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Post by iheartmylespauls on Sept 4, 2006 21:42:30 GMT -5
Hey,
im on a quest to know any and everything about the insides of a guitar.
This will sound like a very stupid question, but i'm just curious.
Can anyone explain exactly HOW a 5 way switch works? Pics and diagrams would really help.
;D
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Post by CheshireCat on Sept 5, 2006 1:20:57 GMT -5
Hey, im on a quest to know any and everything about the insides of a guitar. This will sound like a very stupid question, but i'm just curious. Can anyone explain exactly HOW a 5 way switch works? Pics and diagrams would really help. ;D Short answer follows. Longer answer forthcoming . . . Assuming we are talking blade switches, like on a Tele or a Strat, they are identical, except that the five-way has two extra "in-between" detents that allows the sweeper to park between two adjacent terminals, putting those two pickups in parallel. IOW, the 1-2-3 on a Tele 3-way bladeswitch correspond to the 1-3-5 on a Strat 5-way bladeswitch, only the 5-way is a 5-way because there are two extra detents between the 1 and 2 (now dubbed 1 and 3) and between the 2 and 3 (now 3 and 5). That's what allows you to go from: 1 - Neck X 2 - Middle X 3 - Bridge . . . to . . . 1 - Neck 2 - Neck/Middle 3 - Middle 4 - Middle/Bridge 5 - Bridge Now, when dealing with a bladeswitch, most people here prefer a SuperSwitch, which has four poles with five discrete positions. IOW, no jumpers from one position to the next. They give you a great deal more flexibility than a de rigueur bladeswitch, which as mentioned only has three terminals for the pickup inputs, and only two poles, which often aren't fully utilitized. Now, if you are talking about an LP 3-way switch, that is a different kettle of fish altogether. More later. Chesh |
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Post by flateric on Sept 5, 2006 5:26:39 GMT -5
  courtesy of SK guitar specialities |
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Post by UnklMickey on Sept 5, 2006 9:10:39 GMT -5
hi ♭Eric, welcome back. the lower animation is just how a stock 5-way switch works (well most of 'em, anyway). but the upper one is a 3-way STRAT switch. ya know, the one the old timers used to wedge toothpicks into the levers, to hold them in the intermediate positions. that should not be confused with a 3-way Tele switch. it doesn't work like the picture. [EDIT] the Tele switch looks exactly the same, but requires a bit of wiring to make it function in the N N+B B fashion.  [/EDIT] unk |
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Post by sumgai on Sept 5, 2006 13:59:50 GMT -5
unk,
I see two illustrations posted in a single message by ♭eric, and both of them look exactly the same to me.
It's now a few hours after your post, do you supposed they've changed in that time?
sumgai
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Post by ccoleman on Sept 5, 2006 14:21:04 GMT -5
look more closely...
the first amimation is a 3way switch
the second animation is a 5way switch
they look AlMOst the same..
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Post by sumgai on Sept 5, 2006 17:37:48 GMT -5
hearty, CheshireCat gave you a very correct technical description, lemme see if I can break that down for you. EDITChanged image below, and added another link for reference. /editI'll start by describing the very first switch Leo Fender used in the Esquire and Broadcaster guitars of yore. Essentially, these are unchanged to this day, although modern Strat playing styles have made it necessary to come up with some modified switches. In the most basic form, you have a terminal called the common point, which is a piece of copper/brass material has a bent "tab" at the end of it. Another piece of flattened material is made to slide under that tab, and the two pieces will remain in contact at all times. (The sliding action is due to the rotation of the shaft.) However, at the end of said moveable piece, there is an extension that slides under additional tabs, from other terminals on the switch. That extension contacts only one, or at most, two other tabs. Once it is moved away, it loses contact (and moves on to make new contact with different tab (yet another terminal)). See the photo below. In this way, we can make a pickup select where it is fed to (which control), or we can make a control select which pickup will feed it. Moreover, if we "stack" multiple tab/terminal sets (aka "poles"), all of