peterrabbit
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Post by peterrabbit on Aug 1, 2010 17:51:35 GMT -5
Howdy folks! It's been a while, and I've been working on a circuit that uses: 5 single-coil strat-type pickups (GFS clearance store.guitarfetish.com/ovstserewobl.html, 2 strat sets, mid RPRW, $34 total); separate vol/on-off; sep. phase; sep. ser/par; universal varitone and master volume. All this will require 6 pots/knobs, a 6 position rotary switch with chicken-head knob, 5 4PDP switches, 1 DPDT toggle / 5 DPDT slider switches, and a lot of caps and resistors. The main purpose of this construct is to be as a tonal test-bed, to try and find those elusive sounds. Once found, I will incorporate them into my next build. ( It's true - if you start to build a guitar, before you're done you have the plans for the next two in your head) Thanks to cc in Sydney for getting me this far. Got almost all the parts, waiting on the 4PDTs. Tried wiring the ser/par with 3PDT switches, but 4PDT makes life easier. About the only part that I don't like is the wiring of the DPDT ser/par switch (about in the middle of the diagram) - can someone verify this as either right or stupid, please? All responses welcome and appreciated. BTW, the cap/resistor combo on the bridge ground is to help nullify lethal electric shock from poorly grounded wall power. Thanks, and ENJOY! Peter -------------- Famous last words: "I'll bet I get a world's record for this!"
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Post by newey on Aug 1, 2010 22:16:33 GMT -5
PR-
Thanks for reposting this! It's also a well-done diagram.
Whether it works as you intend, well, I haven't had time to check it yet, and after 4 hours of work this evening I can't stare at a computer monitor anymore.
But a couple of points. First, have you figured out how all these components are physically going into the guitar? I mean, 6 pots, a rotary, 11 other switches- and you not only have to plan where to locate everything, but also to leave room for the mass of wiring.
Second, with series wiring and 5 pots (plus the Master Vol) all online at once, I think you won't be happy with how much the circuit is loaded with all 5 pickups on at once, especially in series.
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Post by ashcatlt on Aug 1, 2010 23:13:05 GMT -5
Moved, like I said I would, from here._________________________________________________ My first question is: Why there is a 220K resistor in parallel with .001µf cap wired across your string ground? Shouldn't that be across the volume control for treble protection? But again, please answer the question in a separate thread. Thanks! Can't wait for the new thread! This ain't a treble bleed, it's "a safety cap" arrangement. A bit different from the DC blocking cap in the QTB, but if you read the Article re: Electrical Shock Hazards on the GuitarNuts site, you'll find some mention of this. Basically, the standard cap doesn't help much with AC faults. The smaller cap here helps to attenuate any 60Hz AC that might leak through the system. This has an unfortunate side effect though. To the extent that this capacitor attenuates 60Hz coming from the amp ground, it also attenuates the 60Hz noise which is trying to get to ground at the amp. Of course, that 60Hz is the most insidious and ubiquitous noise we have here in the US. So it's noticeably noisier with this smaller cap. Pretty sure the parallel resistor is there to allow some of the 60Hz noise to bleed around the cap, reducing some of this excess noise. Of course, that also reduces the effectiveness of the cap when it comes to alleviating shocks. It might act to limit the leakage current.
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Post by ashcatlt on Aug 1, 2010 23:19:55 GMT -5
Now I'm actually looking at the scheme, I have a sneaky feeling there's got to be something wrong here, but I'm not sure what just yet.
Tell me about those independent volume pots. Specifically, does it open or closed when it goes it goes "click"?
Then a little about what you want these switches to do. Each of the 4Ps decides whether this pickup is in series or parallel with all the others? Just the one before it? What's the DP "Master" S/P supposed to do, then? Override the others?
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Post by JohnH on Aug 2, 2010 1:00:08 GMT -5
well, consider those switched pots. If of a radio type, they break the circuit once you go down to minimum volume, hence cutting off power to ones radio.
Suppose you have everything switched to series mode, all signals from all five pups going through all the others. What happens when you turn one pup off?
