erik
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Post by erik on Jul 3, 2007 10:56:58 GMT -5
Hi folks, I'm going to need some help here, so I'm hoping some of you could give me some of it. What I've got right now: a modified strat. I never used anything that involved the middle pickup so I replaced the 5-way lever by a 3-way, ripped out the middle pickup. So I my current wiring gives the following switching: pos. 1: neck pickup with the first tonepot pos. 2: neck and bridge pickups with both tonepots working as master tone pos. 3: bridge pickup with second tonepot Although I'd rather had that in the middle position, each pickup had its own dedicated tonepot, I'm satisfied how this works. Now, what I'm here for is that I'd like a 4th sound from my Strat, both pickups wired in series. What exactly it will do to the sound I can't tell - I'm guessing the sound of both pickups in parallel but thicker and hotter, but we'll see - but I'm rather wondering how exactly I can achieve this. Since I find that a 3-way lever has more than enough positions, I'd like to use a push pull switch on one of the tonepots. So, I think I'm going to need a switch that switches between the series wiring and the regular switching. So basically I need to know which kind of push pull I would need, how to wire it and which things I need to consider to make sure things won't leak or anything. about a possible tone control on a possible series wiring: I'll be able to figure out how to do that, but first I'd want to decide if I even need a tone control over the series wiring. Any help would really be appreciated
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Post by ChrisK on Jul 3, 2007 11:50:03 GMT -5
Welcome a'board! Well, I'm sure that we'll give you "some of it", hopefully it will be what you actually wanted. ;D ?Huh? You currently have: and you would like to add: pos. 4. neck and bridge pickups in series with some sort of tone pot control. You are correct sir! I presume that you mean "since the 3-way lever doesn't have enough positions". This is actually easy to do with the magical Tele 4 position 2 pole lever switch if you're willing to live with a hanging coil (a pickup coil with one lead connected to the circuit output and the other not connected to anything). It's also easy to do with a DPDT push pull tone pot and the 3-way lever switch that you currently have. This won't result in a hanging coil. (And the other DPDT push pull tone pot could reverse the electrical phase of one pickup for some neat series Out of Phase sounds.) In either case, I would wire each tone control directly across each pickup. In series, each tone control would affect just one pickup directly (but both in a shunting/enhancing way). You could also possibly have a series mode tone control and a parallel mode tone control, but I'd have to think a bit on this. ?Leak?
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erik
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Post by erik on Jul 3, 2007 13:42:33 GMT -5
Well thanks for the replies I haven't got much time right now cuz I want to continue playing that guitar in a minute. ChrisK, right now in position 1 I've got one tonepot, in 3 I've got the other one, and in position 2/middle position they both affect the guitar's tone, in the same way. I would have prefered having them more like on my Les Paul - both tonepots affect the tone in the middle position but you can clearly hear that they don't work as master tone, they just control the specific pickup they should control. But it doesn't matter, it's okay the way it is. The other thing: I don't like it when switches offer too many options. One middle position is enough for me, so I don't want a 4-way. Otherwise I need to focus on switching it while I just want to play the guitar edit: By leak I meant that signal from, let's say, the series wiring would come through even when I'm using any of the positions I've got now. So you're saying I should wire the tone's directly to each pickup? I thought I couldn't do that but now I realize that was a bit silly of me. Cuz now that I think of it, I have them wired directly to the pickups, only that connection takes place on the 3-way switch. So.. now I think the only thing I still need to know is how exactly to wire the push pull.
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Post by sumgai on Jul 3, 2007 19:57:09 GMT -5
Well thanks for the replies You're welcome. On an LP, there are two volume pots, and they act to isolate the pickups from each other, which would include the tone pots wired across them. With a single master volume, as you currently have on your Strat, your two tone controls are in parallel with each other (with both pups selected), there's no isolation between them at all. And operating this second switch differs from operating just one switch in what manner, may I ask? More to the point, if you have to take the time to flick the main pup selector from Bridge to Both, then have to hit the second switch to go from one choice to the other, there will be a net loss in both time and effort. In short, you'll be focusing on two switches instead of one, and that's just gotta cut into your playing, or so it seems to me, anyways. HTH sumgai
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Post by ChrisK on Jul 3, 2007 21:44:24 GMT -5
But, the coil is now shorted.
