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Post by JFrankParnell on Aug 26, 2010 13:43:34 GMT -5
Ever wish you could manipulate one of the switches on your guitar with your foot? Unless you are A. a contortionist and 2. have really good balance, not gonna happen is it? Enter the relay. Its a 'remote control' switch that is activated by some low voltage (12v, 24v, etc) current. So, my vision is, what if you had the switch part of it, doing whatever it is on your guitar that you want. Then, you'd have to have a wire running down to the floor with your foot pedal and a small power supply. I wonder if there would be any gotchas to this idea? The one i can think of is, if you have your guitar cord and your relay power together, maybe make a custom cord, or maybe you just tape the relay wire to your guitar cord, would that voltage create noise in your signal. I know there are 'latching' relays that only require one little bump of juice to switch to one position and one bump to switch to the other, so there wouldnt be power running along that wire the whole time, so maybe that would be ok. Discuss ;D
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Post by wolf on Aug 26, 2010 14:30:33 GMT -5
Since the mechanical relays use up a lot of power (for a guitar circuit), it is probably a heck of a lot better to use solid state relays. Mechanical relays also create electromagnetic interference. Hasn't the subject of electronic switching been discussed before?
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Post by ashcatlt on Aug 26, 2010 14:52:57 GMT -5
The control voltage is going to be DC, and won't be able to get through the "capacitor" that lies between the signal wires and the control wire. No real worries there.
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Post by jcgss77 on Aug 26, 2010 18:02:30 GMT -5
Hmmm.....
If you have active pups, a preamp, active eq, and/or a buffer, can you power it also from this source at the same time? I mean, if you are gonna go a little out, why not go full out?
Footswitchable Bass, midrange, AND treble boosts.
Hey, maybe there IS a use for the Gibson Robot... Footswitchable downtuning! Go from standard tuning to drop-D or even drop-C in seconds at a flick of the foot!!!!!
Ok, I am better now...sorry about the sillly ideas...Good idea, JFP. In my Hamer, the pup switch is under the bridge and is VERY hard to get to on the fly. I would like to see how this idea blows wide open.
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Post by sumgai on Aug 26, 2010 19:14:23 GMT -5
Enter the first steps of a digitally controlled analog switching circuit.......
Baby-sized steps, to be sure, but nonetheless.....
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Post by JFrankParnell on Aug 26, 2010 20:13:47 GMT -5
haha, yeah, rig up some foot controlled rack and pinion control knobs I heard that Neil young had an amp set up like that, but i cant find it now. pretty good idea to power your active stuff with the same power supply.
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Post by JohnH on Aug 26, 2010 23:09:33 GMT -5
haha, yeah, rig up some foot controlled rack and pinion control knobs I heard that Neil young had an amp set up like that, but i cant find it now. That would be his 'Whizzer' with which he controlled his amp.. I cant get too excited about relays into guitars. But it wouldn't be too hard to take the signals from two or three pickups down through a multicore cable, to some foot-operated switching. Two pickups coud be dealt with just with 2-core mic cable and a TRS jack. There are 4 core cables that are also quite robust and practical too. John
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Post by gumbo on Aug 27, 2010 1:44:29 GMT -5
...only 4 wires?? ....sg & I have had 13 for ages.....
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Post by ashcatlt on Aug 27, 2010 8:05:36 GMT -5
Well, if One was to use a mic cable for a 2 pup guitar, it would eliminate the possibility of series/parallel switching. You could have one or the other (permanently) but not both. Oh, I guess you could do the S/P switching on the guitar, with pickup selection on the floor... Likewise with phase switching.
Most midi cables have 5 wires plus a shield, which would give all 6 wires from a 3 SC guitar. My strat (HHH) would need 12 wires to get all possible combos.
Then I wonder how the cable capacitance will affect things.
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Post by JohnH on Aug 27, 2010 16:14:15 GMT -5
I was mainly thinking of just putting a basic pickup selection on the floor, N, B, N+B, or maybe Strat options for a 3 Sc setup.
