cam
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Post by cam on Oct 1, 2006 9:54:47 GMT -5
Hi Guys, I have a S-S-H configuration strat, and have perfromed the QTB mod which worked a treat. I'm now looking to add a bridge on and a coil splitting switch with push pull pots, and have a couple of questions. i.) What differnece does using the adjustable coil or stud coil of the humbucker in split mode make? What would you recommend? ii.) When using a bridge on switch, is it advisable to move the middle tone to the bridge with split ranges for the tone controls as described here: . I ask this as the article makes reference to "exotic" pickup selection. ie. does the bridge on switch make this redundant. Thanks very much in advance
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Post by JohnH on Oct 1, 2006 16:52:17 GMT -5
Hi Cam - welcome to GN2. What you propose sound all very sensible. For the split Hb, and bearing in mind your addition of a bridge-on switch, I would suggest that the most important factor is to decide which combination of Bridge-single / middle and Bridge-single / neck is most important to you. Then make sure that you select a bridge coil which will give you hum cancelling with that combo. Are you familiar with the idea of Reverse-wound-reverse polarity pickups? on the standard Strat arrangement, the middle is RWRP with respect to bridge and neck, giving hum cancelling BM and MN combos. When you select one of the bridge coils, it will be RWRP with one but not the other of the middle and neck.
Heres another factor: All things being equal, I would want the single bridge coil to be the adjustable one (so i can adjust it!), and placed furthest from the bridge, so it is slightly fuller in tone.
Thinking through all of those factors, you can have it all, but with the possible need that the neck and middle pups get swapped in position, depending on your Hb and which single-coil combo you optimise humcancelling for . That could give you the coils you want, with humcancelling that you want.
For the bridge tone - moving it makes sense, to give you best control of your most versatile pup. Maybe use a 500k pot however, since it is a humbucker.
All of that is a bit of a mouthful. But I'm inferring from your sensibly worded post that you will probably be able to make head and tail of it!
cheers
John
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cam
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Post by cam on Oct 2, 2006 2:11:59 GMT -5
Thanks for the quick reply John, that was very very helpful. I hadn't even considered the polarity. I'm more interested in the neck+bridge than neck+middle combo so i'd want to achive opposite magnetic polarity on the split coil in relation to the bridge. Theres still a few issues i'm not 100% on, i'm sorry for the barrage of beginner questions to come, everyone feel free to go down to the pub and ignore me if its too much trouble! I'm using a seymour duncan HB, and using this schematic as a reference for the coil splitting: www.seymourduncan.com/support/schematics/1h_2s_1v_2t_5w_split.htmlThe colour coding is: Green=beginning of adjustable coil (south) Red=finish of adjustable coil Black=beginning of stud coil(north) White=finish of stud coil To the best of my understanding, that wiring example sends the red+white wires to ground when switched on, shutting off one of the coils. i.)Would anyone be able to tell me which coil it is that is shut off with that example? I can't manage to figure it out or find out anywhere. ii.)To change the coil that is being shut off i would just have to switch the green and black wires right? iii.)Is there any way of determining the polarity of the existing single coil pups without resorting to trial and error? iv.)The adjustable coil is also the closest coil to the bridge, is there any reason why i could'nt physically flip it around to have the benefits of an adjustable coil and the added distance from the bridge for fuller tone? Thanks very much guys
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Post by JohnH on Oct 2, 2006 3:17:40 GMT -5
Cam - in coil cut mode, that diagram will short out the red-green coil, giving you the sound of the black-white coil, ie the stud coil. I don't know why they do that!
To use that diagram, but cutting to the other coil, you would swap green with white and black with red. This will switch the coil cut without changing phasing.
Theres no reason that I can see why you shouldn't rotate the whole pup 180 degrees to put the coils where you want them
BTW - on this forum, we have the view that it is best not to short coils out like that, due to the chance of creating an electrical circuit in the shunted coil, that sucks energy and tone (its at most very slight, but it is correct theory). We prefer to fully disconnect a coil if possible, which is easy to to with the same switch. I'm sure a diagram can be forthcoming.