The advantage of the 3-way lever and the push pull pot is that you have a two voice guitar. One is the 3-way selector and the other is the overriding series connection from the push pull pot.
I'm going to see if there's any easy way to have a parallel mode tone control and a series mode tone control.
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erik
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Post by erik on Jul 4, 2007 3:58:14 GMT -5
That would be one tone wired to the 3-way switch and one somewhere in the circuit of the series wiring.
But I like the tone control per pickup idea, especially if that works in any mode or position. If I can't have them per pickup or per mode, I'll probably wire one of them to the 3-way and one to the volume, so that I have a master and one dedicated to the regular switching mode.
I drew a diagram yesterday (or rather somewhere in the middle of the night), but does it matter whether I wire the bridge's lead to the neck's ground and then the neck's lead to the volume control, or the other way around (neck's lead to bridge's ground, then bridge's lead to volume)? I don't think there would be any difference, right?
okay, given that a push pull switch's connections look like this:
1 4 2 5 3 6
I should: - connect the bridge lead and the neck ground to 1 and 2 (wouldn't matter which to which); - connect the neck lead to 4 and the volume to 5; - connect the wire that comes from the 3-way on 6.
This way, in 'pull' 1-2 puts the two pickups in series and 4-5 makes sure that that signal goes to the master volume. Also in 'pull' the regular mode would be bypassed. Then in 'push' the pickups are not connected in series, and the signal from the neck lead doesn't go straight to the volume. In push mode, however, the 5-6 connection allows the regular signal from the 3-way switch to go to the master volume.
and please, please correct me if I'm wrong on anything.
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erik
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Post by erik on Jul 4, 2007 8:40:39 GMT -5
More to the point, if you have to take the time to flick the main pup selector from Bridge to Both, then have to hit the second switch to go from one choice to the other, there will be a net loss in both time and effort. In short, you'll be focusing on two switches instead of one, and that's just gotta cut into your playing, or so it seems to me, anyways. HTH sumgai The way I see it, it wouldn't matter in which position the 3-way selector is when using the series connection. The more position each switch has, the more accuracy it'll take to put it in the right position. Now I can of course put the switch in bridge or neck position with one big sweep of the right hand. The middle position needs slightly more accuracy, but it'll do because there's only one middle position. I imagine a push pull is very easy to operate because it only has two positions. Plus, if I don't like the series connection, it won't annoy me either. But first I should get myself that push pull.
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Post by sumgai on Jul 5, 2007 3:37:27 GMT -5
erik, Ah, that explains it - what you just described is an over-ride switch. Sometimes that is handy, I'll agree. Carry on, mate! sumgai
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erik
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Post by erik on Jul 5, 2007 8:31:43 GMT -5
Woopsie. When I connect the neck's lead to the bridge's ground, the sound out of the guitar goes dead. At least in positions 1 and 2. In 3 I still get the regular sound of the bridge pickup only. I don't have the pushpull, nor the soldering stuff (I used to use my friend's, but he's on vacation), so I only connected those two wires - didn't disconnect anything. So unless someone can secure me that disconnecting the 3-way lever off the master volume when switched to series mode will solve this problem (probably shorted the neck pickup or something?), maybe I should just buy myself a 4-way lever after all..
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Post by sumgai on Jul 5, 2007 12:24:48 GMT -5
erik, You just got too anxious, that's all. Your request can be done, rest assured. Let's take a look at what a regular DPDT switch can do for us, eh? And Presto! You're off to the races. If you have any trouble following the diagram's logic, just ask. Almost forgot........ you're correct, the pickup position labels are arbitrary - you can reverse the Neck and Bridge names above with no problems at all. HTH sumgai
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erik
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Post by erik on Jul 5, 2007 12:58:17 GMT -5
That's seems quite right indeed. Although, it seems like the neck's + wire is now directly connected to the master volume. But in case of the 3rd (bridge) position, only the bridge pickup would give signal because the neck's shorted?