John
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peterrabbit
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Post by peterrabbit on Aug 2, 2010 2:14:20 GMT -5
Hi Guys - nice to hear from you again! Newey: "First, have you figured out how all these components are physically going into the guitar? I mean, 6 pots, a rotary, 11 other switches- and you not only have to plan where to locate everything, but also to leave room for the mass of wiring."I am going to try to fit things into a GFS Tele body - I know I've a lot of routing to do, including making a new pickguard to accomodate everything. That part will prolly get posted under Lutherie. If I can't get it all to fit, I guess I'll just have to build a new body. I'm hoping it will resemble this: "Second, with series wiring and 5 pots (plus the Master Vol) all online at once, I think you won't be happy with how much the circuit is loaded with all 5 pickups on at once, especially in series."I'm using all 1 Meg pots, and, really, all 5 pups won't likely be on all that often (but you never know). ashcatlt: "This ain't a treble bleed, it's "a safety cap" arrangement. A bit different from the DC blocking cap in the QTB, but if you read the Article re: Electrical Shock Hazards on the GuitarNuts site, you'll find some mention of this."Yeah - what you said: "Tell me about those independent volume pots. Specifically, does it open or closed when it goes it goes "click"?"The circuit opens at full CCW, like a radio knob. "Then a little about what you want these switches to do. Each of the 4Ps decides whether this pickup is in series or parallel with all the others? Just the one before it? What's the DP "Master" S/P supposed to do, then? Override the others?"This is a complex question, but the answer will serve both questions. The 4PDTs put each pup into a series 'channel' or a parallel 'channel', then the "Master" S/P switch should choose between them or connect them. I'm not sure about the wiring of that switch - it doesn't seem right to me. Here's a worksheet I've been using to try to translate from scematic to diagram: "Now I'm actually looking at the scheme, I have a sneaky feeling there's got to be something wrong here, but I'm not sure what just yet."Yeah, I know the feeling! Ain't this fun? Thanks for joining in - I, for one, am having a frustratingly GREAT time with this! Peter ---------------------- Favorite country song titles: I can't get over you while you're under him.
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Post by sumgai on Aug 2, 2010 13:17:39 GMT -5
John,
That "something feels wrong" is a correct assumption. Read on....
~!~!~!!~ pr,
As soon as I realized that you could combine the phase switch with the series/parallel selection onto one 5-way switch, ala Strat-style jobbies, I knew that I was deja-vuing all over again. You've re-crafted my Side Slap Strat into an even heftier behemoth!
Sadly, ProBoards has somehow decided that the entire thread, all 9 pages thereof, no longer deserves to belong here, so they deleted it - I sure sure as Hell didn't!
There is a SideSlap Strat, Light thread, from late last year, but it doesn't do nearly as much as yours, so I won't bother linking to it. But be assured, your scheme suffers the same intrinsic flaws as mine did. All possible combos can be achieved, but not with the number of switches you currently employ - you'll need at least three more!
When, oh when, are we finally gonna go the digital switching route?!
sumgai
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peterrabbit
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Post by peterrabbit on Aug 2, 2010 16:58:34 GMT -5
Hi guys!
John: Suppose you have everything switched to series mode, all signals from all five pups going through all the others. What happens when you turn one pup off?
See? That's why I love you guys! O.K., I wonder if just relocating the vols/on/off to a point after the Ser/Par switch would solve this issue, but I don't see where they would go. Or, I have a bunch of DPDT on/off/on that I could use for Phase and on/off, but again - where?
sumgai: But be assured, your scheme suffers the same intrinsic flaws as my Side Slap Strat did. All possible combos can be achieved, but not with the number of switches you currently employ - you'll need at least three more!
Do you still a copy of the diagram for your Side Slap Strat wiring? If so, may I see it please? And do tell about the 'at least three more' switches!
When, oh when, are we finally gonna go the digital switching route?!
Digital? I'm still waiting for solderless!
Keep it comin'
Peter
------------------
Famous Last Words: I'm sure she's hibernating. Watch.
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Post by ashcatlt on Aug 2, 2010 16:58:41 GMT -5
I kind of figured it out after I posted, but didn't get a chance to post back. You've got what I would call a couple of busses - one for Series and one for Parallel. You assign each pickup to one of these busses and then decide which of these gets routed to the main output via the Master switch. It's an intriguing idea, and if we can get it to work, it would be applicable to HSH equipped guitars.
It actually looks like the bulk of the switching here will work as intended. There are problems though with the individual volume pots.
