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Post by treguiers on Nov 5, 2009 11:34:28 GMT -5
hi everyone, I'm attempting the double barrel switching for my strat, as shown in the mod section of "guitarnuts.com". It involves adding a 5way super switch to the existing 5 way switch. You get to keep all the original strat settings with some extra settings from the new switch. here's a link: I can follow the diagram alright but the diagram assumes a SSS strat while I'm trying to mod a HSS strat. I want the humbucker for the normal bridge position and the coil tap for the bridge-mid position and all the other modded positions. The humbucker is a suhr DSV(same colour code as the seymour duncans, I believe) Has anyone attempted this mod? I'm reluctant to add another switch. I've also routed out the scratchplate for the second switch, so in many ways there's no turning back. Anyone with any nuggets of wisdom would be greatly received
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Post by pete12345 on Nov 5, 2009 11:44:21 GMT -5
The simplest way would be to use a push/pull pot for the volume. You could wire it so pulling the pot up switches to coil tap, down is the full humbucker.
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Post by newey on Nov 5, 2009 12:10:30 GMT -5
tre-
Hello and Welcome!
Pete's suggestion would also give you the ability to split the HB in the Bridge-only position- but requires an extra switch.
If all you want is the full HB in the Bridge-only position, with all other options using only the split coil, this should be doable with just the switching you have.
Since this design eliminates one of the tone controls, you have one pole on the regular 5-way switch unused.
I think you can use that extra pole to add the full HB. I can visualize how to do it in parallel; I'm having trouble figuring out how to do it in series (which is how HBs are usually wired).
I'm sure someone will correct me if I'm wrong and/or come along with another suggestion.
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Post by treguiers on Nov 5, 2009 12:41:31 GMT -5
Thanks pete, with regard to newey, from the schematic I'm looking at, there are 4 poles free on the original 5 way switch. The original designer used one side of the 5 way switch. The push pull may be the way to go, but it one extra thing in the heat of gigging. What drew me to this in the first place was it simplicity.(simplicity on the outside, I'm discovering it's not so simple under the hood!) BTW hello everyone.
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Post by newey on Nov 5, 2009 13:38:21 GMT -5
Terminology problem!
The switch in question is a 2 pole, 3 throw switch (with 2 shorting "notch" positions at 2 and 4).
Each side of the switch constitutes one "pole". A pole implies that a discreet set of connections can be made.
The things you solder wires onto are called "terminals" or "lugs". Each pole has 4 terminals, one for each throw of the switch and a common lug.
So, yes, you have one whole side of the switch available for use, which is one pole.
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Post by treguiers on Nov 5, 2009 14:07:02 GMT -5
although I'm not a total Luddite when it comes to electronics, I can work a soldering Iron and can read a schematic, I'm by no means an expert. So thanks for the education Newey.
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Post by treguiers on Nov 5, 2009 19:58:35 GMT -5
OK it's official...... Ive stared and stared at the circuit diagram at the below link and I can't figure out how to do that mod with a HSS(full HB in the normal bridge position and coil tap in the bridge-mid, as well as all the new mod positions). I need HELP! I really am reluctant to add another switch. But I've a gig saturday and if i don't get a way to do it I'll have to stick a push/pull into it.
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Post by newey on Nov 5, 2009 21:11:24 GMT -5
Believe me, I'm no expert either. I'm more like the doorman . . . Please don't take my comment the wrong way, I wasn't being critical of you at all. But since we're not both standing next to each other looking at the innards of your guitar, we have to be precise when we describe things. Uh-Oh, it's crunch time! You may have to go with the push/pull option in a pinch. I'll try to get a diagram up for you, but it would be tomorrow, Friday at the earliest. And I won't guarantee you it'll work out of the box until and unless it's been vetted by others- which would likely be another day. And, come to think, it's already Friday where you are . . .
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Post by newey on Nov 5, 2009 21:40:46 GMT -5
tre- There are no guarantees on this until it's been checked! But I think this will work: I arbitrarily picked the N coil to be the split one, you can chose the other simply by flopping the connections around.
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Post by sumgai on Nov 5, 2009 23:47:28 GMT -5
3guitars, Hi, and to the NutzHouse! newey's mods to the John Atchley's diagarm (above) will work almost as you wish. The "gotcha" is that whenever the Bridge is selected with the original switch, it'll have both coils in parallel. That includes position 2, B+M. ( Edit: I've offered a possible solution in a further post below, designed to ovecome the need for a separate switch.) sumgai
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Post by newey on Nov 5, 2009 23:57:28 GMT -5
Darn it! To get a regular HB sound, he wants the 2 coils in series, correct?
