guitarmole
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Post by guitarmole on Sept 24, 2006 17:41:26 GMT -5
Could anyone check some concerns for me? First the filler material: The following attachment is a circuit based on the Tonemonster2 schematic found on these forums. www.impulselabs.org/Personal/Eric/Music/HSH%20wiring3%20copy.gifI've modified it so that it functions in a H-S-H guitar. I realize the humbuckers are out of phase. I haven't started up the prog to correct it so they are in-phase but will make the change. I also realized that trimmer caps come in dinky picofarad values once I started looking for them (unless I wanted mondo ham variable plate caps), so I can't be using a variable cap for tone tuning afterall Features:independant pickup on/off regardless of operational mode (same as TM2) series/parallel switch (same as TM2) omitted blender and phase pots from TM2 independant coil splitters on humbuckers (my addition) humbuckers wired in series operation (I wanna rock!) The legend is a bit off since I copied/pasted parts to manipulate the circuit and mentally chase traces. L1 and L2 make up the bridge pickup L3 is the single coil middle pickup L4 and L4 make up the neck pickup P1 connected to L1/2 is the bridge tone pot (push/pull) 500k P1 connected to L4/5 is the neck tone pot (push/pull) 500k P2 is the master volume pot, 500k both push/pull tone pots to control individual coil splitting Main reason for excluding phase and blender pots is intuitiveness and simplicity for myself. Blending and phasing controls push past my comfort level with the existing myriad of configurations as-is Arrangement:The push/pull tone pots should be pretty straight-forward. Each pot controls the coil splitting and tone of one humbucker. Logically located in a line roughly parallel to pickup layout so it roughly lines up with the humbucker it controls. Three on-on DPDT toggles control the H-S-H pickups. It turns them off or on. Will drill three holes where the 5-way switch slot is and nestle them side-by-side so they correspond to the H-S-H pickups so it should be intuitive on glance and operation. Master volume by itself (not important) series/parallel or "lead/rhythm" 4PDT switch. Will locate probably between the tone pots. Will use the Les Paul "rhythm/treble" label plate so it should be intuitive to operate 33 sound combinations. I think I got them all. Some are probaly very similar tonally, doesn't mean I have to use all 33 in a rotation (legend) BH (bridge humbucking) BS (bridge humbucking as single) MS (middle single coil) NB (neck humbucking) NS (neck humbucking as single) That should theoretically give me: BH BS BH+MS series BH+MS parallel BS+MS series BS+MS parallel MS MS+NB series MS+NB parallel MS+NS series MS+NS parallel NS NB BH+NH series BH+NH parallel BS+NS series BS+NS parallel BS+MS+NH series BS+MS+NH parallel BH+MS+NS series BH+MS+NS parallel BH+MS+NH series BH+MS+NH parallel BS+MS+NS series BS+MS+NS parallel BS-MS-NH parallel BS-MS-NH series BH-SM-NS parallel BH-SM-NS series BS-NH parallel BS-NH series BH-NS parallel BH-NS series My concerns:I want to make sure the tone pots are wired up properly and won't have issue running in series. In series, if I turn off the middle coil and the bridge/neck pickups are on...the middle coil is still active in the circuit, but the series/parallel switch introduces a jumper through the middle pickup on/off DPDT switch so the high resistance middle coil will appear as an open circuit with an effectively 0 ohm jumper path correct? Lastly, is it necessary to completely short one coil in a humbucker pickup if coil splitting? I was afraid that just disconnecting one lead one of the coils in a humbucker would result in the partially disconnected coil acting as an antenna which might pick up EMF/noise I have an older revision here. It has a single master tone pot and the coil splitting is done with a 4PDT rather than two independant switches (before I realized I could stealthily use a push/pull pot per humbucker and eliminate one toggle) However its similar enough. I did some highlighted traces in various operating modes to make it more easy for my brain to follow/check. Red areas are my concern www.impulselabs.org/Personal/Eric/Music/examples%20copy.gifWhat is the best way to route a good grounding scheme on something like this? I'm currently tring to transfer it from "schematic" to "physical wiring diagram". Any mistakes on the traces? It appears to be all functional I think, but fresh eyes and input would greatly increase my success rate. Thank you in advance folks!