JohnH identified part of the problem above. When you've got a pickup assigned to the Series bus and then turn it off at the volume control, you're breaking the series chain and will get something approaching silence with the Master switch set to Series.
You could simply turn the volume pot as far down as possible before it clicks. This would effectively remove that pickup from the series circuit (something very close to a short across the pickup) and leave the rest working, but...
...you've got those volume controls wired "backwards" - presumably to keep them from interacting too much - which forces the rest of the Series bus to go through the entire 1M resistance of the pot, which is going to cause a giant (tone)sucking noise!
So, you could instead switch that pickup which you don't want on the either bus over to the Parallel bus and then turn it off (click!). That brings us, though, to the other problem:
When a pickup is assigned to the Parallel bus and switched off via the volume pot, it (and the full resistance of the pot) is hanging from hot, which could be a noise issue. I think you can alleviate that by flilpping the phase switch, but now you've got several moves to turn off one pickup. Fiddly at best. I know it's just for testing, but...
Edit - Oh, I think sg is talking about missing some combinations in that you can't ever have a hybrid series + parallel combination this way, (N*M) + B, for example.
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Post by JohnH on Aug 2, 2010 18:53:39 GMT -5
mmmm..penny is beginning to drop, and I think you are not entirely crazy!
Following on from what ash figured, you have the series bus and the parallel bus, and the 4pdt’s select whether a pickup goes to one or the other. If you are interested in exploring the mixed series/parallel combos, the master S/P switch could be configured to put the total of those two main busses, either in parallel with each other, or in series with each other.
On the volume controls, my suggestions are: Put the phase switches before the volume pots Use normal volume pot wiring, ie outer lugs to the pickup and centre lug to output, with 500k pots Don’t use the radio switches Put 220k and 1nF treble bleed in parallel from each volume pot hot to centre lug.
To turn a pickup off, just set it to the series bus and turn volume to zero, and its bypassed. In parallel mode, you can turn a pickup down in order to reduce its effect, and it will fade from the mix long before it shorts all the other pickups.
With this arrangement, you can get every conceivable combo of series/parallel and phase, with volume control (and some that could never be conceived!)
So how many combinations?
My current estimate is 4954, not including repeated and dead settings (count ‘em for yourself), and not including adjustments of volume and tone.
Obviously, we will expect a comprehensive set of sound samples in due course.
John
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Post by newey on Aug 2, 2010 22:11:06 GMT -5
Gawd, I flunked math when we hit "permutations and combinations" I looked into the "pot-with-a-click-off" thing, and actually ordered several, for my stereo Tele project (currently moving forward at a snail's pace . . . ). But I was convinced to go in another direction, mainly because of the same series wiring problem. Just a thought, don't know if it would work or not, but could you replace the "click on" pots, which only have a SP switch, with DPDT push/pull pots? I'm thinking the other pole could be used to take each pup and its V pot out of the signal chain entirely.
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peterrabbit
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Post by peterrabbit on Aug 2, 2010 23:07:56 GMT -5
ashcatlt: "You assign each pickup to one of these busses and then decide which of these gets routed to the main output via the Master switch. It's an intriguing idea, and if we can get it to work, it would be applicable to HSH equipped guitars."
If it works properly, you should be able to run 50 or 1000 pups in this system. (if you could find a place for them all!)
JohnH: "I think you are not entirely crazy!"
Thanks, but I fear you and I are in the minority.
"Following on from what ash figured, you have the series bus and the parallel bus, and the 4pdt’s select whether a pickup goes to one or the other. If you are interested in exploring the mixed series/parallel combos, the master S/P switch could be configured to put the total of those two main busses, either in parallel with each other, or in series with each other".
YES - that is exactly what I've been trying to figure out! Show me, please! I have DPDT on/on, DPDT on/off/on, 3PDT on/on. and 4PDT on/on switches, toggles and slides for the DPDT on/on - will any of those do?
"On the volume controls, my suggestions are: Put the phase switches before the volume pots"
What's the diff?
"Use normal volume pot wiring, ie outer lugs to the pickup and centre lug to output, with 500k pots Don’t use the radio switches Put 220k and 1nF treble bleed in parallel from each volume pot hot to centre lug."
Out of curiosity, why change the 1Meg pots to 500K, just to introduce a treble bleed? Won't the 1 Meg pots be bright enough?
