4PDT 3-position switch varieties?

[UnklMickey]

which of these switch variations are available for 4PDT 3 position mini-toggle switches?

#1 is certain.

i think #2 and #3 are likely.

[EDIT:]
i've completely reworked the drawing
[/EDIT:]


can anyone help?

thanks,

unk

EDIT:

thus far we have:

Variation:
1	Exists	As Drawn
2
3	Exists	pattern 3c
4
5	Exists	UNKNOWN PATTERN

[ChrisK]

#1 is certain. 4PDT center off or On-OFF-ON.

#2 I've never seen.

#3 is certain, but you've drawn it incorrectly. DP3T ON-ON-ON

Double the switch in the lower left corner of this:
guitarnuts2.proboards45.com/index.cgi?board=schem&action=display&thread=1153502513

#4 I've never seen.

#5 is certain, but you may have drawn it incorrectly. WD sells it as the "Kent Armstrong special Brian May switch", but They won't publish the pinout and I wont spend $20 plus shipping just to find out. Unfortunately, it ISN'T needed to realize the Brian May setup, three SP3T ON-ON-ON switches are half the price and do it just fine (series enable, shorted when off, and phase).

#6 is redundant with #1, what did you mean?

[UnklMickey]

thanks Chris,

i suspected #3 might be alternating rather than grouped.

actually there isn't a #6. i didn't mean anything there.

i just didn't erase that part of my template.

i also forgot to ask if any other variations were out there. (i'll edit my initial post)




i have a use for #4, but i can make do with #5.

any idea where i can get one?



unk

[wolf]

unklmickey
Actually, switch #2 can be easily made with 2 DPDT "center on" switches wired side by side.

ChrisK
Small correction here. A double throw switch is not a triple throw whether it has a center position or not.

[UnklMickey]

thanks Wolf,

there are times when that is useful, other times, it really is necessary for all 4 sections to be operated by a single lever.


also, were you not the one to post how a double throw 3 position switch was actually made to function as a triple throw?

guitarnuts2.proboards45.com/index.cgi?action=gotopost&board=wiring&thread=1147199115&post=1147277087

[ChrisK]

Here's what I know aboot them:



The WD Kent Armstrong switch has two poles of a DPDT ON-OFF-ON and two poles of a SP3T ON-ON-ON. Again, I 'aven't a clue as to pinout.

[ChrisK]

wolf,


The 6 terminal ON-ON-ON switch IS a SP3T switch in designation. This was originally developed for selecting one of three motor windings (with a jumper wire) for rudimentary speed control (fans).

The 12 terminal ON-ON-ON switch IS a DP3T switch in designation. This is an extrapolation of the above switch.


Any switch that has three distinctive positions (and certainly three distinct switching states) IS a three position (throw) switch.

www.nkkswitches.com/pdf/MtogglesBushing.pdf

[UnklMickey]

thanks Chris,

that NKK link will probably be useful to glean more info when i have time to scour it properly.

as far a WD, at that price, i won't even bother.

$6 feels like about as high as i would want to go for a 4PDT.

maybe that's unrealistic, but $20 seems like a bendover.

Any switch that has three distinctive positions (and certainly three distinct switching states) IS a three position (throw) switch.

the three distinct switching states part kinda sounds like it puts this back on line.

but in general, many think of a xP3T as having 3 separate and isolated "outputs" for each pole.

using one of the specialized 4PDT with external wiring to get a DP3T result fits both your statement and what most would consider to be a DP3T.

but, if there exists a switch like #2 (i'm certain there is a DP version of that) then each pole could be seen as having "three distinct switching states", depending on how one interprets that phrase.

and it isn't IMHO a 3T.


are we back to the "you say po-tay-to, i say po-tah-to." thing?

[wolf]

ChrisK
If you think each switch "state" represents a "throw", then the light switch on my wall is a single pole double throw.
Okay one of the throws is "off" but it is another switching state.
I remember a standup comic saying he bought an 8 speed blender and then he found out one of the 'speeds' was "OFF". So, he said, if that's the case, then he has an eleven speed bicycle.

I won't belabor the point about whether a "throw" has to involve another switch terminal. No sense creating a brouhaha over a rather slight semantic issue. If you say it is a triple "throw" that's fine with me.
Unklmickey
Yes, I did create a SP3T switch from a DPDT on/on/on switch. However, I did have that jumper wire added in there. Also, notice it became an SP3T. I gained a "throw" but lost a pole.

[CheshireCat]

wolf said:

Unklmickey
Yes, I did create a SP3T switch from a DPDT on/on/on switch. However, I did have that jumper wire added in there. Also, notice it became an SP3T. I gained a "throw" but lost a pole.

And how did we do this conversion again?

[UnklMickey]

hi Chesh,

it originally appeared in this thread:

guitarnuts2.proboards45.com/index.cgi?action=gotopost&board=wiring&thread=1147199115&post=1147199115

here's Wolf's post:

wolf said:

Don't settle for that rotary switch just yet !!!

The type of switch is the DPDT on/on/on type you'll find on the first page of my guitar website section www.1728.com/guitar.htm
This in effect is a different method of a SP3T switch.
Have I succeeded? ;D
Feel free to award Karma points generously.

In the words of Inspector Clousseau, "Once again I have failed where others have succeeded."

from that i can extrapolate that there is probably a 4PDT that looks like #3d


cheers,

unk

[ChrisK]

from that i can extrapolate that there is probably a 4PDT that looks like #3d

Absolutely, I have several from DigiKey ($16'ish).

