|
Post by zedsnotdead on Apr 22, 2010 20:54:36 GMT -5
Hello everyone! I read pretty much all the guitarnuts website hoping to find a answer for this, but i'm stuck. The problem is as follows: About a year ago i bought a G&L S-500 guitar (Tribute). This guitar has a little mod not seen in other strat-type guitars that, at the time, i was aware of - i just jumped to electric guitar world by then, so you could consider me as almost a tottaly noob So this guitar has an option to join bridge+neck or bridge+middle+neck pickup using a on-off switch. Well, as i wasn't "all that happy" with it's default setup, i bought a Dimarzio Tonezone S (HB in SC format) and a DPDT (3 position switch). So i grabbed on the internet the default electric scheme from G6L's website and add the DPDT in it. Everything is now connected and working: BUT, if i use Bridge+Middle pickups at the same time it sounds so weak, compared with just bridge or just middle pickups. Please take a look at dl.dropbox.com/u/6010689/pickup%20test.mp3 . It's a sound sample. In the sample you can hear 1st- bridge PU 2nd- bridge and middle PUs 3rd- middle PU I didn't touch any volume/treble/bass pot while recording. Just the 5way switch. Could you please help me understand what's wrong? Or is this normal? This is my first post in this forum, so please be gentle And excuse me for my english, i'm not american or english and hope you can understand this post. If not, please tell me so that i clarify.
|
|
|
Post by JohnH on Apr 23, 2010 7:32:09 GMT -5
Hi z - welcome to GN2. thanks for posting your question, and sound clip, which makes it easier to follow.
First just a request, could you reduce the size of your diagram? it makes the screne not fit on most monitors.
On your problem, it is very likely to be a phase issue, ie the middle and bridge pickups may be out of phase, so when the string moves one way, one pickup is making say a + voltage and the other is -, and so they cancel out. In fact they don't entirely cancel out, since they are getting different signals, but the overall tone is weaker. the effect is Mir eon the low harmonics that the higher ones, so it can leave a thin sound with little bass. Sometimes it is a nice effect, but not for your day to day sounds.
The way to fix such an issue is to reverse the wires. This does not affect the sound of a single pickup, but changes its phase in combination with others. The problem is likely to be the relative phase of bridge and middle. Reversing the two wires of the middle pup should fix it. Then you may need to also reverse those of the neck, so the N and M pups keep the same relative phase.
Alternatively you can swap the bridge pup wires around. Swap green with white and red with black, leaving the middle and neck pups as they are.
Before launching into that, how are the B+N and N+M sounds? are either of those thinner than the single pickups? Im guessing B+N might also be thin sounding, which would be fixed by the above
See how that goes
cheers
John
|
|
|
Post by zedsnotdead on Apr 23, 2010 11:09:35 GMT -5
Hi! thank you for your reply! I posted this problem in another forum also, and someone said that it could be a phase issue also, but didn't got in such detail as you. Thanks If i reverse the wires on the bridge pickup, could i swap green+red instead? Also, i just recorded a new sound file ( dl.dropbox.com/u/6010689/pickup_test2.mp3) that goes like this: 1st- Neck PU 2nd- Neck+Middle PUs 3rd- Neck+Bridge PUs 4th- Bridge+Middle PUs (again like the other sound file, just for comparision) What do you think? Thanks! PS:I reduced image size. I'm sorry my screen is 22" so the original fitted pretty well. How's the image size now?
|
|
|
Post by ashcatlt on Apr 23, 2010 11:47:46 GMT -5
It honestly doesn't sound like what I'd expect to hear from a Parallel Out of Phase combination. This might be partly due to an output mismatch between the two pickups - that is, if the HB is significantly louder, it'll be something like 1 + (-.5), which won't add up to the drastic cancellation we'd otherwise expect. Can't be sure on that.