"To turn a pickup off, just set it to the series bus and turn volume to zero, and its bypassed. In parallel mode, you can turn a pickup down in order to reduce its effect, and it will fade from the mix long before it shorts all the other pickups."
The thing of it is, I'm trying to remove each pup's circuit when it's turned off - the pot and phase and S/P switches - and I don't know if just turning it down will do the trick.
"With this arrangement, you can get every conceivable combo of series/parallel and phase, with volume control (and some that could never be conceived!)
So how many combinations? My current estimate is 4954, not including repeated and dead settings (count ‘em for yourself), and not including adjustments of volume and tone."
Sounds like a lot of possibilities - I love it, and I'll take your word for the 4954 combos (how many would there be if I threw in the 6th pup? Or if I took it down to 4 pups?)
"Obviously, we will expect a comprehensive set of sound samples in due course."
Obviously! Still got to build the thing first, though.
Just a little further...
Peter
--------------
Favorite country song title: "She took the ring, and gave me the finger"
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Post by JohnH on Aug 3, 2010 2:13:54 GMT -5
The phase switches being before the volume – maybe not much difference, but the pickups have a maybe slighly better grounding that way, when phase is reversed.
1M pots are a fraction brighter at full volume, but when you turn them down, they add so much resistance to your signal that the capacitance of the guitar cord will cut much of your highs, particularly if you have several in series. Smaller pots, and treble bleed will help preserve tone. I’ve found this to work well in series wiring.
On your master series/para switch, I think it will end up very similar to the dpdt arragements that we use to do S/P on two coils, but with the combined uber-pups that are created with the series bus and parallel bus. Will think further.
Neweys thought of p/p pots, could be a helpful option. Since this is a test-bed or studio guitar, I’m thinking quick switching changes are not so important, and with the right wiring, you can get all the options just with the pots, but the push/pulls could provide a more tactile on/off function, subject to many more wires.
John
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Post by JohnH on Aug 3, 2010 7:11:19 GMT -5
Further in this, here is master S/P, with a dpdt switch: You could have your switching for each pup as you have it, and I can see it is nice to chop out disused pups completely. I would put the volume controls as I described though. But you could have the phase switches in the position you have them. Instead of th radio pots, you could have on-off-on switches for the phase switches, which will fully disconnect the pup and pot in the centre position. I think whatever you do, it will not be practical to avoid certain dead spots and maybe that doesn't matter in this test bed guitar. If you switch as above, when a pup is off, you will also need to flick it to parallel mode so it does not break the series chain. But maybe thats OK?
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peterrabbit
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Post by peterrabbit on Aug 3, 2010 13:47:28 GMT -5
Newey: I looked into the "pot-with-a-click-off" thing, and actually ordered several, for my stereo Tele project (currently moving forward at a snail's pace . . . ). But I was convinced to go in another direction, mainly because of the same series wiring problem. Just a thought, don't know if it would work or not, but could you replace the "click on" pots, which only have a SP switch, with DPDT push/pull pots? I'm thinking the other pole could be used to take each pup and its V pot out of the signal chain entirely.One of the advantages of the 'click-switches' is their size - smaller than a dime! I'll be using them, even if I don't use the click part. If we can get this S/P thing licked, I think we can use the logic in a variety of ways. JohnH: "The phase switches being before the volume – maybe not much difference, but the pickups have a maybe slighly better grounding that way, when phase is reversed."Suppose I put the pots after the S/P switches, like this: (forgot to show the treble bleeds) This puts the phase in front of the pots and keeps the pot and associated bits out of the rest of the circuit. Does it do anything weird, like shut down the whole guitar and start the self-destruct sequence? If not, then, by Godfrey, man, I think we may have it! "1M pots are a fraction brighter at full volume, but when you turn them down, they add so much resistance to your signal that the capacitance of the guitar cord will cut much of your highs, particularly if you have several in series. Smaller pots, and treble bleed will help preserve tone. I’ve found this to work well in series wiring."I'll test both ways. BTW, what happens with a treble bleed circuit on a 1 Meg pot? Can I use different cap and resistor values to compensate? "Neweys thought of p/p pots, could be a helpful option. Since this is a test-bed or studio guitar, I’m thinking quick switching changes are not so important, and with the right wiring, you can get all the options just with the pots, but the push/pulls could provide a more tactile on/off function, subject to many more wires."For this particular application P/P pots would be too big - and I really don't need any more wires!!! But I can see the value of the idea in an SSH, HSH or HHH type setup, or even a Strat 3-coil setup. "You could have your switching for each pup as you have it, and I can see it is nice to chop out disused pups completely. I would put the volume controls as I described though. But you could have the phase switches in the position you have them. Instead of the radio pots, you could have on-off-on switches for the phase switches, which will fully disconnect the pup and pot in the centre position."Doesn't that lead back to the "all-off" Series problem? "I think whatever you do, it will not be practical to avoid certain dead spots and maybe that doesn't matter in this test bed guitar. If you switch as above, when a pup is off, you will also need to flick it to parallel mode so it does not break the series chain. But maybe thats OK?"Actually, that all would be OK for this testbed application, but I'm trying to be fussy about it (zero dead spots, etc.) so that , perhaps, it could catch on as a popular mod. Maybe, in the future, we'll find a way to combine or condense things into fewer switches. In the meantime, will the above diagram do it? Just a little bit further... Peter ------------- Favorite country song title: Hand me the hammer, Mama, there's a fly on Pappy's head!