If you mirror image yer drawing, it will reflect (heh, heh) the real bottom-view pinout (Like my last drawing shows).


Yeah, there's an issue aboot whether we're talking aboot discrete switching functions or discrete handle locations.

A SPST switch does have two distinct positions (otherwise it wouldn't be a switch, but would be like the monode, that less than successful single terminal semiconductor). (Don't get me started on the Mogan Diode!)

I guess what I'm striving for is the use of the industry definition (which is less than universal in usage) for a 6 terminal ON-ON-ON as a SP3T and the 12 terminal ON-ON-ON as a DP3T. This is distinct and less cumbersome than the DPDT (or 4PDT) ON-ON-ON moniker.

As an OEM design engineer, I'm just real used to the XP3T way (and tired of typing ON-ON-ON, "ON and ON").

Of course, we still need the DPDT-CO (center off) moniker.

And yer bike is only an 11 speed if'n the chain can reliably set to be off of the Derailleur. ;D

[UnklMickey]

chrisk said:

...And yer bike is only an 11 speed if'n the chain can reliably set to be off of the Derailleur. ;D

that was never a problem.

i always had a knack for getting the chain off the Derailleur.

the problem was getting the blasted thing back ON.



another thing i'd like to know:

ON-ON -- indicates 2 positions only. pretty easy to understand.

ON-OFF-ON -- indicates 3 position, nothing connects to the poles when in the center position. another easy one.

ON-ON-ON -- that seems to be the different possible variations 2~5 we're discussing.

ON-NONE-ON -- WTF?


unk

[sumgai]

I absolutely can not believe this thread has carried on for 12 responses after the initial tongue-in-cheek inquiry.

Come on people, this has got to be on a par with sending the new guy to the parts counter to ask for "a can of RF", or perhaps "an AC battery".

Read it again (hell, it's even in the title) - 4PDT.... 3 position.....

What part of 2 throws (4 Pole, Double Throw) includes the ability to miraculously morph into having three throws??

I'm going outside now, I've received my laugh for the day - thanks!


sumgai

[UnklMickey]

no, i'm not sending you to Base Supply to get a gallon of propwash and 500 ft. of flightline.


i really am serious about the original question. no T.I.C. honest!



1 -- even though 3 positions, these 4-pole 12 terminal switches are called 4PDT.

i didn't coin the phrase, i'm just working with what's already there.

2 -- "What part of 2 throws (4 Pole, Double Throw) includes the ability to miraculously morph into having three throws??"

the "miracle" is in the way that the switch is externally connected.


the phraseology may seem silly, but laugh all you want, the switches are real, and could be one more tool in a wiring designer's arsenal.


unk

[wolf]

sumgai
Laugh all you want, but I believe the question to be for real.
A double pole double throw "center on" switch has 3 switching positions, but it is still a double pole double throw switch.

[ChrisK]

A double pole double throw "center on" switch has 3 switching positions, but it is still a double pole double throw switch.

Yes, it's a double pole switch and no, it's a DPDT-CO (center-off) switch (ON-OFF-ON) with 3 positions.

And the XPDT (or any number of poles) ON-NONE-ON IS a XPDT 2 position switch.


XPST "X" pole single throw 2 Position OFF-ON
2 terminals per pole

This switch has 2 positions and form A contacts (NO, COM). (Form A because the anti-rotation slot in the threaded mounting bushing defines the toggle OFF position.)


XPDT "X" pole double throw 2 Position ON-NONE-ON
3 terminals per pole

This switch has 2 positions and form C contacts (NO, COM, NC).


XPDT-CO "X" pole double throw center-off 3 Position ON-OFF-ON
3 terminals per pole

This switch has 3 positions and form C contacts (NO, COM, NC).


XP3T "X" pole 3 throw 3 Position ON-ON-ON
6 terminals per pole

This switch has 3 positions and 2 sets of form C contacts (NO, COM, NC) per pole, and staggered/sequential switching.

OR, it has 3 positions and one set of form C contacts per pole and perchance we should call it the XPDT-SS (sequential switching) or the XPDT-OOO (ON-ON-ON).


To call it just an XPDT switch is to cause much confusion with its more pedestrian sibling.

Of course, it already does have a name, it's the [X/2]P3T or XPDT ON-ON-ON.

[UnklMickey]

chrisk said:

...Of course, it already does have a name, it's the [X/2]P3T or XPDT ON-ON-ON...

thanks Chris, that should end all the confusion..................(snicker).



but seriously, i do think i understand all that you've just said, and agree.

it might take just a moment or two to digest it all.


according to what you are saying:

XPDT ON-ON and XPDT ON-NONE-ON are synonymous?

any idea why they would use 2 different conventions for the same thing?


thanks,

unk

[ChrisK]

according to what you are saying:

XPDT ON-ON and XPDT ON-NONE-ON are synonymous?

any idea why they would use 2 different conventions for the same thing?

I dunno, some kid's peoples!

[ChrisK]

Here's another link to a manufacturer's series. It shows the switching states of the handle, unfortunately the switching states for the contacts on the ON-ON-ON units are just plain wrong.

www.e-switch.com/pdf/Series100Toggle.pdf

Proofreading is.

[UnklMickey]

obviously wrong!

if you go to page 3, the states for position 2 and position 3 are IDENTICAL.

we know that can't be right.

the other thing that's totally cheesy: the handle positions are shown right to left.

but the terminals are shown top to bottom.



i'm beginning to think switch manufacturers don't give a $h!+ if you can figure out what their switches do.

just buy lots of different types, and eventually you might find one that does what you need it to.


unk