I think you're right about cable capacitance however, particularly if a series connection was being created via the floor, since the signals would have to make an extra lap up and down the cord. But paralel selections should be no different in that regard.
Volume and tone pots can also be down at the floor, with switcheable settings. The floor box could then go via a short patch cable to the tuner and other pedals, hence minimising treble loss at reduced volume.
its got me thinking....OK, lets say theres a basic two pickup guitar. No pots or switches at all on the guitar, for a minimalist look, and approvable by newey (I think he likes that sort of thing)
Stereo TRS jack cable, a simple robust item, to send both pickup signals down to the floor box. And if you need to use a standard cord straight to an amp, it still works with just one pickup.
Then on the floor box, theres two V and two T controls, and two stomp switches. One selects neck/bridge, and another, which overides the first, selects one-pup/two-pup.
That gives a one stomp action to go from any two settings, and finally gives a way to change from a neck or middle rythym setting to a louder bridge lead setting without missing a beat.
Add a kill switch down there just for fun
hmmm...I might want one
(now back to discussion of relays...)
John
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Post by newey on Aug 27, 2010 20:02:08 GMT -5
sumgai said:
Well, if one went that route, why not use an onboard RF receiver and a transmitter in the pedal and go wireless?
JohnH noted that:
Yep, that's Newey-approved! But only in theory, as I have not yet actually built such a guitar.
How far away are we from the day when I can just think "Bridge and neck, in series, out of phase" and get it?
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Post by JFrankParnell on Aug 27, 2010 21:11:36 GMT -5
How far away are we from the day when I can just think "Bridge and neck, in series, out of phase" and get it? Oh man, I'm gonna be first inline! (now back to discussion of relays...) Oh, heck with relays, I'm all into the foot switches now! Really, that's do-able?
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Post by JohnH on Aug 27, 2010 21:47:22 GMT -5
Oh, heck with relays, I'm all into the foot switches now! Really, that's do-able? The simple version I described, thats a slam-dunk, no-brainer easy as pie option that will work straight out of the box. Batteries not included since none required. EDIT: OK, maybe it might want a battery, just to power a couple of LEDs to tell what the switches are doing cheers John
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Post by newey on Aug 27, 2010 23:01:02 GMT -5
jfrank speculated on an active circuit; I was thinking that some buffering would avoid any issues with cable capacitance. Might not this work better as an active circuit?
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Post by ashcatlt on Aug 28, 2010 1:18:40 GMT -5
jfrank speculated on an active circuit; I was thinking that some buffering would avoid any issues with cable capacitance. Might not this work better as an active circuit? If we accept only the parallel versions, it might. We could put a buffer for each pickup inside the guitar, and have the switching happen on the floor. The thing here, though, is that part of what we hear when we combine two passive pickups in parallel comes from the "parallelization" of the inductance and resistance of the coils. You should get more treble out of two pickups in parallel than you would get out of either by itself. This can't happen if there's buffers in the way, though an active circuit might be able to give us an approximation. I can't see any way this would allow true series options, though an active filter/boost might be a way to fake it. It is possible - and relatively easy - to flip phase using active circuitry.
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Post by Yew on Aug 28, 2010 4:38:35 GMT -5
You know what wouuld be cool, a WAh-style pedal that controls pikcup selection, like inthe middle is both, forward is Neck. and fullbackis bridge, I reacon that would be an interesting sound...
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Post by newey on Aug 28, 2010 7:52:25 GMT -5
Ash said:
Good point. We don't want to lose what we liked about our pickups in the first place.
Yew's idea was:
Looks like we might be moving from general speculation to a specific program. First, find a Volume pedal suitable for modding. Change the input to a TRS style for the 2 signal conductors (or add an extra TS input). Replace the pot with a Blend pot, with each pickup wired to one half. Buffer/boost the output. Use as short a cable as possible from the guitar to the pedal.