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Post by JohnH on Aug 3, 2010 15:55:54 GMT -5
Probably - the volume pot wiring needs more staring at than I can do right now. This arrangement does not have the individual volume controls acting in series mode. And yes there are those dead positions, and they may have to be lived with.
Do you really need all the volume controls? If they are not acting in both series and parallel maybe they could go? if instead of the volume control with built-in radio switches, you had more dpdt toggles, it may be possible to clean up most of the dead settings. i like the look of all the knobs though!
John
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peterrabbit
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Post by peterrabbit on Aug 3, 2010 17:05:45 GMT -5
John, I didn't look closely enough either. you're right, I seem to have diconnected the pots from the Series mode. Back to the ol' drawing board. And I must have those knobs! - the volumes are part of the testing to see what the various tonal relationships are when pups are at different volumes - this might help when choosing pups' resistances: overwound (above about 10K) relative to 'Vintage' or 'Modern Vintage' (below about 10K), for example. And I am seriously running out of room for more toggles, at least in this body - it currently looks like this: The neck is not yet attached and I have a lot of routing to do - for the pups, a swimming pool route; for everything else, the bouts (horns); a lot of measuring and marking all around - even more fun! Have I said Thank You from the bottom of my heart lately? Peter ----------------- Favorite country song titles: I ain't never gone to bed with an ugly woman (but I've woke up with a few)
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peterrabbit
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Post by peterrabbit on Aug 7, 2010 2:16:21 GMT -5
Hey there, Mod Squad! Here's the latest: In the previous incarnation, when a Series pup was turned off, the whole series buss circuit would go nowhere, so I have tried to, using yet another switch (SPDT) per pup, wire it such that that pup is automatically switched to parallel when turned off. Hopefully adding this - 1: works, and - 2: doesn't mess with anything else. Also fixed the 'master' Ser/Par wiring (apologies to JohnH - I screwed it up before). Please let me know if I have succeeded. Thanks. Peter
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Post by newey on Aug 7, 2010 8:40:01 GMT -5
PR-
This diagram is rapidly getting too complicated to follow. I think you/we would be better off trying to evaluate this as a schematic.
Also, with your new switches, it is not clear whether the black wire is making a connection to the bottom lug or just "crossing over". It is also confusing that these are shown as "SPDT" switches with 3 lugs but labeled as "On/off". I know, you were referring to the use of the switch to turn each pup off, and not the internal configuration of the switch itself. A SP "On/off" switch has only 2 lugs, and is a SPST switch, which confused me at first.
Having said that, I don't think your latest incarnation will work as intended- I could be wrong, so let others weigh in.
Assume pup #1 is "off" on the radio switch, and that we want to make pup#2 in series with pup#3. This means both 4P switches for #2 and #3 would be set to "series", the master S/P would be set to "series", and the new switches would be set to "on" for #2 and #3, but "off" for #1 (since we want that pup out of the circuit).
Tracing the signal with these assumptions, I get that both ends of the 2 pups go to the Vol. pot and don't find ground.
I still think the "radio pot" idea is hampering you here, even if it works as intended you now have to manipulate 2 switches to disconnect any one pickup.
BTW, "click off" pots with DPDT switches do exist, but I've never found any with a value >100KΩ.