I wonder if you're not just reacting to the contrast in sound between the bridge HB and the parallel combination of the two. We'd expect the HB on its own to be louder and somewhat darker than a single coil, and this seems to be born out by your samples. Parallel combinations are often a little quieter than either pickup on its own, and also quite a bit brighter.
I say, try to adjust the pickup heights first. See if you can get something acceptable the easy way before you open it back up and start burning yourself again.
|
|
|
Post by zedsnotdead on Apr 23, 2010 13:07:26 GMT -5
well, i can split the HB to sound "like" a single coil... That way i hope the impedance difference will not be so significant and the sound level would be more uniform?
|
|
|
Post by sumgai on Apr 23, 2010 13:41:46 GMT -5
znd, Hi, and to the NutzHouse! ash hits it on the head - raise the middle pup, or lower the bridge pup, it's that simple. ;D And your English is better than that of some of our denizens, don't worry on that account! HTH sumgai
|
|
|
Post by zedsnotdead on Apr 23, 2010 13:58:38 GMT -5
Thank you! so, you guys think it's just a impedance or PU height and not a reverse-phase issue? I can still post a sound file using splited HB just to check... edit: here it is: dl.dropbox.com/u/6010689/pickup%20test3%20%28coil%20split%29.mp3(Bridge HB in split mode - SC "like") 1st- Bridge 2nd- Bridge+Middle - almost identical to 1st. isn't it? 3rd - Middle
|
|
|
Post by JohnH on Apr 23, 2010 17:03:36 GMT -5
Having listened to the further clips and discussion -Im still supporting the 'out of phase' theory (nails colours to mast with small coloured thumb tacks).
Ive also dropped each sample into Audacity to look at the relative levels of the overall sound, and more particularly, the amplitude of the fundamental tone of the lowest strings of this G chord. At these frequencies, all pickups should be adding to the level, independent of where they are along the length of the string
What Im hearing and seeing is that each pickup is capable of a full powerful sound. In the first clip, the low harmonic volume of mixed B and M should not be less than that of either single pup, if they were in phase, but it is. Similarly in clip 2, the combos with the bridge are less than those without. In clip 3, the bridge has been cut down to a single, now much weaker than the middle. The middle contribution is overwhelming and reversing that of the bridge.
i think that the reason we are not getting the classic very thin out of phase sound is that the pickups are very different, so they interact but not fully cancel out.
Anyway, the other suggestions of changing heights are easy to try, but if there is still an issue, try this reversing theory to see if it fixes it.
john
|
|
|
Post by zedsnotdead on Apr 23, 2010 17:18:59 GMT -5
Thanks J,
but is it possible just to swap green+red instead of green with white and red with black?
|
|
|
Post by JohnH on Apr 23, 2010 17:54:20 GMT -5
Z - the two coils on a DiMarzio are green/white and red/black. For standard Hb configuration Black and white are joined, as in your circuit. If you just swap red and green, that will work fine as a series HB (test it that way if its easier), but will mess up your parallel setting because each coil will be shorted
John
ps - as often happens here, you have the choice of different views about what is what. Also, you have made a great start by describing a problem clearly and giving us easy to follow diagrams and sounds - so lets see how this pans out. I am ready with some humble-pie, either to have for breakfast myself, or to toss in the general direction of the other guys!
pps There is a definitive non-invasive, quick, simple test for phase issues on a guitar, which involves an analog multimeter (ie with a needle) and a small screwdriver. Would you by any chance, have such a meter?
|
|
|
Post by zedsnotdead on Apr 24, 2010 0:35:09 GMT -5
Hi John,
you are right, i really need to re-wire all of them to get a proper functionality using the DPDT switch and reverse the phase.
I don't have a multimeter but i was already thinking of buying one, maybe today if a get lucky and find a analogue one. Could you please tell me how to test the phase with it?
BTW, i used audacity to record those clips and it was very clear that the output level of some parts using combos (M+B) was significantly lower then the output of each PU by itself.
|
|
|
Post by JohnH on Apr 24, 2010 6:53:40 GMT -5
Z - the idea with the meter is as follows: - Plug a normal jack cord into the guitar, and turn all controls to max.
