altanon
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Post by altanon on Jan 19, 2007 9:05:00 GMT -5
Hi everyone, I'm a first time poster and complete wiring noob who finds it fascinating and is trying to figure it all out. I picked up a heinously abused Ibanez RG760 a couple of years ago and, upon a recommendation, I got Seymour Duncans, (TB4 JB for the bridge, SSL-7 Quarter Pound staggered & tapped for the middle and SHR-1 Hot Rails for the neck.) I also replaced the original volume pot with a DiMarzio 500K Push/Pull, and the original tone pot with an EMG SPC. I guess what I'd like to end up with is something like this: guitarnuts2.proboards45.com/index.cgi?board=schem&action=display&thread=1162598765, but for the pickups, EMG SPC and push/pull pot that I have. I haven't bought any of the switches yet, nor the shielding stuff or wire, caps, etc.) I rather like the double wafer 5-way, as that would drop right in where my single 5-way is, and I had planned on using the push/pull pot for tapping the Quarter Pound, but I think I would also need some mini toggles to achieve all the different positions, yes? I appreciate the help.
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Post by gfxbss on Jan 19, 2007 11:49:41 GMT -5
just to give you a heads up, you cant do coil taps or phase switches w/ EMGs. they only use 2 wire HBs and you would need 4 wire. w/ EMGs being the sealed bricks that they are, you cant mod them to 4 wire...
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altanon
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Post by altanon on Jan 19, 2007 16:36:32 GMT -5
gfxbss said:...just to give you a heads up, you cant do coil taps or phase switches w/ EMGs... Uh, the EMG SPC isn't a pickup; it replaces the tone control. and gfxbss said:...they only use 2 wire HBs and you would need 4 wire. w/ EMGs being the sealed bricks that they are, you cant mod them to 4 wire... The TB4 JB has five wires, (Black, White, Red, Green and Uncoated,) the SSL-7 Quarter Pound staggered & tapped has three wires, (Black, White and Red,) and the SHR-1 Hot Rails also has five wires, (Black, White, Red, Green and Uncoated.) The EMG SPC, (Stratocaster Presence Control,) has five wires, (Two Blacks, White, Red and Green,) as well as having a replacement input jack. The DiMarzio 500K Push/Pull pot has three lugs for the pot itself, and six lugs for the push/pull switch. Sorry if I was unclear before... ;D
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Post by gfxbss on Jan 19, 2007 16:40:22 GMT -5
ahh, thanks for the heads up. its fine, i should have done my research before replying. i have a couple of guitars w/ EMG slects in them in i hate them because i cant do any fun mods to them.
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altanon
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Post by altanon on Jan 20, 2007 6:57:14 GMT -5
No prob...
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Post by dunkelfalke on Jan 20, 2007 9:11:59 GMT -5
Uh, the EMG SPC isn't a pickup; it replaces the tone control. not quite. it is an additional active eq control which is placed between the output jack and the all the other controls.
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altanon
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Post by altanon on Jan 20, 2007 9:58:30 GMT -5
Uh, the EMG SPC isn't a pickup; it replaces the tone control. not quite. it is an additional active eq control which is placed between the output jack and the all the other controls. You are quite correct; it is an active, (i.e. battery powered,) eq boost control. You are also correct that it comes after everything else, just before the output jack, (which was included with the SPC.) In my case, I figure the old tone pot would be somewhat redundant, so I was going to replace it with the SPC. These are some drawings I got from someone on another board: The first is the main wiring diagram, while the remaining show options for the push/pull pot. This scheme provides a number of positions, but I believe there are more options available, plus they don't show how to incorporate the SPC. That's why I turned to the experts here on this board! ;D
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Post by borsanova on Jan 20, 2007 10:55:26 GMT -5
First of all thanks for considering my Les Paul Jimmy Page design. The biggest difference with your guitar is that yours has only 2 pots (volume and tone). I understand that you got one push/pull, so you'd need at least three more switches to realize all the 22 principal sounds of my Les Paul. Still then, without a second tone pot, you wouldn't be able to realize the broadbucker sound, - unless you add maybe another switch to throw in the cap (and that would make four switches!). I've drawn a schematic to show how this can be done on a guitar with just one tone control. You find it here: guitarnuts2.proboards45.com/index.cgi?board=wiring&action=display&thread=1166627614Those three switches realize dual sound, broadbucker and serial (Broadbucker works only in combination with serial). If you don't want to overload your guitar with switches, you can try to reduce the options. Do you really need coil tap or out-of-phase? Do you need super distortion and broadbucker? It depends on your pickups and your musical taste, too. Do you prefer thinner or fatter sounds? Just ask yourself and make your choice. On the other hand it is nice to have all the possibilities available. Personally I use them all from the thinnest to the fattest. And certainly it may also be a cute way to impress your bandfellows and fans by sporting a whole battery of shiny new toggle switches ;D Just take care to place them in a rational order (maybe from thin to hot), so you won't get lost in your switchings
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altanon
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Post by altanon on Jan 20, 2007 17:49:37 GMT -5
Hi everyone, I'm a first time poster and complete wiring noob... I'm sorry but, as I said, I'm brand new at wiring and I need something really simple like the drawings I posted. A couple of other differences are that my guitar has three pickups rather than two, and that it has a five-way selector. As I said, I'd like to replace the existing five-way switch with one of those 4-Pole, Double Wafer, 5-Way Super Switches, plus some mini toggles, if needed. I really must stress, I need the "Wiring For Dummies" version. Thanks again.