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Post by JohnH on Aug 7, 2010 17:40:48 GMT -5
Pr – it is getting a bit too funky!
I think you will have to step back from seeking a perfect answer to this wiring, where you get all those series, parallel, series/parallel and parallel/series combos, with no dead spots. I think it would be enough to ensure that you can just get all those sounds, with each one working cleanly (ie, disused bits of circuitry either fully disconnected or grounded – for low noise)
I can see two directions, using the same number of knobs and switches as you have had:
Idea 1 So, heres the first suggestion:
Accept that when a pickup is off, you must also assign it to either parallel or series (depending on the wiring design). Either is possible, but I think parallel will be better
I think the radio switches are holding you back. Be free of them! Actually, when you use this guitar for its main purpose of mulling over subtle tone combinations, maybe it is better if you don’t need to turn the volumes down to switch off, but can do A/B changes just with toggles?
So, for each pickup, wire it in this order: 1 Pickup 2 Standard 500k volume control with treble bleed (220k and 1nF) 3 Phase switch, using dpdt on-off-on switches. These will give you a clean fully disconnected off in the centre position, for both leads, and up for ‘on in-phase’, down for ‘on out-of- phase’ 4 4pdt on/on switches for series parallel assignment (as you have them)
then; 5 Master dpdt series parallel 6 Master volume and tone
In the above, I suggest the phase after the pup volume. I know I suggested differently before, but I think it is OK. It lets the phase switch cut the whole pup and volume circuit out completely when off The dead spots with this design will be if you have a pup off, and do not set it to parallel, then the rest of the series chain is cut. Also, if you have all on pups wired in series, or all in parallel, then the master S/P switch will need to be in one position.
I think you will get used to it though.
But heres the second suggestion:
Idea 2
This one is a lot more expensive, using 4pdtd on/on/on switches for series parallel (need five at $25-$30 each), letting them be set ‘parallel’, ‘off’, ‘series’
For each pickup, wire it in this order: 1 Pickup 2 Phase switch, standard dpdt 3 Standard 500k volume control with treble bleed (220k and 1nF) 4 4pdt on/on/on for each pup, to set series, off, para
then: 5 Master dpdt series parallel 6 Master volume and tone
What I think is possible with this scheme is that the 4pdt’s can look after the on and off correctly, so you only have one switch to check when going on or off. This gets rid of the main dead spots (first type described above), but there will still be the need to set the master S/P switch appropriately when you only use P or only S settings.
Personally, I think this scheme is too expensive, even though quite cool. If you like the sound of it though, I can try to sketch a channel of it.
Cheers
John
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peterrabbit
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Post by peterrabbit on Aug 7, 2010 20:05:45 GMT -5
Hey Newey (I think I'll start calling myself 'Oldie'): "This diagram is rapidly getting too complicated to follow. I think you/we would be better off trying to evaluate this as a schematic." I would agree, except I don't currently speak schematics. "Also, with your new switches, it is not clear whether the black wire is making a connection to the bottom lug or just 'crossing over'." If a wire runs through a lug, it is connected there. There are no just "crossing overs" except when a wire crosses another wire - I have shown this as a bridge. "It is also confusing that these are shown as "SPDT" switches with 3 lugs but labeled as "On/off". I know, you were referring to the use of the switch to turn each pup off, and not the internal configuration of the switch itself. A SP "On/off" switch has only 2 lugs, and is a SPST switch, which confused me at first." Fixed - I think! "Assume pup #1 is "off" on the radio switch, and that we want to make pup#2 in series with pup#3. This means both 4P switches for #2 and #3 would be set to "series", the master S/P would be set to "series", and the new switches would be set to "on" for #2 and #3, but "off" for #1 (since we want that pup out of the circuit). Tracing the signal with these assumptions, I get that both ends of the 2 pups go to the Vol. pot and don't find ground." I just traced the diagram below and I THINK that's solved. "I still think the "radio pot" idea is hampering you here, even if it works as intended you now have to manipulate 2 switches to disconnect any one pickup." O.K., regular pots. "BTW, "click off" pots with DPDT switches do exist, but I've never found any with a value >100KÙ." Very interesting! If I could find some 1Meg versions of those, I could eliminate the 2 problem children (click-pot & SPDT) Here are some changes - moved the Phase to after the volume as suggested earlier. Please advise on the On/Off (SPDT) wiring to put it in the parallel buss when Off. That SHOULD make turning off a pup's circuit a 1 switch affair. (Dang! Still forgot to show those treble bleeds!) Thanks for your continued interest in this project, I appreciate it a lot! Peter --------------- Famous last words: nice doggie!
