Post by ashcatlt on Sept 17, 2008 12:50:50 GMT -5
I'd be willing to bet there's people out there would pay to see Wonder Woman take a crap. Covers two kinks in one!
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Post by ashcatlt on Sept 23, 2008 16:25:50 GMT -5
Ack! I think I should have researched this further before I ordered the parts! Now that I've got the switches, I sat down to paint myself something to follow when I actually get down to soldering. Now I'm noticing that the off position of the rotaries seems to leave their outputs (the 2 wires which go off to the master S/P toggle) open. This seems to mean that if one of the rotaries is in the off position, and the toggle is in series mode, I'll have no output, at least in a number of positions of the other rotary. If it helps, I'm using this:  posted by sumgai in several posts aboard. I have the option of just not connecting anything to the fifth position on each side of the switch, but that didn't work on my Behringer. I found that I had to short across each coil to get total silence. Either way, though, I can't seem to find a way to connect the two output wires. Can it be done with just 2 poles? Please tell me I'm missing something! I guess it's not a HUGE deal, but it's annoying. I'd like to be able to hand the thing to somebody without a printed manual. |
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Post by ashcatlt on Oct 12, 2008 16:13:24 GMT -5
Just a quick update.
I slapped it together over the last couple days. Added aluminum foil to the pickguard. Couldn't think of a way to have this make reliable physical contact the conductive paint in the cavity, but it is connected via a wire soldered to the washer (poor man's ring terminal) around one of the rotaries. Since it's a very tight fit in that cavity, I had the bright idea to slather the area where switch lugs might touch with non-conductive acrylic paint. For the most part it reads a very high resistance, but I think it might need another coat.
Seemed to be working fine until I actually tightened all the screws in the pickguard. Now the phase switch kills the whole thing when flipped, unless I jiggle it, and then I'm not sure quite what I'm getting.
Also, I know that I chose the correct humbucking combinations, but the middle in series with itself has a very large amount of hum. It's fine in parallel, and I don't notice it that bad with other combinations. It's probably just a cold solder somewhere, but I'm afraid I may have connected the wrong coil to the "bottom" of the series structure. Shouldn't matter, right?
And it turns out that it works fine in Nashville tuning with the "extra" set from a 12-string electric set starting at 11. Doesn't feel or sound loose at all. Desperately needs action adjustment and intonation. Any good links for this? I'm sure I understand how and why intonation adjustments work, but I've never been able to get satisfactory results.
Even with all that, there's a bunch of great sounds here. So, I'll have to pull it back apart... I shot a picture of the wiring, and I'll post it soon, but it's such a bowl of spaghetti you'll never figure out what's going where. I've got a diagram too, and already have an idea for a recording project to show off at least some of it's combinations. Of course, I'm married with children, so it could be months before that comes together.
Damn wife, damn job, damn life!
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Post by newey on Oct 12, 2008 16:26:56 GMT -5
It's deja vu all over again! Same problem I had with the ill-fated rotary in the white Strat I finished recently. It all worked fine until I tightened the guard down . . . Somethings a-shorting in there against the cavity, or against another component. I was using a layer of electrical tape over the shielding in the area of the switch, but your paint idea is better since it's thinner than tape for crowded quarters. Me neither. That's why I 'm willing to pay $20 to get it done right. I could easily futz with the action and intonation for a couple of hours; the tech I use can do it quickly and accurately. My time is worth more than the $20 he charges for set up work. But somewheres I do have a couple of bookmarks on intonation, I'll have to dig 'em out of the archives . . . Happy troubleshooting! And, as far as "damned life" goes, my great uncle used to say: "Well, it's better than a poke in the eye with a sharp stick . . ."  But, then again, he was from Wisconsin. ;D |
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Post by D2o on Oct 14, 2008 9:42:44 GMT -5
Deja vu, indeed. Including a dog's breakfast of electrical tape over my handsome shielding in order to solve the problem.
Now that you mention it, the only time that I have ever had such problems is the one time I shielded with copper foil.
I am not saying it may not have happened to me even if I had used aluminum that time ... but ... well ... anytime I have used aluminum, it didn't happen to me and I have had at least as much of the benefits of shielding.