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Post by borsanova on Jan 21, 2007 5:56:17 GMT -5
With three pickups you have even more possibilities and that's why we can't start posting solutions without some serious choices from your side:
How many extra switches (besides the 5-way) can you install? Do you prefer heavier (full distortion) or thinner (out-of-phase) sounds or are you willing to have them both? Do you need mellow jazz sounds (single coil on the neck) or would you like broadbucker sounds for screaming heavy metal? Do you want sharp surf sounds (out-of-phase bridge-middle) or do you prefer more traditional twangy out-of-phase sounds (neck-bridge)?
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altanon
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Post by altanon on Jan 21, 2007 8:08:37 GMT -5
Hi borsanova,
Thanks for your reply.
You said: With three pickups you have even more possibilities and that's why we can't start posting solutions without some serious choices from your side:
Ah, now I see. Yeah, I gave up even trying to figure out all the different combinations!
You asked: How many extra switches (besides the 5-way) can you install?
As many as I have to. I don't even have to go with the five-way switches, (either the regular or the four-pole double wafer.) I could go with five or six mini-toggles, if that would provide more flexibility.
You asked: Do you prefer heavier (full distortion) or thinner (out-of-phase) sounds or are you willing to have them both?
Both.
You asked: Do you need mellow jazz sounds (single coil on the neck) or would you like broadbucker sounds for screaming heavy metal?
I'd like to have the ability to do both.
You asked: Do you want sharp surf sounds (out-of-phase bridge-middle) or do you prefer more traditional twangy out-of-phase sounds (neck-bridge)?
Oddly enough, I was never a big Surf player and I do prefer the twangy, almost chorus-y out-of-phase neck-bridge sound.
The bottom line is that I play pretty much anything and everything. Lately, I've been playing a lot of Jackyl, Montrose and Metallica, but not long ago I was playing a lot of John Lee Hooker, and next month it may be Steeleye Span and Yes, or Waylon Jennings, or some Rockabilly. No one knows, least of all me!
I do know that I'm not going to be able to get every tone or sound from this one guitar, (Basically, it's a shredder's guitar, trust me, trying to play classical stuff on this thing is no joke!) but that is my quest.
Given my limited funding, (the scourge of all poor, struggling musicians,) I had a choice: buy more guitars, or upgrade this one and buy amps, effect processors, wireless system, (ask me how much I love my Sennheiser ew372G2!) etc. Obviously, I went the upgrade route.
Sorry to ramble on, but I guess what I'm trying to say is, I'd like to have a nice clean that I could use for country, folk, classical, etc. Then I'd like a bit of bluesy crunch that you can drive on into the forbidden zone!
Ultimately, I'm going to be running a W/D/W rig with my TSL100 as the "dry," and an Egnater M4 preamp, (haven't yet decided on the effects processor, but leaning toward the G-System, or a power amp, probably be a VHT 2/50/2 or 2150,) for the stereo "wet."
I believe, that with the guitar I have, the pickups I selected, the variety of tones you are helping me get, and the kit I'm going to have, that I will be able to nail 90% of the stuff I play! (Okay, maybe only 75%, but 75% would be great!)
Thanks again for your help! ;D
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Post by borsanova on Jan 21, 2007 12:30:50 GMT -5
This is a HSH configuration, right? Okay here is some idea on where to be headed. This is how I would do: Keep your original 5-way switch and place four or five toggle switches in a row or in two pairs one above the other. In the lower position place two three-position toggle switches to get serial and parallel humbucker and single coil for each your neck and bridge pickup. In the upper position on the neck side place a three position neck out-of-phase switch with a tone bypass cap for the third position (serves for broadbucker). In the upper position on the bridge side place another 3-position switch as a bridge-on switch, with parallel and serial option. Here's a diagram of the switches and what the single positions should do: bridge on parallel | neck out of phase | bridge off | neck in phase | bridge on in series | neck tone cap bypass | - | - | bridge SC | neck SC | bridge dual sound | neck dual sound | bridge HB | neck HB |
In combination with your 5-way switch this should give you at least 30 different combos of all kinds. I guess that others might have different suggestions, so take some time to reflect on your definitive configuration. In the meantime you can study how to achieve each of the above goals. You'll find lots of examples on this board. Then when you have defined your project, we can study possible wirings.