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Post by ccoleman on Sept 25, 2006 6:36:11 GMT -5
the preferred way to avoid shorting coils is you let the ground side of the coil stay connected, while you detach the hot side from the circuit.. so it is "hanging off of ground" like JohnH does "down under.." LOL
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Post by UnklMickey on Sept 25, 2006 9:49:59 GMT -5
...In series, if I turn off the middle coil and the bridge/neck pickups are on...the middle coil is still active in the circuit, but the series/parallel switch introduces a jumper through the middle pickup on/off DPDT switch so the high resistance middle coil will appear as an open circuit with an effectively 0 ohm jumper path correct?
Lastly, is it necessary to completely short one coil in a humbucker pickup if coil splitting? I was afraid that just disconnecting one lead one of the coils in a humbucker would result in the partially disconnected coil acting as an antenna which might pick up EMF/noise... hi Guitarmole, welcome to GuitarNuts2. i'm quite busy this week. so, i might not have a chance to give the comprehensive answers that all your concerns deserve. i haven't looked your diagram over so, at this point i'm only responding to the text i quoted above. the terminology you used, describing turning off the middle pickup is confusing. "open" circuits are infinite resistance. "short" circuits are (theorhetically) 0 ohms. turning off pickups BEFORE a series/parallel switch is extremely tricky! in a parallel circuit, disconnecting the hot wire to a pickup is a good way to turn it off. (replacing the pickup with an open circuit) in a series circuit, the best way to turn it off, is to disconnect both wires to the pickup, AND replace it with a shunt. (direct connection). being able to have your wiring do the correct housekeeping, when switching between parallel and series modes, could get very complicated. when splitting a HB, if you simply move the ground connection from the - of the "bottom" coil to the series link, you won't have a coil hanging from ground, or a shunted coil. if that HB is on the "top" of 2HBs in series with each other, then you will have the unused coil hanging from the middle. (the junction of the 2 HBs). not as bad as hanging from hot, but if you have enough poles to disconnect it entirely, so much the better. unk
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guitarmole
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Post by guitarmole on Sept 25, 2006 20:35:54 GMT -5
Hello, Thanks for the warm welcome and replies! "turning off pickups BEFORE a series/parallel switch is extremely tricky!" I was having a hard time in an earlier revision I tried to cook up from scratch which is why I took a look around and found the Tonemonster2, which has all the hard work done for me It is actually located here: guitarnuts2.proboards45.com/index.cgi?board=schem&action=display&thread=1130243150I just rearranged the wiring diagram for the TM2 into a schematic so it makes more sense (to my brain) and removed the phase switch and the blending pots since I won't need them in my application, added dual tone pots for the humbuckers (did I do thatcorrectly?), and the coil tap. I believe I did transfer all the traces correctly. However there is a lot going on and I want to make sure it is correct rather than trying to chase it down after I wired it (incorrectly) into the guitar because that would be a nightmare and things usually look pretty ugly once I start unsoldering/soldering things. What I was trying to say (I am terrible at explaining sometimes...usually, most all the time!) was when in series mode in that circuit, (with both the neck and bridge pickup on), if you flip the switch that is supposed to "turn off" the middle pickup, it rather introduces a jumper that is parallel to the middle pickup leads. So...the brunt of the signal should travel through the jumper because the DC resistance of the coil is sufficiently high that it won't be active? (or just a smidge)? It looks like the tonemonster2 has been given the thumbs up so its either fine or I made a schematic booboo when transcribing it. As mentioned, I tried doing some "highlighted" circuit traces with various operating modes to make it easier for me to visualize so maybe that'll prove a useful tool. That 2nd link in my 1st post as mentioned is slightly outdated as it has only a master tone pot and the coil tap is shown as a 4PDT (and wrong polarity). The 1st image link is the near 100% current revision, (still wrong polarity, replace trimmer caps with regular ones). I need to find time to make new images but its time consuming to color little traces. I understand you're busy and I already greatly appreciate the time you've already taken to respond. I look forward to hearing more when the situation allows. Thank you unklmickey! Thanks to everyone else who has/is/will post something I appreciate the help!
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Post by JohnH on Sept 25, 2006 21:33:28 GMT -5
I will also check it out, but maybe not for a couple of days. I have a paternal interest in making sure ToneMonster2 derivatives work! John
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guitarmole
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Post by guitarmole on Sept 25, 2006 22:21:56 GMT -5
Thanks I wouldn't want to bring it shame by screwing it up!