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erik
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Post by erik on Jul 5, 2007 14:17:44 GMT -5
Okay I've drawn myself a diagram of how to wire things. It's gonna be complicated because I didn't expect I'd need to rewire the 3-way. But that's cool.
Seems to me like I can wire tone1 anywhere between the neck's + and master volume. Tone2 might be best placed between the bridge's + and the DPDT, so that it works in all positions that involve that pickup. That would be neat, eventhough it might affect the tone of the bridge pickup even when both tone controls are fully open?
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Post by sumgai on Jul 5, 2007 17:46:45 GMT -5
erik, Yes, the Neck + has to go to the high (hot) side of the volume control, the - side must be switchable. We could solve that with a 4PDT switch, but the amount of re-wiring will still be larger than just adding a couple of wires. Shorting the Neck pup in this case reduces much of the pup's tendency to act as an antenna for stray hum and/or buzz. It's not a perfect solution, but it's better than adding to the cost and complexity of the aforementioned 4PDT switch. It doesn't make any difference where each pup lead is going, simply connect the tone pots/caps across the two pickups, + to - on each one. Each control will work in its own pup, but in the two combo positions, they will both have an effect. Again, if you don't mind more complexity, a 4PDT switch can be used to break them apart so that only or the other control is effective in a given position. HTH sumgai
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erik
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Post by erik on Jul 5, 2007 18:21:57 GMT -5
But, does shorting the neck result in absolutely no signal from it going to the output - so just the bridge pickup giving sound and neck being dead quiet when a string or screwdriver touches it? by the way, I really appreciate your help
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Post by ChrisK on Jul 5, 2007 20:19:55 GMT -5
For what it's worth, here's a wiring diagram that keeps the 3-way working as it was, but when the push pull pot is pulled out, both pickups are in series regardless of the position of the 3-way (which can be left in whatever position is desired). In essence, a two-voice guitar, standard and over-riding series. Each tone control is wired directly across its respective pickup. In bridge neck parallel, both of them are active. This will have greater effect in parallel since there is now a capacitor for each pickup to allow the following series mode. (In a traditional Strat, both tone pots share the same capacitor, so while the tone cut effect is a function of both pots in parallel, the cutoff frequency is the same whether one or two tone pots are engaged.) In this design, either tone pot in the both on mode will have an effect, as both are turned down, the cutoff frequency will be lower since twice the capacitance will be in-circuit. In series, each one shunts its respective pickup, reducing the high frequency components of said pickup while providing a high-pass path to common and output for the high frequency components of the other pickup. Turning one tone control toward "0" actually can brighten the overall tone. In essence, if one tone pot is turned down, one gets (N+Cap)*B or (B+Cap)*N. Hope it helps.
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Post by sumgai on Jul 6, 2007 3:56:14 GMT -5
Chris, I think I see a rough spot here. You show the Bridge tone control with the pup's + lead going to the wiper, and the bottom lug going to ground (effectively the Bridge - lead) through the cap. Fine so far, but....... For the Neck pup, you show it's two leads going to the outer terminals of the tone pot, with the cap on the wiper and the (nominal) + lead. To me, that looks like the pot's full value is in parallel with the Neck pup at all times..... am I wrong here? And since the cap is in parallel with that resistance, via the wiper, then the tone response is bound to be a wee bit different than expected, no? Or were you intending to tell erik that he needs to cut the trace inside of the pot, leaving the terminal as nothing more than a connecting lug? ;D sumgai
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erik
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Post by erik on Jul 6, 2007 4:56:12 GMT -5
That diagram scares me a bit because it looks like it shows exactly what I did yesterday - resulting in nothing but the bridge pup's sound on its own when it's in bridge position. On the other hand, since it hardly needs any change I can try that one.
But.. that pink wire from the 3-way to the volume pot, it doesn't have to be there does it? I mean, the 2 p's on the lever are connected so in regular mode its signal would still go to the volume. In this case in series mode there's no connection between the 3-way lever p's and the volume. Which would mean that I really don't have to change anything on the regular switch. Therefore, it would be worth a try. I mean, if I have to change the wiring on there I might as well change it completely.