- Connect the meter across the cord, using the most sensitive DC voltage setting
- Select a pickup setting that you want to test
- Lay the tip of a screw driver flat on each pickup pole, then lift it up sharply away from the pickup, The meter needle will jump
It may jump up or it may jump down, that does not matter, but if all pickups in that combo are in phase, then the needle will jump the same way when each is tested. If the needle jumps in different directions, then they are out of phase. Having said that this works with an analog meter, if you don't have one then you may not want to buy one, since for every other purpose, the digital ones are very good, even the cheap types (thats what I have). I think you can do that same test using Audacity. I hadn't tried this before, but I just tested it and it works. Here is a screen shot. I have the guitar plugged directly into my PC line-in, using a standard sound-blaster card. I did the same screwdriver pull-off test, using two pickups. The top trace has both in phase, while for the lower one, I operated a phase reverse switch on one pickup. You can see clearly how they are out of phase in the 2nd trace, because one signal jumps up and the other down (as would be observed on a meter): Having recorded it, I cut out some empty gaps and normalised to make the picture, but its very clear what is happening. I hope that helps cheers John
|
|
|
Post by zedsnotdead on Apr 24, 2010 23:59:25 GMT -5
Just did the audacity test. Here's the result: Think it's really out of phase. I'm going to re-wire as soon as possible, 'cause i'm also thinking of shielding those cavities and for that i'm waiting for some adhesive copper foil to be available. What do you think? PS: Humble-pie anyone? ;D
|
|
|
Post by JohnH on Apr 25, 2010 0:32:40 GMT -5
Yup! There's ya problem!
Neat! I'm pleased with that test method too
John
|
|
|
Post by ashcatlt on Apr 25, 2010 0:38:02 GMT -5
Yep, that about answers the question.
I like pie!
Glad you got it fingered out.
|
|
|
Post by zedsnotdead on Apr 25, 2010 0:47:48 GMT -5
THANK YOU all! Thank you for your time, pacience and aid. I gotta say that you were the most helpful users. That Audacity test is something - J, you are a genious! Great forum, great users. Im very happy to find such a site I hope i could be helpful one of this days also
|
|
|
Post by newey on Apr 25, 2010 9:38:49 GMT -5
That's a great idea for testing phase, John! 1+!!
In a fewer years, analog meters will probably be as easy to find as hen's teeth- and that screwdriver method is a bit futzy anyway.
But almost everyone these days has a means to plug into a PC (or to record a couple of clips for uploading). This method is probably the way of the future, then.
Please repost a Reader's Digest version under reference articles, if you would, so we can link to it easily when the inevitable phase questions arise in the future.
|
|
|
Post by JohnH on Apr 26, 2010 3:43:22 GMT -5
|
|
|
Post by zedsnotdead on Apr 26, 2010 11:59:29 GMT -5
Hi! just to let you know that your findings on out-of-phase check using the PC are now posted and translated to Portuguese language in a local guitar forum. I already referenced and linked GN2 forum to those guys. F...ing amazing!! Anyhow, some asked if pluging guitar cord directly to soundcards line-in would not damage the card. I really don't know, but i use my gear like this: Guitar - Pedal (optional) - Amp (Record Out/Phones jack in a Roland Cube 20x) - Line in (Realtek soundcard embedded in motherboard) and it works fine... What do you think?
|
|
|
Post by sumgai on Apr 26, 2010 13:11:28 GMT -5
znd, You're doing it correctly. Any time you see a Line In jack, you can safely plug in a guitar directly - there's not much way to cause any damage to either the guitar or the device. However, be aware that the signal from a guitar is much weaker than the voltage level expected by the Line In circuitry. To overcome this, some small amount of amplification is necessary, in order to be sure that the guitar will sound its best. Thus, your amplfier's Line Out jack is the correct way to do it. HTH sumgai p.s. Most of us can only speak American. If we get a rush of Portugese speakers here in the NutzHouse, you're gonna have to do some translation work for us. ;D Thanks for the kind words, and the reference.
|
|
|
Post by cynical1 on Apr 26, 2010 14:02:15 GMT -5
If you have one laying around...or if you can still find one...a Rockman, or a Bass Rockman work well in this application as well. The output is 1/8" stereo and the other perq here is that when it outputs to your soundcard the signal is already in stereo.