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Post by Runewalker on Sept 25, 2006 22:31:32 GMT -5
As an aside when John and I were walking through some prototypes on this, my 2nd prototype went off the grid and used an HSH.
It just had one on-on-on for each -hum for Local Series/Single/Parallel. Pretty useful set-up. Some attention needed to go into which coil is made active on the -hums to maximize humcancelling combos, and with the limits of the on-on-on config you will always have at least one of the combos non-humcancelling if the mid S is RWRP.
I found it interesting, but in contrast to the 3 single pup SSS, it did not give significantly different sounds that could not be gotten with the reg TMII-SSS.
John has worked out a scheme that allows selecting which coil is active on the -Hums but it takes 2 minis, so that is 4 added to the 4 of the TM2 or 8 minis. A little busy.
All and all an intriguing little diversion, but in the end not so significantly novel to compel repeats. But fun to experiement with.
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Post by JohnH on Sept 26, 2006 2:12:05 GMT -5
Guitarmole – I had a go at checking your diagram on the train, so please excuse my sketchy mark-up. Generally, it looks fine, except where I’ve scribbled: people.smartchat.net.au/~l_jhewitt/circuits/HSH wiring3 copyJH.gif[/IMG] • Using the two-pole switches on the tone controls are good for the coil cuts, but best not to shunt the disconnected coil, just cut it out at both ends and leave it floating disconnected. So two wires deleted as shown. • Tone controls should be OK, but as you have noted, you can only use fixed caps. Note that in parallel mode, with both Hb’s selected, both tone controls will act on all pups selected. Not much you can do about that, but its no different to your average Strat. In series mode they will be independent • A couple of corrections to one of the on/off toggles • Since designing the TM2, I’ve reached the view that the 1nF treble bleed is too much. The best balance I think is to put a 180k or 220k in parallel with it (as marked), or as an alternative, reduce it to about 470pF • Couldn’t help adding a phase switch (blue) – which you can ignore. But you could have it on the volume control as push/pull, and bridge Hb out of phase with neck single, with overdrive, is a wild screaming sound! Now you have some careful thinking to do to figure out the coil phasing and hum-cancelling. You’ll want your basic selections to be all in phase, and with single coil modes, you can arrange for any two of NB, NM and MB to be hum-cancelling, depending on which coils you cut. The third combo will be hum-cancelling out-of-phase , if you chose to have that option. cheers John
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guitarmole
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Post by guitarmole on Sept 26, 2006 20:27:55 GMT -5
Hmm, I guess I lied (to myself too!) and it is actually an H-H-H since I picked up (locally) a Seymour Duncan "hot rail" for the single coil position from a friend. It's a 4-wire conductor humbucker, oops!
I suppose I should wire the humpup in series as well (itself, not with respect to the entire circuit) since it might be overwhelmed as a parallel wired pup whilst flanked by two series'ed coils. However, would this completely screw up my ability to try a single coil strat emulated sound since it is now S-H-S, not a true S-S-S?
The other two pickups I've settled on is a Duncan Jazz on the neck (I've heard raves about it being a versatile pickup) and a Duncan JB in the bridge (been around forever, seems very popular and covers a big spectrum of rock styles). I'll be pushing it through a B-52 AT-100 head. That might be useless information but it can't hurt including it.
I'll have to take a look into the phasing thing but I have heard that some out-of-phasing can sound nasally. Is there a link to some A/B samples floating about? WIld screaming sounds like good fun to me! I also attached the updated schematic below.
I think 99% of all my original questions are answered, thanks ;D. I am still curious on that middle coil still being live and tied into the circuit when the "on/off" switch for the middle coil is killed. It introduces basically a zero ohm path parallel to the coil (trace from bridge on/off to mid on/off) so the current would ignore the coil completely (or nearly so) correct?
Just to clarify (and to make sure I am not confusing phasing with hum cancelling or general chaos in my mind), hum cancelling happens with two coils wired together...but I was under the impression it has to be coils relatively close to one another (like a humbucking pickup). This part confused me:
"with single coil modes, you can arrange for any two of NB, NM and MB to be hum-cancelling, depending on which coils you cut."