I thought I had that worked out, but now that I look again, they're in parallel. Back to the drawing board . . .
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Post by sumgai on Nov 6, 2009 0:51:53 GMT -5
3guitars, Well, I worked out another plan, one that will work as desired, if both Bridge coils in parallel are acceptable. It involves doing some old-school surgery on the original switch. Since it won't be an easy, quick and dirty fix, you may elect to pass this over for the coming gig, and return to the idea afterwards. Check out this image: Look at the circular metal contact... see how it sits under the common terminal on the left, and the way it's positioned now, it sits under the far right terminal too? With me so far? Well, the secret to this switch is that circular contact's wide tab sitting under the far right terminal - it's wider than necessary. (!) By design, it has to be this wide in order to make contact between two adjacent terminals when in positions 2 or 4. Really, that's how it's done - this is 'the shunt' that gives us the Jimi Hendrix tones. (Which, I might add, were first recorded in 1962 by Pat Fuller - look him up. (newey knows what/who I'm talking about. )) Well, if you were to go in there with your diagonal cutters (we call 'em dykes) and nip away enough material from the wide portion, you could modify it such that the contact will only be made when the wiper is fully under the selected terminal, i.e. no shunting would take place between adjacent terminals. Are you still with me here? Good. Now, we can connect this modified switch like so: This whole process should prevent the second coil of the Humbucker coming on until the original selector switch is in position 1, Bridge pup only. One other thing.... I'm not so sure that the BS polarities are correct. If the full-on Humbucker sounds weak and thin to you, then simple swap BS+ for BS- and that should fix it. (This issue arises because not all pickup makers follow any kind of labeling convention - they just call it what feels good to them, and let the user figure it out. ) Remember, when the chips are down and you're in a hurry, that's when Mr. Murphy will make his most dramatic appearance. Slow down, take your time, double-check your work as you go, and lay off the suds until you're done. Good luck! sumgai
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Post by sumgai on Nov 6, 2009 1:19:45 GMT -5
tresguitars,
Upon further reflection (and after being ninja'd by newey...), I see that I can't see any way to implement both humbucker coils in series. At least, not with just the parts on hand.
Sadly, the only way I can see to do it at this time is with a separate switch, such as the aforementioned push-pull, or a mini-toggle, or whatever feels best to you.
(Hmmm, might it be possible to make such an additional switch into a Bridge Only (both coils in series), bypassing all else? Seems quite possible to me, without going into it too deeply just now. Might be worth looking into......)
sumgai
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Post by treguiers on Nov 6, 2009 6:14:43 GMT -5
WOW! Thanks newey, for the diagram. And I wasn't one bit offended by any of your comments, in fact to the contrary I was delighted to have someone who knows more about this stuff than me, have a look at the problem.
It seems greater minds than me are agreeing that i can't get the HB in series with the switching I have for the position I want. I'll stick in the push pull for the moment and come back to the designs after the gig. Thanks Sumgai for your input. I think I want the HB in series. Parallel is a smaller sound, too small for what I need. I will certainly be returning to the diagrams after the gig.
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Post by treguiers on Nov 6, 2009 10:13:26 GMT -5
hi, guys, just complete the wiring with the push pull coil tap. Not all options are working. I've checked and rechecked the diagram but can't see the problem. Position 1 of the superswitch is the bypass to the normal switch. That seem to be fine. Position 2 of the superswitch is the neck and bridge in parallel. that also seems to be fine Position 3, 4 and 5, 3 being the mid and bridge in series, 4 being the bridge and neck in series and 5 the bridge and neck in series but out of phase, are not working. the bridge works but the mid and neck don't. I obviously have some sort of series connection problem.
BTW I didn't have a 400v cap so I connected the that connection directly to ground.
Again, any nuggets of wisdom would be very much welcomed
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Post by newey on Nov 6, 2009 10:27:00 GMT -5
First, please post the diagram you used to wire in the push/pull for the coil split.
Is that working correctly?
Other than that, I'd focus my attention to the grounds for the mid and neck pups coming off the 4th pole of the superswitch.
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Post by treguiers on Nov 6, 2009 10:53:17 GMT -5
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Post by treguiers on Nov 6, 2009 10:55:25 GMT -5
Sorry newey, one thing I forgot to mention, I put the push pull on the tone pot. I'm using separate vol and tone.
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Post by newey on Nov 6, 2009 11:52:03 GMT -5
That should be fine.
How/where did you wire the p/p pot into the superswitch?