HTC1
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
Likes:
|
Post by Deleted on Jan 24, 2013 4:26:59 GMT -5
great thread, i am gonna do the audacity test tonight.
Just one question : i bought two adaptors (guitar jack male to small jack female) : one mono and one stereo. Which one should make more sense?
|
|
|
Post by JohnH on Jan 24, 2013 14:32:11 GMT -5
If you want to connect a guitar direct to a PC line-in, you want a 6.5mm mono jack plug at one end and a 3.5mm jack plug at the other. This can be mono or stereo. Depending how its connected youll get a recording on one or both channels in the PC.
Just to note that such a direct connect is fine for these phase tests, but not good for recording your playing, so it might be ok to just rig something up temporarily. eg, ear buds and head phones usually have 3.5mm plugs, and a spare rubbish pair of these seems to come with every new gadget. So you can cut and strip the wire of one of these and clip the braid and central core of one or two channels to the tip and barrel of a normal guitar cord.
I use another cord, designed for another purpose: When I'm rehearsing with the band, we often want to play an mp3 player into the PA mixer or one of the amps, to listen to a track we are learning. So I have a stereo 3.5mm jack wired to a mono 6.5mm jack. This gives us a mono line input to the mixer. To help combine the two mp3 outputs into one signal, without distortion, each has a 100ohm resistor in line, within the larger jack barrel. This cord, working in reverse, also works well for these direct phase tests.
John
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
Likes:
|
Post by Deleted on Jan 25, 2013 5:28:13 GMT -5
John thanx, didn't quite understand all you said, but i guess more question will arise as i start doing the actual job. It must been ages since a last recorded to a computer (i recall it was on a linux kernel 2.xx just when ALSA had come out), the drum machine was greenbox (a program no longer available), i do not remember the name of the recording software, and completely forgot the interface i used. Didn't do the phase test yesterday as i was supposed to. Yesterday got busy with butchering a new fender trapezoid tuning machine to fit my old aria which had her original tuning machine broken some time in the 80s. i finally fixed this!!! It is unbelievable how much reliable and durable the strats are. If it was another guitar i would be dead now.
|
|
|
Post by cynical1 on Jan 25, 2013 12:05:28 GMT -5
Dude - The Linux world has come a long way...it still has a long way to go, but it has shown improvement. I dabbled with it about a year ago to see if you could build a solid recording workstation. Here's the highlights of the pros and cons I discovered: PROS:64Studio: This is the best Linux OS distro out there if you want to record and run audio recording/mixing apps. All the really annoying configs have already been accomplished. Their forum and support is very good. Ardour: This is about the best digital audio workstation application I found for Linux. One of the principal authors of this software also developed the JACK Audio Connection Kit...this may, or may not thrill you if you ever toyed with JACK...no pun intended... Out of the box it only supports LADSPA and LV2 plugins. You can download it for free, but it does make strong recommendations that you toss in a few coins for their trouble. Rosegarden: This is a free digital audio workstation app that functions as an audio and MIDI sequencer\scoring\composing\editing tool. It also supports LADSPA plugins. For what it does, it does well. It really is a MIDI alternative to apps like CuBase or Sonar. It really only shines when comparing the MIDI half of the aforementioned apps, but I was impressed at how stable and useful is is. CONS: No VST support...well, none out of the box. You can try the overly involved re-compiling of Ardour or the individual plugins with the VST SDK Kit from Steinberg...but this is not for the faint of heart...nor for those expecting them to resemble or function the same as they did in Windows. If you've used Windows for a while and acquired a collections of .vst and .vsti plugins and virtual instruments the fact that they are all now kindling is a tough sell. To me, this was the deal breaker. Dyed in the wool Linux users probably have