Using a neck or bridge coil in single coil mode together, or either neck/bridge coil in single coil mode with the middle coil will still produce hum cancelling? I suppose it can't happen with the middle pickup combo since (as mentioned above), I didn't realize the coil I'm dropping into the center position is actually a sneaky humbucker.
Nuts! I just realized I put "NCK" where a "BRG" coil should be up top, and forgot to split the 4DPT coil tap switches into two different DPDT ones. Silly 10 hour work day wore me out *too lazy to change* Looks good with updated corrections? sans phase switch (for now), since I'm Googling up for sound bytes
(img removed, updated version in newest post)
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Post by UnklMickey on Sept 26, 2006 20:42:10 GMT -5
...since it might be overwhelmed as a parallel wired pup whilst flanked by two series'ed coils.... it's not as bad as you might think! the lower impedance of a parallel wired HB, will load down a series wired HB, when the 2 pickups are in parallel, making their contributions closer to equal, than you might have originally thought. when you put the 2 pickups in series, the series wired HB wins, big-time.
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Post by JohnH on Sept 27, 2006 15:47:18 GMT -5
guitarmole - I still think there is a fix to be made, top right on your diagram - see my earlier mark up J
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guitarmole
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Post by guitarmole on Sept 27, 2006 21:43:44 GMT -5
Should I use a star-ground type pattern and route all grounds to a single point to prevent potential ground loops? I'm not sure if this will make a huge difference on humbucking operation, but since I am going to run the ability for single coils, I minus well do it right since all the guts are coming out. I saw multiple sites/people mention wiring a cap from all component grounds to one lead of the capacitor, and the other to ground. This is to limit current in the event a shock does happen? I assume this is it's purpose...what reasonable accepted value works best minimizing conducting current in the unlikely event of a shock? (I am too lazy to dig up a book to calculate up time constants). Also the bridge pot...since it has no direct path to ground whilst in series operation, I should not tie the pot tab to the pot body, and I should ground only pot body correct? With the capacitors on one pot lead for tone/treble, would I ground the pot body to the tab on the pot, or to the lead after the capacitor (which is tied to that tab? (or does it matter?) Attached both new files (well, one revised one for the trace I forgot to delete). Added a wiring diagram, only the pickups are color coded (found the colors online). The rest of the wiring that doesn't come from the pickup are in random festive color rotations Sure beats trying to draw a wiring diagram in pencil, because gray traces crossing over one another was a MESS! Note on wiring diagram means the outermost coil on the bridge or neck will be active in either humbucker or split coil mode, to maximize tone difference. Not sure if 1/2" of difference (ie using the inner coil position rather than the outer coil sposition in single coil mode) makes a noticable tonal difference. ^^**Actually, are pickups directional on installation? If so, I'd just swap the leads and make the correct wiring color correction on either the bridge or neck coil so the outermost will be active regardless of single or humbucking operation.
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Post by JohnH on Sept 28, 2006 7:14:00 GMT -5
still one more wire needed I reckon - top right
Jphn
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guitarmole
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Post by guitarmole on Sept 28, 2006 19:17:15 GMT -5
Good grief I must be blind! Sorry 'bout that I can't believe I missed that (it was even right next to the other one!) Repasted it...if it still looks old, try hitting refresh (I replaced the old file with the new one using the identical file name...the cached version might still be on your computer)
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guitarmole
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Post by guitarmole on Oct 8, 2006 15:52:16 GMT -5
UpdateI've got it all wired up except for the neck pickup, which I am waiting on, so I will post some images when that is up. Found one mistake on my wiring diagram. Bridge p/p pot has red wire lead on the wrong tab...it's supposed to be on the wiper (doh). Fixed that on the actual wiring but I will have to update the images. Also the tone cap value of .01uF wasn't enough to do anything on 500k pots with humbuckers (I forgot most strat type ones use a 250k pot in which the .01uF would probably be perfect). Anyhow I used .033uF units which lets me vary the tone a reasonable amount. I would probably benefit stepping up to a .047uF capacitor to get more tone range but I never touch the tone knobs anyhow ;D Also used about ~.001uF of capacitance on the volume treble bleed. I forgot the exact value since I series'ed four caps to get an approximate value (my baggie of .001uF caps has dissapeared...). Tied in a 220kohm resistor in parallel to the caps and it sounds