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Post by treguiers on Nov 6, 2009 12:02:01 GMT -5
I've a suhr DSV humbucker black is hot angd green is the minus. I wired the red and white to the push pull, earthed the other lug on the push pull(there are two lugs used on the push pull for coil tap) and then connected the black to B+ on the diagram and green to B- on the diagram and earthed the bare wire
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Post by newey on Nov 6, 2009 12:30:29 GMT -5
That all sounds good. It can be devilishly difficult to troubleshoot these things over the web.
If the regular Strat switch is giving you all the std Strat combos, then it's not a grounding problem. Which means it must be in the superswitch wiring somewhere. Which seems like it would have to be more than just a single bad connection, since you are getting the bridge, but not the middle or neck in those 3 bad positions.
All I can suggest is that you double-check the connections again. Sometimes it helps if you hit them again with the soldering iron. The blue wire between the Mid pole and the Br neg pole, at position 3, is one spot in particular to check.
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Post by treguiers on Nov 6, 2009 12:35:35 GMT -5
thanks newey
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Post by treguiers on Nov 7, 2009 10:55:25 GMT -5
hi newey, the new positions work when the coil tap isn't engaged, i.e when its on the full humbucker. Might that give you a clue as to what may be wrong?
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Post by ashcatlt on Nov 7, 2009 14:29:59 GMT -5
In the series positions, the Bridge pickup is the "top of the heap".
Take the N*B position (#4?) as an example. Trace from ground and try to get to the hot output. It wants to go:
Ground > Neck - > Neck + > Bridge - > Bridge series connection (Red and white) > Bridge + > Hot output.
With the coil tap wired the way you've got it, it goes like this: Ground > Neck - > Neck + > Bridge - > Bridge series connection (Red and white) > Ground.
I'd expect you to be hearing only the one coil from the Bridge in any of these positions. I'm pretty sure you can fix this by running Bridge - to the tap switch in place of the ground connection.
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Post by treguiers on Nov 7, 2009 14:46:59 GMT -5
thank ashcalt, have to make do as is tonight but will certainly do that tomorrow ^Thanks for the wisdom
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Post by treguiers on Nov 7, 2009 22:34:53 GMT -5
Hi Ashcatlt, You were right, That has done the trick. All's working well. I'd have been chasing my tail forever on that one.
BTW the guitar is sounding Amazing
Thanks again Newey and sumgai and pete for your time and expertise. I'll stick a post after I've gigged properly
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Post by treguiers on Nov 10, 2009 21:20:30 GMT -5
EVALUATION. I love this mod. Although there's the drag of sticking another 5 way switch into the scratch plate, this is more than compensated by the ease of use on stage.
I've had these sounds on my guitar on and off over the years with an array of switches and push pulls. But when you have a extensive pedal board, specific cues coming at you, a head full of scales and modes and tortured ninths, switches and push pulls can certainly over complicate things(just speaking personally, Some cats seem to be able to do all that and eat a sandwich at the same time!)
I put the two 5 ways together, ie side by side. with hindsight I'd put the second switch much more towards or even past the missing tone control (depending on the room) Mine also ended up with pos 5 on the superswitch as the link to the strat 5 way. Pos 1 on the superswitch would be better as it gives better access to the original 5 way. I won't give the sonic evaluation of the new sounds as they are combination that have been tried and tested and spoken about on this site, far more eloquently that I could.
So thanks for everyone for getting me across the finish line. I love my guitar even more now.
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Post by newey on Nov 10, 2009 21:30:26 GMT -5
But did you ever get the coil cut working properly?
Glad you're happy with the mod. As far as the issue of 1 vs. 5 switch goes, if the wires are long enough you might be able to get away with just flipping the switch 180°. Probably not too likely given all the wiring to that switch!
Otherwise, new scratchplates are cheap- just get a new one, cut the slot where you want it (or, more likely, where it will fit . . .), and transfer your newly-wired electronics over.
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Post by ashcatlt on Nov 10, 2009 22:28:07 GMT -5
But did you ever get the coil cut working properly? In reply #23, I give him the fix for that, and in #25, he reports that it worked. Glad it worked out. Flipping the switch will reverse all of the postions, but is the easiest solution. If that's not acceptable, you could swap the connections on all 4 poles between the #1 and #5 lugs. If that messes up the logic too much, you'd have to rewire the whole thing.
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Post by newey on Nov 10, 2009 23:11:13 GMT -5
OK, just a little brain flatulence . . .
If your not happy with the position of the 5-way switch anyway, rather than rewiring the superswitch, redo a guard for it and kill the proverbial 2 birds . . .
It may be tight, but I'd bet you could move it over enough so that the position for the override on the superswitch won't matter.
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