This would then give one pickup full on with the pedal down, the other full on with it up, and a blend of the 2 in between. I'm not sure if this would be a situation where a common ground on a TRS cable might be a problem; if so, dual TS cables could be used to separate the grounds.
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Post by JohnH on Aug 28, 2010 8:16:54 GMT -5
I think that for a switched arrangement, buffering to control cable capacitance effects would not be any more necessary than usual, for a parallel-only set up, which is all most people have. That would allow all the interactions between pickups and with tone controls as normal. Provided the cable from guitar to box is a normal 10', and then from box to pedals is just a short patch then its actually much better (more consistent) than usual if volume is reduced. Tone is maintained closely, without treble bleed parts needed.
Series is out.
If there are no buffered pedals, then I think a single buffer could be useful at the end of the circuit, before it goes off to the amp.
Yews 'blend/wah' idea would take it further, but I think buffering after and maybe before the blend pot circuit could be good in that case.
A nice thing about this idea is that the guitar can be very simple, finished with great care and craftsmanship, and then not hacked further. The floor box can start with a simple passive switching, then add more switches, pots, lights, boosters, buffers and controls etc as an ongoing project, and rebuilt as often as desired. cheers John
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peterrabbit
Meter Reader 1st Class
My mileage DOES vary
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Post by peterrabbit on Aug 28, 2010 11:53:20 GMT -5
Hi folks.
How about eliminating all the controls from the guitar face except one, a Ser/Par switch embedded in a mounting ring similar to SD's Triple-Shot, which would send either setting to the floor pod.
I personally think that an axe-mounted vol would also be really useful - perhaps mostly hidden using a thumbwheel volume control installed edge-wise in the upper bout, or something like that.
Peter
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Post by newey on Aug 28, 2010 13:31:52 GMT -5
PR- The "control-less Strat" I was contemplating proposed thumbwheel pots. But "stealth" controls are not "no controls", nor are they on the floor, which is where this thread seems to be headed . . . In furtherance of Yew's Wah-pedal-as-pickup-control idea, I recall that "back in the day" there was something called a "Surf Wah" pedal, which operated bi-directionally. If you moved the pedal up/down, it gave a traditional wah effect, but it could also be moved side-to-side, giving a supposed "surf roar" effects. This was the first time I ever saw a "multi-effect pedal". Don't know how these operated, or whether they are still around somewhere (didn't hit the googles on this . . . ), but if so, I suppose we could theoretically control 2 pickup parameters, maybe blend on the up/down, phase on the side-to-side.
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Post by ashcatlt on Aug 28, 2010 16:06:11 GMT -5
I think it's fender (I didn't google either) had something similar where up and down was wah and side to side was volume. Not sure what actually goes on inside.
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Post by sumgai on Aug 28, 2010 16:56:39 GMT -5
I was there.... Fender did put out a "dual action" pedal, it had Volume as normally found, and Tone as a side-to-side thing. The actuator in each case was a waxed string(!), prone to breakage after awhile, and not too easy to replace. There was also a Fender Wah, but it used a separate switch, set off to the side instead of under the treadle, to go between volume and wah. As I recall, neither of them sold too well. A long time ago, a bass player came to me and asked to modify his Gibson EB-3 into a Stereo. One TRS jack* and one Fender Vol-Tone pedal later, we had a truly separated and fully blendable setup of Bridge-to-right and Neck-to-left, with a nice master to top it off. In those days, finding dual-gang true-blend pots was much easier..... When you guys are all done, I'll give you the low-down on how to accomplish the whole shootin' match, everything discussed so far in this thread. And the first clue is - yes, it can be done. IOW, don't say "can't" unless you've done the design - I have. <snicker> sumgai * And of course one two-conductor-w/ground cable, ala a standard mic cable minus the XLR connectors. However, if you had to for some reason, you could still plug in a regular guitar cable, and you'd still get some sound, in this case the Bridge pup (IIRC).