great and full bodied at lower volumes with the treble there. Without the caps or addition of the resistor, it sounds lacking at lower volumes. I did a before/after (by just gator clipping the passives on the pot leads) and it makes a bigger difference than I thought, especially with the parallel resistor after the caps are installed. Anyhow all the wiring seems to have gone without a hitch except I accidentally wired my volume pot backwards so it got louder when I wanted it turned down! Fixed that...found out star grounding really gobbles up your free room when you have a ton of signal ground wires running around in the cavity. Popped in a .33uF 600VDC cap to isolate the shield ground and the lid barely fits back on there! Used conductive copper shielding in all pickup and hollow cavities and soldered a shield ground wire to link them all together. This sucker doesn't hum when I split the (bridge) coil. Hopefully it'll work equally well when I pop in the neck pickup, as it is a gaping hole right now. Problems:When I turn all the pickups off, it isn't 100% off. I get a very diminished muted sound that sounds like dirtyish clean or low gain overdrive that is muffled (while I was using an original setting of higher gain/distortion). I just hooked the output jack to a DMM and set it on AC. I get no reading with the pickup switches off at all (reads baseline about 1.5-2.5mV). I'll get output if I turn either or both on (about 100-250mV depending on how hard I strum). Hmm Found something interesting afterwards. Since I dont have the neck pup in, the switch and neck pot shouldn't really do anything. If I have both the middle and bridge pickups off, and the neck off, I will hear the weird ghost sound which isn't supposed to be there. If I turn the neck pickup on while the other two are off, I will still hear it. Now if I turn the tone pot all the way down for the neck pickup while it is on and the other two are off, the guitar is dead 100% silent as it should be when the on/off switches are off... The neck tone pot also seems to affect the two installed pickups to some degree if the pickups are on and I am turning the pot. I musta screwed something up. I am not sure if it'll go away when I install the neck pup or there is an error on either the schematic or the wiring diagram...or I wired it wrong when soldering it up. Could you take a gander John? If the diagram and schematic are fine (with the additional minor corrections stated above), then I must have wired something stupidly or the installation of the neck pup will fix it. Are the tone pots correct in the drawing or should they actually be on the center tab? I Googled up some other random schematics and the caps are shown on the central tab. Eye candy:As far as pictures go, I shouldn't hold out, so here is what I have so far. Cavity is lined with foil tape. That includes the pickup cavities, the main cavity, and the smaller cavity for accessing the 1/4" phono jack. All of them are connected together with a soldered sield ground strap. .33uF 600VDC isolation. I couldn't physically fit an additional pot in the main cavity so I just -barely- got away fitting one in the cavity for the input jack. I only had full sized pots, doh! The wires are -really- packed in there. I now wish I obtained some rainbow ribbon cable for wiring instead of round multiconductor wire. Did most of the wiring beforehand if possible, I'm also not the best solderer around and I forgot to put heatshrink on a lot of wires before soldering them and saying "doh" to myself. Silicone fixed that I guess! Also left the leads long so I can manipulate the individual components if need be without tearing a connection, but it gobbled up my free space. Here is the rear shot of the layout of the cavities. No additional routing needed other than shaving the 4PDT seating area a bit so I could get a nut threaded on the top side. Top needed minimal slaughtering...I doubled up the tone pots as push/pulls so I wouldn't have to drill more holes or route out the rear cavity as much. I only had to drill two new holes, and drill 3 holes along the original 5-way switch slot. With everything installed, it looks pretty clean. I have these black rubber toggle switch covers I used on the series/parallel switch. I might fit them on the three on/off switches as well to cover up the 5-way switch slot gap. I could also sliver a piece of walnut in there to fill the gap as well. Its a shame those screw holes remain that once held the 5-way switch. I just put screws back in there so there won't be a big gaping hole. I considered a pickguard or mounting plate with black ABS plastic but it would be a shame covering up woodgrain. Doesn't look too bad I think! Only issue is the volume pot is the rearmost one rather than the front-most one. I would be basically impossible to wire up a push/pull tone pot in the rear and move a volume switch up front as the physical space required would need a good router (which I don't have) and I wanted minimal intrusion. The rearmost pot placed in the input jack cavity, luckily, is close enough to the other controls that it doesn't look wrong. I might remove the LP rhythm/treble pad as well as its a tad large and doesn't fit in perfectly. Replacing the licensed gold floyd rose thing with a real original black Floyd as well.