Although I still don't know if shorting the neck pickup leads to absolutely no sound from it? Considering sumgai's wiring, I'd like to know (excuse me if it's already been told me, I just woke up)
edit: I took a look at my guitar's wiring once more. I concluded that by connecting the neck's lead to the bridge's ground, I also connected it to its own ground (because all the grounds are connected to each other), meaning that the neck was shorted. In the middle position, the pups' leads (neck and bridge) are connected to each other so then the bridge was shorted as well. This conclusion also tells me that shorting a pickup definitely kills the signal coming from it.
Therefore, sumgai's wiring is right. But first I'm going to try Chris's diagram, because it's easier to achieve.
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Post by sumgai on Jul 6, 2007 12:04:46 GMT -5
erik, Well, it's only partially correct........ in my haste to adapt the original drawing of a 4-way switch, I got a 3-way switch all right, but I forgot to remove the Master tone control and install individual tone controls for each pickemup. The drawing above has been modified to show that change too, look again if you didn't catch that. Also, before you charge ahead with Chris's drawing, I'd caution you to wait until he chimes in with any comments on my suppositions and musings, posted just above. On a different note, to answer your earlier concern....... The Neck pup is shorted in the traditional sense of the word when the selector is set to Bridge, that's true. This results in the pickup acting like a piece of straight wire, as far as hum/buzz is concerned. (As anyone who listens to shortwave radio will tell you, a coil gives better reception than a hunk o'wire, any day of the week. Without additional switching, we can't eliminate the fact that the Neck + lead is always connected to the output (even when we aren't using it), so we have to ameliorate the situation as best as possible. The short will not harm any other part of the circuit, because it affects only the pickup itself. Also, there was discussion several months ago about "Tone Suck", where JohnH tested for tonality when a pickup is configured like this (a shorted pup within a series string of pickups). He concluded that the difference between a shorted pickup and a completely disconnected pickup was too small to be discernable. I adopted his findings, and adapted them as shown and explained above. And finally, another word of advice...... sometimes you just can't achieve your goal without doing more work than you originally envisioned. The moral of that story is, don't be afraid to get your hands dirty - move some of those wires around, or put in new ones...... lather, rinse and repeat as needed! ;D For confirmation of this little strategm, look again at Chris's signature. ;D HTH sumgai
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erik
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Post by erik on Jul 6, 2007 13:21:14 GMT -5
I wasn't paying too much attention to how the tone was wired. I saw it was a master but I know I can do that right without having it drawn in a diagram first.
As for the trial and error thing, first I want to understand the diagram I'm using and see if it's really going to work. My soldering skills aren't <i>that</i> good and it's one of my two main guitars (other is the Les Paul) so I can't really miss it. Besides, I still have to get myself a new soldering iron and that switch, so for the moment I won't rush getting started.
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Post by ChrisK on Jul 6, 2007 22:56:28 GMT -5
Yes, it's a wee bit different, but when the tone is at "10", the effect is the same as the bridge circuit, and when the pot is turned toward "0" the upper part of the resistive element is in parallel with the cap (which has the overriding effect). This is why I did it on the neck pickup and not the bridge.
And yes, to avoid long cap leads, it's a tie point.
And yes, since he's a'fond of a'cuttin, have at it (he prob'ly already cut one pot, eh)?
YES, it does. When in parallel mode, both 3-way poles are connected to the top terminal on the volume pot. When in series, only the neck pole is connected (the bridge pole is connected to the neck pickup return wire [Series is]). This is how the series switch can override regardless of the 3-way position (which means that one ONLY has to use the push pull to switch to series.
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erik
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Post by erik on Jul 7, 2007 4:35:28 GMT -5
But I see the neck + goes to the DPDT after the 3-way (regardless of the 3-way's position), where in series mode it is connected to a wire that goes to volume. Or has this something to do with the tonepot that is on that wire's path?
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Post by ChrisK on Jul 7, 2007 23:33:17 GMT -5
Argh!, I drew a wiring diagram 'cuz most folk have trouble speaking schematic. Seems like I need to draw a schematic, eh?