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Post by newey on Aug 7, 2010 20:26:15 GMT -5
I think John makes an important point here. If this is to be a "test bed" to evaluate tonal variations to be implemented elsewhere, then you want what you hear on the test bed to emulate what it will sound like installed on another guitar.
The more you load the test bed circuit with multiple pots, the further you will get away from the true sound of the particular combination. And the more chances for introducing noise into the equation. Of course, different pickups will also affect the results, but I think you would want to make the test bed as simple as possible to mimic the end result, as installed elsewhere, as closely as possible.
For this reason, and others, I think John's "Idea 2" is an elegant way to go- but costly as he points out.
My 4-pickup Strat, the 4Caster, deals with the problems of complexity by breaking the 4 pups down into 2 pairs of two, so that it switches like 2 2-pickup guitars which can then be combined. But of course it doesn't approach getting all possible combos of 4 pickups, let alone 5.
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Post by sumgai on Aug 8, 2010 0:32:06 GMT -5
This project is beginning to sound more and more like it was made for this particular switch: Details can be found on the Stew-Mac site: Free-Way 6-position SwitchHTH sumgai
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peterrabbit
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Post by peterrabbit on Aug 8, 2010 2:04:30 GMT -5
JohnH: sorry, I posted that before I saw yours.
"Idea 1
Accept that when a pickup is off, you must also assign it to either parallel or series (depending on the wiring design). Either is possible, but I think parallel will be better."
I THINK I've taken care of that with the SPDTs.
"I think the radio switches are holding you back. Be free of them! Actually, when you use this guitar for its main purpose of mulling over subtle tone combinations, maybe it is better if you don’t need to turn the volumes down to switch off, but can do A/B changes just with toggles?"
Done.
So, for each pickup, wire it in this order: 1 Pickup 2 Standard 500k volume control with treble bleed (220k and 1nF) 3 Phase switch, using dpdt on-off-on switches. These will give you a clean fully disconnected off in the centre position, for both leads, and up for ‘on in-phase’, down for ‘on out-of- phase’"
Can do, but if done that way, is it still possible to have it automatically switch to parallel, as the SPDTs should do?
4 4pdt on/on switches for series parallel assignment (as you have them)
then; 5 Master dpdt series parallel 6 Master volume and tone
"In the above, I suggest the phase after the pup volume. I know I suggested differently before, but I think it is OK. It lets the phase switch cut the whole pup and volume circuit out completely when off."
Did that anyway.
"The dead spots with this design will be if you have a pup off, and do not set it to parallel, then the rest of the series chain is cut."
Would you check my wiring for the SPDT, please and thank you.
"Also, if you have all on pups wired in series, or all in parallel, then the master S/P switch will need to be in one position. I think you will get used to it though."
Guess I'll have to. No probs.
"But here's the second suggestion:
Idea 2
This one is a lot more expensive, using 4pdtd on/on/on switches for series parallel (need five at $25-$30 each), letting them be set ‘parallel’, ‘off’, ‘series’.
Whoa there! $125 -150 for switches? That's WAY too expensive for a sub $250 axe!
"Personally, I think this scheme is too expensive, even though quite cool."
I agree completely.
Thanks again, again.
Peter -----------------
Famous Last Words: "Give me the lighter, I'll see if there's any gas left."
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peterrabbit
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Post by peterrabbit on Aug 8, 2010 2:21:31 GMT -5
Newey: "I think John makes an important point here. If this is to be a "test bed" to evaluate tonal variations to be implemented elsewhere, then you want what you hear on the test bed to emulate what it will sound like installed on another guitar.
The more you load the test bed circuit with multiple pots, the further you will get away from the true sound of the particular combination. And the more chances for introducing noise into the equation. Of course, different pickups will also affect the results, but I think you would want to make the test bed as simple as possible to mimic the end result, as installed elsewhere, as closely as possible."