Figuring out the RWRP polarities of pups needs a strong cup of coffee, or a large glass of Whiskey. Particularly as in this case, where you are trying to sort out single coils and Hb coils. Other than trial and error, the best way involves an analogue multimeter (ie with a needle, non-digital) Basically you place a screwdriver on a pole piece and lift it quickly. Then having connected the meter across the coil, on its most sensitive setting, you see which way the needle jumps. Do you have such a meter? if so, more explanation can be made.
cheers
John
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cam
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Post by cam on Oct 2, 2006 5:13:25 GMT -5
Thanks again John, i see why you have god status here!
Unfortunately i only have a digital multimeter handy, so it looks like i'm stuck with trial and error.
So to achieve coil splitting leaving me with the adjustable coil, and disconnecting, not shorting, the stud coil, would i:
-wire the red (finish of adjustable coil) to the pickup selector -white (finish of stud coil) directly to my star ground -the green (begining of adjustable coil) and black (beginning of stud coil) to the switch such that operating the switch connects and diconnects these wires from one another?
Thanks a heap for your help
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Post by ChrisK on Oct 2, 2006 9:23:52 GMT -5
::)Determining the absolute magnetic polarity of a magnet requires a reference such as the one sold by StewMac: www.stewmac.com/shop/Electronics,_pickups/Tools:_Polarity_tester/Magnet_Polarity_Tester.html Determining the relative magnetic polarity of a magnet only requires a little cleverness. First, and foremost, the coil winding direction DOES NOT MATTER if the coil's wires can be switched. In some cases, such as a pickup with a shield and center conductor, they cannot easily be switched. Second, and also foremost, individual pickup magnetic polarity RULES. If two pickups (either a single coil or one side of a side-by-side humbucker) attract when their top-side magnetic poles are placed together, they are RP (as in Reverse magnetic Polarity). In this case, you will have a RW (as you select the individual coil polarity by lead wire swapping for different winding directions for each coil) RP hum-canceling arrangement. If the combination sounds full and good, good. If the combination sounds weak and thin, one of the coils will need its lead connections to the switch (or whatever) swapped. Now, if you want the thinner sound (as in Series Out of Phase [SOoP], you want to use pickups/sections that have the same magnetic polarity (they repel each other), and still use coil connections for different winding directions for each coil. This will still be hum-canceling. That being said, the slug coils on a side-by-side humbucker have a more warmer louder sound (although it will never sound just like a single coil due to the wider/tighter focused magnetic sensing window inherent in its magnetic structure) due to the most steel in the coil center (more inductance). The screw coil will have a brighter softer sound due to the lesser steel (thinner screws) in the coil (less inductance). Note that while maintaining the use of the same screw size (diameter and thread pitch), one can further "tune" the response of the screw coil thru the use of differing screw types (head structure) and materials (stainless steel etc) and screw length. Regarding: I (and many other guitar builders) tend to prefer that the screw coil be toward the bridge on the bridge humbucker since the harmonic content of a vibrating string is richest there. For a neck pickup, it matters less, but some have mounted the screw coil also toward the bridge since a significant harmonic null occurs at the 24th fret location (where most pickups are located on a 22 fret guitar) FOR OPEN STRINGS ONLY. If a string is fretted at the second fret, the null shifts ratio-metrically. "Fuller in tone" means different things to different folk. The coil furthest from the bridge will have a louder output due to the wider string vibration there, but be lesser in harmonic content due to farther distance from the bridge. The coil closest to the bridge will have a softer output due to the narrower string vibration there, but be heightened in harmonic content due to closer distance to the bridge. IMHO, this all is.
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Post by UnklMickey on Oct 2, 2006 10:58:43 GMT -5
Thanks again John, i see why you have god status here!... hi Cam, Akshully, "God status" around here, is accomplished by post count. although in John's case, we had a similar admiration for his wisdom, kind words, and generousity, long before such status was bestowed upon him. the alternate stack you described: - red = hot
- green/black = series link
- white = "HB ground"
is valid, and i often use it for ONE of 2HBs when they are to be used together. that way the 2 SCs are now one north, and one south. ie, hum-canceling when in-phase.* it isn't necessary to break the series link, unless you want to put the HB in (local) parallel. if you only need to have 2 choices: full HB or single coil, i find the simplest, cleanest way is to connect: (alternate stack colors) - the POLE of the switch to ground.