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Post by borsanova on Jan 22, 2007 19:40:56 GMT -5
I'm doing a little count to understand how many sounds you can get with the configuration I proposed:
You got 5 stock sounds,
5
but now each of your outer pickups has two more sounds.
5+4=9
These can also be combined with the middle pickup in parallel.
9+4=13
With the neck-middle out of phase combo you get 3 more.
13+3=16
Now we move to the bridge-on switch putting the bridge pickup in parallel. Since both pickups have three different modes, this gives us a number of bridge-neck combos (3x3): nine phase sounds and nine out-of-phase sounds.
16+18=34
The same can be done adding the middle pickup in parallel for 18 more sounds.
34+18=52
Now we put the bridge pickup in series mode and this gives us 36 (18+18) additional sounds.
52+36=88
Last but not least we can throw in the broadbucker cap for the neck pickup. In the proposed project this works only with the neck in phase and soundwise it makes real sense only in series mode. So if my calculation is right we get only 18 sounds in broadbucker mode, but this brings us to
88+18=106
Finally I forgot that the neck pickup in single coil mode will be playable on each coil due to the phase switch, thus adding up to a total of
106+1=107
107 different sounds!
Huge! A real Tone Monster. Anybody wants to build it?
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altanon
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Post by altanon on Jan 23, 2007 9:44:52 GMT -5
Sounds great to me! ;D I attacked trying to figure out the possible combinations mathematically. Problem is, I haven't done any high-end math for over 15 years! I was initially looking to use five DPDT switches, so I thought it solvable exponentially. My math has devolved to the point that I couldn't even set-up the equation. Uh, would it be 3 5, or would it be 5 3? When that didn't work, I thought of doing a chart depicting the different switch positions. I came up with this: I was real busy patting myself on the back when I realized that I hadn't even scratched the surface. So, I came up with this: And I don't think this even covers them all! That was just with mini-toggles; what if I throw a five-way into the mix? Then there's the push/pull pot and the EMG SPC to consider. That's when I realized I was in way over my head, and gained a whole new respect for folks who can figure this stuff out! Throw me at a stage full of equipment, and I'll hook you up, but this surpasses me. That's why what borsanova said about making choices makes sense. Some of the positions would be redundant, some probably wouldn't deliver a very good sound and as someone told me: You cannot have both Parallel AND Phase switching on the same pickup as, due to the physical restrictions of the switches, if you reverse the phase of an already "paralleled" humbucker you will not hear a sweet thing come out of it whatsoever. (You'll have sent both 'hots' to ground, basically!)I guess I was hoping to see a couple of different ideas from the knowledgeable folks on this forum. Then I would have some options to try to choose between. Therefore, I throw myself on the mercy of the group, and will consider all suggestions! Thanks again!
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Post by sumgai on Jan 23, 2007 13:21:33 GMT -5
al, It's probably time to give you the Official to the forums! Borsa has been helping you, and there's no problem with that, he's got some good designs under his belt. And it doesn't hurt that his English is probably better than mine. But for the record, two things need to be cleared up for you. One, the proper equation for deriving the total number of possible pickup combinations is the number of control positions raised to the number of controls. Hence, 3 5 is the number you're looking for.* Yes, that renders all of the redundancies too, so it's not really useful, but it does explain why your chart was looking pretty grim! Two, Oh? And just where did you send the remaining coil wires, to a party somewhere in Soho? They have to be controlled too, there's no getting around that, so if you switch a hot to ground (phase reversal), then you have to make the pup's negative go to the output at the same time. Take note, if a switch limits you in some fashion, then you're limiting yourself - there's always a different switch available that will do the job! (Financial limits notwithstanding, of course. ) And just because the pup is in local parallel, that doesn't mean you can't reverse phase on one of the coils, far from it. Take a gander at any of the several circuits submitted by JohnH in the Schematics sub-forum. For that matter, unklmickey and ChrisK have both dealt with this topic in their contributions, in that same forum. As for the rest, I'm not the one to seek out when dealing with HB combinations..... I have enough troubles just trying to keep 3 single coils squared away on my own rig! ;D Good luck! sumgai * For control setup with differing possibilities (ex. one 5-way plus one DPDT push-pull), you multiply together the total number of positions for each switch. The example would be 5 x 2, giving us 10 possible combos. A 5-way and two DPDT switchs would give us 20 possible combos. The most complex scenario can be broken down to this simple formula.
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