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Post by sumgai on Jul 8, 2007 2:44:46 GMT -5
erik While Chris's diagram may leave you wondering if you've been on a 3-day bender, it is in fact the more desirable one to follow - it has no hanging hot leads in the first place, thus requiring no "partially effective fix", like mine. Go with his, it'll do what you want. sumgai
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erik
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Post by erik on Jul 8, 2007 6:02:38 GMT -5
I will probably try this one, as soon as I completely understand it. When in series mode, with the switch in bridge position the signal goes through the DPDT to volume. But that very same connection that makes it possible for the signal to come through in 'bridge' position, is still there in neck or both positions. I mean, I see how this schematic is correct, but I just don't get why.. well: In any position in series mode now, the signal would always go via the dpdt-switch. And I hope you guys can't prove me wrong, cuz otherwist I would have to change things on my 3-way anyway
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Post by sumgai on Jul 8, 2007 13:57:48 GMT -5
( EDIT..... three posts down, Chris shows an error in my following post.) erik, Your circuit also works - you simply moved one wire from the center terminal of the Series over-ride switch to the parallel terminal. Electrically speaking, there is no difference in the overall results. But if it makes things easier for you to understand, then it is a better circuit! sumgai
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erik
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Post by erik on Jul 8, 2007 15:46:45 GMT -5
I understood the other one, but I thought you guys were telling me that changing it into my 'version' of it was wrong. The only real difference is just that this doesn't require changing the connections on my 3-way at all So I'm gonna get my soldering stuff and DPDT soon and try this one out. In case it will work out, thank you so much for helping me out!
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Post by sumgai on Jul 8, 2007 16:48:42 GMT -5
erik, Chris may well have been thinking of this "requirement" when he drew up his version...... it's a sure bet that I wasn't! But then again, I was just modifying a previous diagram. That's my story, and I'm sticking to it! HTH sumgai
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Post by ChrisK on Jul 8, 2007 23:03:16 GMT -5
Arghenhoofinhafinflappinblinkinblankowitz! It's a series over-ride svitch on a two-voice guitar. The 3-way switch is fer dem parallellen pickmeupem modems (110 baud only, please). The series over-ride svitchem enables der operator to simply operate one control fer de series over-ride without requiring any GeFutzen mit der parallellen mode svitch. While your version works somewhat similar, it still requires some GeFutzen mit der parallellen 3-way svitch or the neck pickup may (as in will) be GeShorted in the middle "both" position. In my design, the neck is overwhelmingly connected to the signal bus in the series mode by one pole on the DPDT to make the actual position of the neck's pole on the 3-way moot, and which also ensures that the position of said 3-way is moot regarding the bridge pickup's pole thereof (it then ain't connected, period). Futhermoreski. the other pole of the DPDT switches the return lead of the neck pickup from ground/common to the output of the bridge pickup regardless of the position of the 3-way. Don't make me use the word aforementioned in a sentence! Arghen............................................owitz!
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erik
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Post by erik on Jul 9, 2007 4:13:43 GMT -5
Convinced as I was about the little change, I didn't look at the other signals coming through that my version of your design would cause. Shorting the neck pickup and allowing the bridge to come through in the both pickups position.
This somehow feels like a physics class where my teacher finally convinces me that I was wrong. (not that that happened a lot, cuz my teacher was lousy)
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erik
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Post by erik on Aug 7, 2007 7:43:42 GMT -5
Okay now, I'm getting impatient. Got all my soldering stuff, ordered the push pull about 2 weeks ago. Meanwhile, I've stripped down my Jackson Stealth (which is tuned to open C#5). What's left of the HSS, 5-way, master volume and tone is just the humbucker and the volume, cuz I have the tendency to rip out anything I don't use on a guitar. This, however, means I have an extra tonepot left, 250K with capacitor. Might come in handy, since I'm going to need a second capacitor for in my Strat. Oh well, this post is mainly to let you know I'm still alive. (hm.. I really want to get this done before I finally buy my new Fender Jaguar.) Edit: Okay, right now I have made all the changes I could make without the dpdt. This I did for three reasons: one was to check if the capacitor from my Jackson worked for my Strat (hooray, it does!). Second reason is that now I won't have to spend an hour soldering when I get the DPDT. Last reason was complete boredom
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