What shielding material were yous guys yousing? Out of curiosity, has anyone else had negative experiences with copper shielding?
D2o
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Post by ashcatlt on Oct 14, 2008 13:53:13 GMT -5
I'm very close to Wisconsin. Here in MN, the highest compliment one ever gives is "It doesn't suck." Well, this guitar certainly doesn't suck! The rotaries were working fine. I got it open and found that the phase toggle had actually scraped away some of the acrylic paint I'd applied. Maybe I should have been a little more patient and actually allowed a day or two to dry fully. Aw well. Electrical tape fixed it all up. While I was in there, I noticed that the junction of the black wire from the middle pickup with the little extender wire that goes to the switch had come out of its nest of tape, or possibly got overlooked the other night. Anyway, a little tape there, too. Not sure which of these fixed the hum problem, but everything works just fine now. Boy, B-M is nasty! So's that M-M. I'm sure I'll find something to do with them. To answer D2o, I used aluminum foil on the pickgaurd. The interior of the cavity came from the factory sprayed with conductive paint. |
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Post by ChrisK on Oct 14, 2008 13:53:14 GMT -5
Well I would find the latter to be demented, but the former....
Hmmm, a woman with a """"golden lasso"""" that makes men tell the truth,
man, that's just reality.
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Post by ashcatlt on Oct 18, 2008 12:58:49 GMT -5
Here's the photographic evidence. Wasn't a great shot to begin with. I tried to "enhance" it just a bit. This was before the jack and cavity were connected. The bridge has a wire that disappears in the direction of the jack, which I have confirmed is in fact soldered in over there somwhere.  Don't try to sort out the wiring from this, cause you'll probably hurt yourself! Here's the schematic from which it was wired.  The M + and - wires are labeled incorrectly. I caught that before I started soldering, but didn't fix the pic. I'm not going to show you a shot of the front of the pickguard for the same reason I don't really want to take it in for a setup. I was really proud of how well I had positioned the holes for the toggles, especially with just eyeballing the center one. They all fit in nice and snug. Unfortunately, the levers almost touched when flipped toward each other, making for very uncomfortable switching. So I've got extra holes there. Worse yet, the L'il Killer is just a couple hairs bigger than a standard singlecoil in every direction, so it didn't fit comfortably in the hole provided. The only tool I had available with which to remedy this situation was a steak knife.  It fits, but it sure is ugly! |
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Post by ChrisK on Oct 18, 2008 13:57:54 GMT -5
I spent a week in Minneapolis at the beginning of October. I didn't get any compliments either, but a couple of folks were kind enough to offer some "free advice" out their car window. |
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Post by JohnH on Oct 18, 2008 14:58:18 GMT -5
I think I get the idea - and I like the thought of a bright little guitar. Here's two thoughts:
Have you got room to turn all your toggles by 90 degrees? - then they will flick up and down without the switch tips getting close.
If so, you would then also have room to change the series/parallel switch to a 4PDT. The extra two poles could be used, one with each pickup rotary, to turn the 'off' position into an 'on' for one of the coils, but in series mode only. Perhaps this series-off setting would be a repeat of which ever selection was nearest to it. That would get rid of all the series-mode dead spots. There'd be some repetition, but it would be less annoying than dead spots. in parallel mode, it would be unchanged.
I also had a think about whether the extra toggle switch poles could instead, be used to provide a proper 'off' setting for each pup in series mode, which would be a short-circuit instead of an open- circuit condition. But I can't see that one.
cheers
John
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Post by ashcatlt on Oct 18, 2008 16:31:42 GMT -5
Thanks, but I've already re-drilled for more comfortable switching. I purposely have them switching perpendicular to my strumming action. This is a very small guitar and the phase switch especially would be knocked around all over the place when I really get into it.
The dead spots are kind of annoying, but I can live with it. The way the rotaries are set up make it difficult to make "on the fly" changes anyway. Requires twisting two knobs to get from neck only to bridge only.
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) mini-strat is quieter than his "real guitar". I posted my findings over there, but the gist is that the pickup/control cavity (one big route) is coated with conductive paint which is, in fact, connected to the jack sleeve. Not much foil on the pickguard, but I can remedy that situation. 
It fits, but it sure is ugly!