them sharing the same shaft, then we are capable of multiple control operations with one physical action (a simple flick of the wrist). That's what allows us to control several pickups at once, or select among tone controls (ala the Strat), or even do phase-reversal for some combinations. To make matters more muddy, the original switches, from late '49 up to about the early '70s were all 3-way, or 3 position units. But stars like Jimi H. and Roger W. were making history with the "inbetween" settings, thus forcing Fender to recognize the desirable tone combo's, and make them available to everyone. From then until now, nearly all Strats have come with some sort of 5-way switch. (By that I mean, there have been several versions.) The illustration(s) posted by ♭eric (above) are of a cheap switch made "oveseas" that is very limited. It appears to be a 3-way switch, but looks can be deceiving. As unk notes, the number of detents is what counts, and that's not shown here. Some early 5-way switches were "converted" 3-way jobbies, they simply had extra detents on the lever, and the "extended" common portion contacted two tabs at a time in those two extra positions. The following image was taken from Guitar Center's website. This is a Superswitch, as sold in today's world. (They'd like you to think that DiMarzio somehow has a special version, therefore worth Big Bux, but that's not true. DiMarzio is simply importing and wholesaling them to GuitarCenter, for even higher markup to you!) It has four poles total, two on each deck.  Guitar Center also has a lot of other switches, from economy to expensive. Check 'em out at Guitar Center switches. You can find a variety of switches at Rockinger, including the new MegaSwitch, from Germany - Rockinger's page of switchesHope all that helped! sumgai |
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Post by sumgai on Sept 5, 2006 17:40:43 GMT -5
cc, Animation? I don't see no steenkin' animation! No further comment, thank you.  sumgai |
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Post by UnklMickey on Sept 5, 2006 18:34:41 GMT -5
hey,
an interesting bit about the original strat 3-way.
it was used "straight" as a DP3T switch in a Strat.
and wired as a SPDT center-ON in a Tele.
but i just realized, since Wolf showed how to wire a 4PDT ON-ON-ON as a DP3T,
that means we could further wire that to get a SPDT center-ON.
could be real useful, if you needed a SPDT center-ON, but only had a 4PDT ON-ON-ON.
LSH....
unk
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Post by ChrisK on Sept 5, 2006 23:09:52 GMT -5
It is a DP3T switch in both cases, period. Whether used in a Strat with one pole selecting 1 of 3 pickups and the other selecting tone controls, or in a Tele where a pole is needed per pickup due to the combination of two pickups in the middle position (which can be realized either by connecting each pickup to a pole wiper and wiring the out line accordingly, or connecting the out line to both pole wipers and wiring the pickups accordingly), it is a DP3T. Each pole has 3 discrete selected terminals, one per position. It isn't, whatever this is. This is a direct scaling of the conversion of a DPDT ON-ON-ON to a SP3T. SPDT center-On seems to be a new paradigm, er sumpthin. If you're trying to say that a 4PDT ON-ON-ON can be wired for use in a Tele, you are correct. Well, half-way since a DPDT ON-ON-ON (SP3T) will suffice. For the DPDT ON-ON-ON (SP3T if so wired), as a duality to the DPDT center OFF, the DPDT center-ON moniker actually sounds good. The 4PDT ON-ON-ON would actually be a 4PDT center-ON. However, I'm not entirely certain that I want to encourage such behavior.  ? |
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Post by UnklMickey on Sept 6, 2006 0:02:07 GMT -5
"and wired as a SPDT center-ON in a Tele."
"It isn't, whatever this is." okay Chris, i'll admit the terminology is a bit wobbly. do you have a concise description for the functionality of a Tele or LP switch? i had considered using "SPDT ON-ON-ON", but i don't think that's standard terminology either.
It is a DP3T switch in both cases, period.
... by the same logic, instead of this: since Wolf showed how to wire a 4PDT ON-ON-ON as a DP3T,
This is a direct scaling of the conversion of a DPDT ON-ON-ON to a SP3T. one could say: "It is a 4PDT ON-ON-ON switch in both cases, period." but, one wouldn't. ...If you're trying to say that a 4PDT ON-ON-ON can be wired for use in a Tele, you are correct. Well, half-way since a DPDT ON-ON-ON (SP3T) will suffice....