no problems with this as they've never acquired these plugins to miss them. You Windows folks know what I'm talking about, though. Not to say there aren't some good LADSPA plugins out there, because some of them are quite useable. They're just not very plentiful and your selections are very limited by comparison to the myriad of vst and vsti options. Rumor has it that Ardour is working on vst\vsti support out of the box, but I haven't been back in a year so I can't confirm or deny that. I doubt the app will remain free if they do...Licensing Is... This short diatribe was not intended as a rant, merely an effort to shortcut you to the best options, IMHO, available to you in Linux for recording and mixing. Sure, there are other options and apps out there for Linux. Some are good, but these are certainly the best I found...and just ask SG, I really tried hard on this Linux project to make it work...before I finally gave up in defeat and built a W7\64 box for recording and mixing... I'm sure an army of penguins is waiting for me in the snow outside, but there it is. You can do some respectable recording and mixing in Linux, but you're probably going to have to work at it and tweak the OS a bit to make it work. Hope this helps. Happy Trails Cynical One
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
Likes:
|
Post by Deleted on Jan 26, 2013 2:09:22 GMT -5
Cyn, 1st off, this is pyrros here, trying to hide his past-internet life here, call me (greek)dude but its the same old person you are talking to. Maybe i will become pyrros again when i am sure the google archives have been stored to tapes and the logs rotated About the above, although i miss many of the acronyms, nice overview. Sure, occasionally it takes some compilations, some hand editing, some man pages lookup, dealing with compilation errors, gdb, etc.... it can become a nightmare but its nothing compared to the 90s. Anyway, generally, i think the new beast here is cloud computing, powered by Linux/Debian of course. Debian/cloud/google will become the new m$soft, so the army of peguins naturally aiming for a free world will be captured once again, and this time harder, cause freedom might cost more in the end than dropping some cents to a poor windows programmer or even microsoft. Linux is so much politically involved, trendy, the new big thing, advertised, endorsed , etc... In my POV FreeBSD and its cousins/derivatives are the way to go. Provided of course the power always stays (or some fraction of it) to the user. Now back to the topic , about the test, my tests showed this : The upper waveform shows the test on the bridge pup (dimarzio HS-3), the lower one the test on the cheap non-name SC (artec??) middle pup. The first spike in each waveform shows the moment the metal touches the magnet, and the second shows the moment the metal leaves the magnet. They show similar behavior i think. Should i presume they are in phase? Also i noticed that the middle no name SC pup is more sensitive to magnetic field, we see the disturbance is bigger on the middle SC than the bridge noiseless SC HS-3. I did the test on some linux laptop with kubuntu with no line-in, only mic, i noticed, is that when i recorded some music, the sound was distorted, same effect you hear on deep purple, early vintage overdrive, type of sound.
|
|
|
Post by JohnH on Jan 26, 2013 2:13:05 GMT -5
Probably in phase, but a better way to do this is to lay the screwdriver carefully on the pole, letting it rest there, then lift it in a single upward movement. Then you only get a clear up or down trace.
John
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
Likes:
|
Post by Deleted on Jan 26, 2013 2:44:40 GMT -5
i forgot to mention that the hs-3 *stays* in humbucking mode even in position 2 (middle-bridge), no coil splitting. Also this the mic input, which distorts the signal. i redid the test with a screwdriver touching two poles. i got this, which is not any different, clipped the metal touching magnet step, only the sharp removal of metal is shown : Does this makes more sense? or am i still doing it wrong?
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
Likes:
|
Post by Deleted on Jan 27, 2013 5:43:14 GMT -5
So John, should i suppose its ok?
|
|
|
Post by JohnH on Jan 27, 2013 6:58:41 GMT -5
looks to be in phase, if that was the question J
|
|