That's why I'm trying to deload the full circuit of unused pups and their attendant pots.
sumgai: Yes, I've seen and thought about those Free-Way Pickup Switches, and decided: 1 - they are just too pricey for this project 2 - I can't see trying to use 5 of those in close proximity with each other
You guys are just posting to fast for me to keep up! I love it!!! Mind you, it IS saturday night here and I'm actually at a party right now, so - gotta go!
Thanks again, again and again.
Peter
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Post by newey on Aug 8, 2010 7:28:20 GMT -5
Is it just me, am I missing something here? I am not seeing how the latest iteration works: Let's try to make a series chain of pickups. Assume the Master series/parallel DPDT is set to "series". Assume each 4P is also set to series. First, start from the volume pot hot line (see lavender tracing). If the new SPDT switch is set to "on" (as you have designated), we just get a big loop to ground, the signal never goes through a pickup. I only ran the line to the second pup, but you get the idea. At the other end, and assuming the new SPDT switch is set to "off" at pup #5, the signal does go through the pickup (shown as arrows in and out). If the Radio pot switch is "off", we get no signal, and with the SPDT 'likewise "off", the pickup is disconnected from the circuit as you intend. Turning the radio switch "on", and leaving the SPST set to "off" (per your designation) sends the hot line to the volume control, resulting in that pup being "always on" in parallel with whatever else is selected. I don't think that's what you intended. I'm sure someone will correct me if I'm wrong here, but I'm not seeing how this works with the new switches in the mix.
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Post by sumgai on Aug 8, 2010 11:39:39 GMT -5
pr, I've seen and thought about those Free-Way Pickup Switches, and decided: 1 - they are just too pricey for this project 2 - I can't see trying to use 5 of those in close proximity with each other Well, the way I see it, you either attain your goal, and keep some money in your pocket, or...... As for "usefulness in close proximty", better watch it - that's getting close to grounds for ejection from the NutzHouse. Afterall, Runewalker can do it! HTH sumgai
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peterrabbit
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Post by peterrabbit on Aug 8, 2010 14:45:38 GMT -5
newey "Dat Cool Cat!": "Is it just me, am I missing something here?"
Well, I replaced the click-pots with regular pots in the last diagram.
"Let's try to make a series chain of pickups. Assume the Master series/parallel DPDT is set to "series". Assume each 4P is also set to series. First, start from the volume pot hot line. If the new SPDT switch is set to "on" (as you have designated), we just get a big loop to ground, the signal never goes through a pickup."
Uh-oh! Clearly mis-wired the SPDT. And what's the fix for dat?
"At the other end, and assuming the new SPDT switch is set to "off" at pup #5, the signal does go through the pickup (shown as arrows in and out). If the Radio pot switch is "off", we get no signal, and with the SPDT 'likewise "off", the pickup is disconnected from the circuit as you intend. Turning the radio switch "on", and leaving the SPST set to "off" (per your designation) sends the hot line to the volume control, resulting in that pup being "always on" in parallel with whatever else is selected. I don't think that's what you intended."
Definately not intended to do that! I assume that by using regular, non-click pots, the pot will then be ON all the time, as per your second scenario. Can this be fixed by re-wiring the SPDT or do I need a DPDT? and how would I wire that? The object of this part is to get the pup that's OFF directed to the parallel buss.
sumgai: "As for 'usefulness in close proximty', better watch it - that's getting close to grounds for ejection from the NutzHouse.
NO-NO-NO-NO can't have that!!! I swear I'll never do it again, just DON'T EJECT ME FROM HEAVEN!
"After all, Runewalker can do it!"
Is that 'Strat' for real?
I love this stuff!
Peter ------------
Favorite country song titles: I hate every bone in her body - 'cept mine.
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Post by D2o on Aug 8, 2010 15:16:00 GMT -5
The only thing I've been paying attention to here is the clever and amusing "Favorite Country Song Titles", for which I must award you +1. Thanks for the good laughs! D2o FCST: He stood there, looking at her through the window, through the pane.
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peterrabbit
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Post by peterrabbit on Aug 8, 2010 20:09:23 GMT -5
D2o: I've got a few more - keep watching! So, guys, does this IN ANY WAY resemble my diagram? I'm really trying to understand schematics. I built this using a free thing called SmartDraw - it doesn't show how circuits are interconnected, but, like I said, its free. Peter ---------- Favorite country song titles: I've got tears in my ears from lying in my bed crying over you
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