....However, I'm not entirely certain that I want to encourage such behavior.... well at least you get that, even if you don't enjoy the humor. unk |
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Post by sumgai on Sept 6, 2006 3:06:23 GMT -5
unk,
Tele: DP3T, pure and simple. Back in the late 40's, these things were more common than hookers on the Strip after the Navy came into port. Hell, I can personally attest to post-war era surplus military commo gear having these switches coming out of their tukas, for something like three decades after said war.
I needn't repeat Chris's imprecation that a switch is named on how it is built, and can be used, not on how it is actually used. Refer back to that monster picture you PM'd me a moment ago, and all should become crystal clear. ;D
LP: This one's tougher, much tougher. It's really a pair of SPST switches mounted on a common frame such that only the "on" throw overlaps between the two switches. I don't know that I've ever seen an attempt to reduce that to a FLA, have you?
sumgai
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Post by ChrisK on Sept 6, 2006 20:16:07 GMT -5
Well, hmmmm, perchance it's a DPST center-OVERLAP SWITCH since there ARE two separate SPST switches that have to be wired in common. I have seen the expanded version used in the three pickup Gib$ons that are two SPDT switches. Since these are also staged, they are in reality a DPDT ON-ON-ON or DPDT CST switch. We can have a SPDT COF (center OFF), the cheep Asian variant. We can have a SPDT CON (center ON) which seems impossible except as below in a LP (essentially the same). We can have a SPDT COL (center OVERLAP) We can have a DPDT ON-ON-ON which can be wired as a SP3T, both descriptions are incomplete and misleading. I propose DP3T CST (for center staged). Of course, the 4PDT ON-ON-ON would become the 4PDT CST. I tend to feel that the DPDT CST really should be the DP3T CST. Let's give the positions recognition. The WD Kent Armstrong switch would become the DPDT CST + DPDT COF. By the way, I found a hand-drawn schematic that is (of course) unnumbered, but I can discern the pinout. Ok dokey dokey. Hows aboot the following. xPST - simple, has 2 positions xP3T COF - really has 3 positions (was xPDT C-OFF) xP3T CON - really has 3 positions (was xPDT On-ON-ON, er [x/2]P3T when wired so) so maybe it's the xP3T CON for all encapsulations or partials thereof period, without incurring an aneurysm by getting stuck in a stupid loop, leading to a brain cramp. And then, I'll distill the following into a simple pictorial of all such!  |
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Post by ChrisK on Sept 6, 2006 23:01:34 GMT -5
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Post by UnklMickey on Sept 7, 2006 11:35:21 GMT -5
...I needn't repeat Chris's imprecation that a switch is named on how it is built, and can be used, not on how it is actually used....
...LP: This one's tougher, much tougher. It's really a pair of SPST switches mounted on a common frame such that only the "on" throw overlaps between the two switches.... okay, if you want to go that route, i think your description of the LP switch doesn't. unless you mean that it's a pair of spst ON-ON-OFF switches. (one of which being oriented to OFF-ON-ON) but, i doubt you will find consensus in the switch manufacturers on that designation either. the problem here is, SPST switches are not considered to have 3 positions. yet we have a commonly used (in this community anyway) switch that although simple, doesn't readily fit into existing terminology. unk |
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Post by UnklMickey on Sept 7, 2006 11:44:07 GMT -5
Chris,
i think that tele 4-way 2PDT is a typo?
it will take a while longer for me to thoroughly review the text.
unk
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Post by ChrisK on Sept 7, 2006 17:49:50 GMT -5
Yeah, I fixed it for the switch template under review.
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Post by sumgai on Sept 7, 2006 19:58:52 GMT -5
unk,
Sorry, unk, but it looks like you've made the all-too-common error here. The SPST switch does not have three positions, it's the mounting frame that has 'em. The switch just has two ways to go, on or off, but the frame, which carries the handle, allows an extended range of motion for the handle in the 'on' position of either individual switch. This is why it's a tough duck to put a name to, most other switches don't have that extra range of motion that essentially does nothing for the switch/pole in question.
If I may paraphrase a well-known personage.......
On is. ;D
sumgai
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Post by UnklMickey on Sept 7, 2006 20:16:46 GMT -5
...Sorry, unk, but it looks like you've made the all-too-common error here. The SPST switch does not have three positions, it's the mounting frame that has 'em. ... i think i already had that covered: ...the problem here is, SPST switches are not considered to have 3 positions.... |
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