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Post by JFrankParnell on Aug 28, 2010 22:12:09 GMT -5
And the first clue is - yes, it can be done. lol, sumgai. That *is* though, a very important clue! Like how he waves the carrot in front of the proverbial nose of the whole forum?
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Post by JohnH on Aug 28, 2010 23:40:55 GMT -5
Here's a simple version of a floor box, just with switched selections: There's a switch for neck or bridge, and another that overides it to select both. Each channel has V and T pots, and theres a solo switch that jumps up to full volume from whatever is set, and a kill switch. A buffer is optional at the end of the circuit. I think a thing like that could make for some very articulate pickup control, to make quick changes. John
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Post by JFrankParnell on Dec 10, 2010 13:54:05 GMT -5
Would either of these two schemes work to put the 'solo' or '11' switch on a floor pedal?
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Post by JohnH on Dec 10, 2010 14:14:30 GMT -5
I decline to comment on whether or not the second diagram works at all!
The first one is clear enough, but there are 3 hot wires plus ground going from guitar to pedal, so it would need a sepcial lead and plug/socket deal (maybe XLR?). As noted before, the extra capacitance will dull the tone somewhat, since the signal tarvels up and down the lead three times.
John
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Post by JFrankParnell on Dec 10, 2010 15:26:11 GMT -5
haha, I'm pretty sure about the wiring. Ok, right, that seems like too many trips.
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Post by JFrankParnell on Apr 1, 2011 14:19:27 GMT -5
I was thinking on this floor switching, esp regarding the 'solo' or 'blower'. It seems that one could put a trs jack in the guitar, with one wire hooked to the normal output of the circuit and one hooked straight to the bridge. Using a trs cable, your floor switch would just select between the two. You could always hook a normal cord to the guitar and it would be... normal. Right?
There has been discussion on whether its desirable to have a pup hooked up without vol/tone. So, wrt my idea above, to simulate a vol pot, you could install a (switchable) resistor, 250 or 500k, right? This resistor would go in series with the hot wire?
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Post by JohnH on Apr 1, 2011 14:51:00 GMT -5
I was thinking on this floor switching, esp regarding the 'solo' or 'blower'. It seems that one could put a trs jack in the guitar, with one wire hooked to the normal output of the circuit and one hooked straight to the bridge. Using a trs cable, your floor switch would just select between the two. Yep, I think that bits fine, the 2 core cable could be standard mic cable with TRS jacks. One core goes to the volume pot centre lug (ie as normal), the other goes to the vol pot hot outer lug for full volume. The floor switch selects which. That bit is trickier, but yes, if you also had a small switch on the guitar to disconnect the connection to the volume outer lug. Otherwise, in the arrangement above, it would get shorted to ground when a standard plug went in. No need if as above, since the volume pot is always loading the pickups, the only difference is whether you connect to the centre lug for variable volume, or the outre lug for full volume. But, is it not easier to have just a simple volume pot on a switched box on the floor? , so no need for changes in the guitar. Guitar is on full volume for your lead tone and you turn down the floor volume control to set your rhythm level, and stomp between them. Or, a simple one-stage active booster. cheers John
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Post by JFrankParnell on Apr 1, 2011 16:30:08 GMT -5
well, my normal modus operandi is to play rhythm on n+m or n+b and then switch to b for leads. This is my version of the 'solo' switch, as currently implemented in the Malibu Mod (upper diagram, above) . So, more than just a volume boost. But, this floor switcher would be a cool place to put booster, where you could stomp both switches at once.
I see now where the normal cord in a trs jack wouldnt work. And I see the need to switch on/off the capability to use a trs set up (in case of a need to revert to normal). Otoh, since the floor switch would be virtually fail-proof (no batteries, except for a led), I could probly forgo that provision. Hell, my guitar hardly leaves this room.
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