- white to one throw of the switch, for full HB
- green/black to the other throw, for single (screw) coil.
since this only requires a single pole, a DPDT push-pull could split both HBs at the same time, if you wanted to do it that way. the way you suggested, will also work, if you connect: - white to ground
- green to the pole of the switch
- black to one throw, for full HB
- ground to the other pole, for single (screw) coil.
...IMHO, this all is. as usual Chris, a very comprehensive post. but all? sounds too much like "ultimate" or "the last word", to me. fine details ARE. cheers, unk * a truly devious mind, will find a way to make a pair of HBs, when both split to SCs, hum-canceling, when they are in-phase OR Out-of-Phase. with no additional switch fumbling
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cam
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Post by cam on Oct 2, 2006 11:50:21 GMT -5
Thanks for weighing in guys, theres some good information there once i can get my head around it.
I'm looking to keep it (relatively) simple for now, so its just the full HB or 1 single coil i need. So, to achieve that i'd be looking at:
-red to the pickup switch -white to one throw of the switch -green and black to the other and the pole to ground for the adjustable coil
-white to the pickup switch -red to one throw of the switch -green\black to the other and the pole to ground for the stud coil
I think this is correct according to my (probably erroneous) interpretation of the above, however, doesn't this contradict the earlier advice about disconnecting, not shorting out the unwanted coil? As far as i can tell the green and black wires are being shorted to ground to disable the coil.
On the topic of polarity, wouldn't reversing the leads on one of the HB coils effectively put the HB out of phase with itself in normal operation? To achieve the hum cancelling combinations i want i would have to vary the coil being used when split, or swap the neck and middle pickups right?
Finally, a couple of questions about pickup combinations.
In normal operation of the humbucker combined with the middle single coil, what is going on? The humbucker has no net polarity right? How does this interact with the polarised single coil?
When using a bridge on switch and splitting the HB, if i have it sset up to be hum cancelling in the bridge+neck and neck+middle , will that result in out of phase mid+bridge and bridge+mid+neck positions?
Sorry about the length of the post, it seems the more i know the more i realise i don't know.
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Post by UnklMickey on Oct 2, 2006 12:53:40 GMT -5
hi Cam, you had the firs part right, but..... in the second wiring you stated: -white to the pickup switch -red to one throw of the switch -green\black to the other and the pole to ground for the stud coilthis should be:-black to the pickup switch -red/white to one throw of the switch -white to the other and the pole to ground for the stud coil all the wiring we have discussed so far is for Seymour Duncan colors. Dimarzio colors ARE different.a HB cancels the hum of it's 2 coils. when you add a SC to this, you will get less hum than the single alone, but more than the HB alone.the HB will load the SC a litlle reducing it's output a little, and reducing it's hum a little. the SC will load the HB a lot, reducing it's normally strong output, so that the HB's contribution will be a little greater than the SC. since the hum for the HB was nearly zero to begin with, it is still nearly zero. the above (corrected) wiring will not shunt coils. but i think some drawings will make this easier to see. the pair of HBs on the left are the way i normally do my splits. the far left gives the slug coil, the near left gives the screw coil. also shown, on the right are a pair, that i think you might have had in mind. they also work, but are not as handy for those with devious (*) minds. cheers, unk
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Post by ChrisK on Oct 2, 2006 18:25:02 GMT -5
Sorry, I spoke out of pretext context.
This all (above) is (what I think) IMHO.
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Post by JohnH on Oct 2, 2006 18:35:42 GMT -5
Cam - I think you have all the info there now. Unk has drawn the preferred ways of splitting an Hb. from what Chris has said, to find the correct coil pair between a single and one of the Hb coils, you would be looking for the Hb coil with poles which are most attracted to those of the Sc, when placed top-face to top-face. The preferred position of the screw coil and split coil is your choice.
When you have it wired up, a careful listen to each setting, for thin out-of-phase sounds, will allow a correction to be made to phasing, if required.
John
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Post by UnklMickey on Oct 2, 2006 18:37:56 GMT -5
...Sorry, I spoke out of pretext context.... Chris, you never cease to amaze (and amuse) me with these gems. no one turns a phrase quite like you.
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cam
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Post by cam on Oct 2, 2006 20:22:34 GMT -5
Thanks for all the responses guys, i appreciate your taking time to help me out.
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