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Post by JohnH on Oct 8, 2006 21:54:52 GMT -5
Well done, nice work so far. tHe all off position shoudl be a short circuit from hot to ground, so if you measure resistance across the output jack, with all off, and volume at max, you should get a very low reading, say just a few ohms. Ill take another look at the schematic later.
BTW. I dont always use heat shrink, if there is a clear gap between parts, and I would not want any sticky silicone stuff in there!
John
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guitarmole
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Post by guitarmole on Oct 8, 2006 22:15:20 GMT -5
I think I found my problem.
On the neck switch for the schematic, the lower common goes to ground. On the wiring diagram, I put the currently selected pole on ground while there is nothing attached to the common. Will dig in there, fix it, and see if that solves the problem!
I'll modify this post if it does/doesn't. I really wish I used a more flexible and neater wiring scheme like rainbow ribbon cable. I didn't realize how stiff this stuff gets with such small bends.
Update: Hey hey hey!
Man, a sense of accomplishment is a really hard feeling to top! That was the bug and it does what it should now ;D
I'll have to do a final writeup listing everything and giving credit and thanks, and make the necessary corrections on the diagram and schematics...pup is coming from Canada to the US so it might take another week or so before I can get it worked in. Otherwise, this is one sweet setup.
I only wish I did a better wiring job. I used silicone on the input jack cavity because the full sized pot had tabs that were frighteningly close to the shield ground. I bent them as far away as possible but it also got close to the pot shell so I just put a dab between the two. I also globbed my silly daisychained capacitor as it had exposed leads and I didn't have any of the 3:1 or 4:1 high ratio heat shrink that would seal it off well enough. It sits right on top of the pot and I wouldn't want it to short.
As far as regrets...I wish I had room to use a p/p pot for the volume and use the DPDT as a phase switch. alas, there was no real room to safely run enough wires between the two cavities. I really wanted to try out that out-of-phase suggestion
Also wish I found a smaller isolation cap as that thing is monsterous. I'm going to see if I can find some smaller sized 1uF 200V PP caps and series 3 of them.
Also I regret having put the two tone knobs up front (they flank the series/parallel switch) as I am used to having the volume switch up front, and you play with the volume switch more than the tone knobs. Again...not enough clearance to put a p/p pot and leave room for wiring clearance in the input jack cavity and I am not gutsy enough to try routing the cavities any bigger.
However I am purchasing my friend's Carvin DC127 and that'll have to be my next project...possibly active goodies as it has a huge routed cavity and a pair of humbucking pickups. There will definitely be phased goodness on that!
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guitarmole
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Post by guitarmole on Oct 16, 2006 20:39:20 GMT -5
Just a quick update. My neck pickup is in the process of being tracked since it came from Canada and hasn't arrived in 15 days. The seller is in contact with the post office up there trying to find out what is going on (since international parcels require a declared value and get a tracking # thingo). Maybe it'll show up or I'll get a refund check and have to try scrounging for another replacement pickup. Anyhow it's been very annoying and depressing not having a neck pickup (just a big gaping copper-lined hole). I am very anxious to plop in all three pickups in there so I can flex it's tonal muscles and find my favorite combos. Anyhow I really got tired of having my volume pot in the rear and not being able to do volume swells. It was a dumb idea to begin with mainly out of convenience. I ended up cutting the leads to the pots and refitting the push/pull pot in the jack cavity instead of the volume pot . Barely...wires are smooshed together and you aren't going to be able to pull out individual pots to a comfortable length from the cavity without wire snipping... but oh well. Both tone pots are to the rear and the volume pot is up front. This also means I can put a push/pull pot up front since one used to be there...and that means I can add the phasing option! However I don't want to spend $10 shipping for a $5 switch so I will have to postpone it until I decide to rewire the Carvin with another pickup/switching scheme so it'll be more economical for me. That'll probably be in several months' time seeing as I get pretty bored in the fall/winter season after work when it's too dark out to do much. I will update the wiring diagram/schematic right now and edit this post when it's corrected (and delete them from the other to save everyone some loading time) Pickup combinations possible, 29 that I see. With a phase switch for one humbucker, it jumps to 49 combinations.
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