Will this work? Let me know please???

[superfuzz]

Greetings!!

Ive got an idea on reworking the electronics on my fender mustang guitar...Basically, Id like my guitar to produce two tones: A true bridge single coil sound, and a true bridge humbucker sound...Yes, thats right, a bridge humbucker, and bridge single coil...The reason for this is that i prefer a bridge single coil sound for my cleans, and a bridge humbucker sound for my dirty tones. I like em bright and cutting...

Dunno if this will work though, but Heres what i think i need to do on how to have both true bridge single coil, and true bridge humbucker sounds on my mustang:

Id route the bridge pickup cavity on my mustang to fit a full sized humbucker. Then, Id order a custom mustang pickguard cut for a humbucker on the bridge position.....Then, heres the tricky part: id stick a true bridge single coil and a bridge single coil sized humbucker(ie hot rails) together making both pickups the same dimensions as a true humbucker, then mount them on the custom pickguard(bridge position off course), thus having a true single coil as well as a humbucker(well single coil sized humbucker) in the bridge position.

Am i making sense here?? Will this work?? I am guessing it should, since the true single coil and the single coil sized humbucker stuck together make one humbucker in dimensions and is mounted in the bridge position. Basically, Its like mounting a bridge humbucker in the bridge position, when actually, its two different pickups stuck together(single coil, and single coil sized humbucker).

I was thinking of just installing a single coil sized humbucker on the bridge position on my mustang then having a coil split, but that wont really sound like a true single coil when split..Ive found that humbuckers coil tapped sound thin and wimpy...Also, Some might say that single coil sized humbucker dont sound like real humbuckers either, but ive tried a stacked single coils that sound like a real humbucker...

Any comments, thoughts, suggestions are welcome... Thanks!

[toddw]

Hey Superfuzz,
I'm a newbie around here, but will chime in anyway. I can't see any reason your method wouldn't work, but I don't know if it will give you the sounds you want and it is the hard route. Sort of depends on whether that single coil sized humbucker give the tone you are after in your guitar. It's going to be hum-bucking, but it will also sense a shorter string length and may have a different tone than the full sized ones, but you did say you found one you liked.

Before you go router the guitar or change pickguards, I'd try putting that single width HB in your mustang and see if it has the sound you like.

If it does, then see if you like the sound of that pickup wired in parallel. I know the seymour duncan single coil sized HB's have four conductors, and I don't think it'll sound as "wimpy" as coil split might.

If that gives you the sound you want, you could use a push pull DPDT switch potentiometer at the tone position to change between HB and single coil sounds. It avoids having to router the body or buy a new pick guard.

I'll be curious to see what others say.

Todd

[Sebster5696]

Hi,
You can use that methord although putting a single sized humbucker and a normal single coil is not the way to go. All you have to do is put a normal sized humbucker in that has 4 conductor wiring and use a coil tap swith so you can have humbucker or single coil easily.

Hope ive helped cya

[ChrisK]

I was thinking of just installing a single coil sized humbucker on the bridge position on my mustang then having a coil split, but that won't really sound like a true single coil when split...

Well, a single coil sized humbucker will sound "more" like a single coil than a wider side-by-side coil humbucker will (the string sensing magnetic aperture is narrower).

I've found that humbuckers coil tapped sound thin and wimpy..

That's only because each coil of a traditional dual coil humbucker is, well, thin and wimpy....

But in series.....

Also, Some might say that single coil sized humbuckers don't sound like real humbuckers either, but I've tried a stacked single coil that sound like a real humbucker...

"Real" is in the ear of the beholder. If it sounds good to you, then it sounds good to you, and that's what matters anyway.


I would try the "dual-sound" approach using the series and parallel coil configurations that toddw mentions. One of the reasons that a single coil sized humbucker can sound thin when split is that it's, uh, kinda physically thin (magnetic aperture and coil width) when split. Parallel preserves the same sensing aperture as the series configuration, but with about half the output signal and about an octave higher frequency response emphasis.

[toddw]

Not having tried this yet, I didn't realize you lost 50% of the output amplitude in parallel, but I think I get it.

Is it I correct to think about parallel wiring as two coils, each with 1/4 the inductance of the original series wired pick up? I.e. 2x.25=.5

Todd

[ChrisK]

Not having tried this yet, I didn't realize you lost 50% of the output amplitude in parallel, but I think I get it.

Think of it as two 1.5 VDC batteries. Now add about 5K of series resistance to the plus terminal of each.

When they are in series, their voltages add. When they are in parallel, their voltages average (thru the resistors). The series structure will have about twice the output voltage.

In audio parlance, this is -6dB (half the voltage, half the current, 1/4 the power). This is about two or three (as a stretch) human ear discernible levels quieter.

Is it I correct to think about parallel wiring as two coils, each with 1/4 the inductance of the original series wired pick up? I.e. 2x.25=.5

No. For simple equal value inductors, the resulting parallel inductance is 1/4 that of a series structure. Each inductor will have an actual value of 1/2 that of the series structure, and twice that of the parallel structure.

For independent inductors (no mutual inductance); when in series, their inductances are added and when in parallel their inductances are parallel'ized. In other words, they follow the resistance model.

Zt_series = Za + Zb.

Zt_parallel = (Za * Zb)/(Za + Zb).

If the inductors are 1 Henry, in series they add to 2 Henries and in parallel they result in 1/2 Henry.

A 1 Henry and 2 Henry inductor results in 3 Henries in series and 2/3 Henry in parallel.


If you have a tapped inductor on a common core (I have several such toroids of incremental values), if the tap is at 1/2 the total number of turns, the tapped inductance is 1/4 of the total.


Two single coil pickups (with minimal mutual inductance) will tend to behave more like two separate inductors (except for the magnetic field part mentioned below).


Now, most humbucker pickup have two relatively equal coils that share a common magnet and pole structure. As a result, there is mutual inductance and coupling that results in total inductance values somewhere other than at these aforementioned "clean" solutions. In essence, we have something approaching an inductor (well, transformer really) with two windings. Remember, to effect hum cancellation, we have two windings that are out of electrical phase with each other. I guess that it's a good thing that the ferrous structure of a (side-by-side) humbucker makes for a fairly crappy transformer/inductor core. Also, the measured inductance varies with the magnetization strength of the magnets.

If I connect a pickup to my LCR (Inductance/Capacitance/Resistance) meter, the values read change as a result of variations in the magnetic field strength.
In other words, not only are the readings different from the manufacturer's stated values, the pickup magnetic response is shifted asymmetrically and, in theory, such asymmetry could lead to asymmetrical signal generation somewhat similar to a single-ended tube circuit, prior to the onset of clipping.

[toddw]

Fantastic!

It seems the voltage/volume issue is much simpler than I had realized, while the inductance is more complex.

I really need to read more about inductance as it applies to transformers and pick-ups. My simple electronics text by Delton Horn doesn't cover it very well.

Thank you for explaining it,

Todd

[ChrisK]

Unfortunately, today's BSEE programs don't cover it especially well either.

Live and learn.

while the inductance is more complex.

Ohhh, an electrical engineering joke! ;D


'Round and round she goes; j, -1, -j, 1. Ha ha ha!

[CheshireCat]

Another possibility is this:

Use three coils total . . . one regular, and two rwrp, like the middle pickup on a strat. Put the reg and one of the rwrp's together as a humbucker. The third one, the extra rwrp, gets buried in the guitar, and acts like a dummy coil. If you can pry out the magnet, then it can go anywhere. If not, then it needs to be far away from the strings.

Now, the "splitter" in question really isn't a splitter. It simple toggles between the two rwrp pickups. When on the paired rwrp single coil, you have a humbucker effect. When on the dummy rwrp single coil, you have a single coil effect. Plus, both settings are humcancelling.

[toddw]

What is rwrp? reverse wired or wound? reversed poles?
Sorry, just trying to understand the concept here.
Thanks,
Todd

[ashcatlt]

you've pretty much got it. Reverse Wound, Reverse (Magnetic) Polarity.

[toddw]

Thanks!

[sumgai]

cheshirecat said:

Another possibility is this:

Use three coils total . . . one regular, and two rwrp, like the middle pickup on a strat. Put the reg and one of the rwrp's together as a humbucker. The third one, the extra rwrp, gets buried in the guitar, and acts like a dummy coil. If you can pry out the magnet, then it can go anywhere. If not, then it needs to be far away from the strings.

Now, the "splitter" in question really isn't a splitter. It simple toggles between the two rwrp pickups. When on the paired rwrp single coil, you have a humbucker effect. When on the dummy rwrp single coil, you have a single coil effect. Plus, both settings are humcancelling.

That would work, to a degree. The hidden problem here is, the main reason a humbucker sounds muddy compared to a single coil is the higher inductance (not to mention the higher impedance) of the combined coils. Simply moving a coil (with its magnets intact) to a different location within the guitar won't reduce the electrical reality, that being the serial connection of two coils, each of nominally useful impedance, etc. However, while removing the magnets will reduce the inductance a fair amount, this will also affect that sensitivity of the coil. It may, or may not, produce the same strength of signal for the hum it picks up, and the resultant hum reduction may not be useful. Only experimentation will determine the usability, there are too many factors involved to lay down a general rule on this scenario.

I think this arrangement won't sound too much like a single coil. However, the resultant tone may turn out to be useful, in spite of my prediction, so one should experiment anyway. ;D

HTH


sumgai