wiring 57 classics into epi g-400

[epig]

I have an epiphone g-400 and wired in a pair of 57 classics in it.
Now in the Bridge position I like the sound But in the neck position the sound is to bassy/muddled for my liking. The sound in the middle position is terrible. almost like I have a miny wah peddle in my guitar. Apparently I didn't wire this right and I need help. Also I want new pots because I have full on-kind of on- and off. I would like more control throughout the volume and tone range like a Fender would have. I tried 500k Gibson short shaft pots but they don't fit through the holes drilled in my guitar. Help What do I need

[gfxbss]

Epi,

I would like to start off by saying Welcome to Guitar Nuts2!

With the 57 classics being 2 wire, you cant really wire it wrong. there is only a positive wire and a negative wire. therefore, if the pup makes a sound, it is wired correctly. are you sure that your neck pup is the correct height? if its not, that could have something to do with your problem. if nothing else, you could try putting the old neck pup back in, and see if it sounds better then......

as far as the "full on, kind of on, and off" have your tried putting a treble bleed capacitor in? this should help smooth out your pot.....

HTH

Tyler

[epig]

thanks. I guess if I did it right thats a good thing. I'll try the stock pup again since I spent about 45 minutes adjusting the 57 up and down and just can't get it to sound right.

[ChrisK]

First, are you sure that they're in the right pickup positions? I don't know how to tell the difference except to recommend that the one with the higher resistance be used in the bridge position (more windings).

Second, it may well have to do with the height of the pickups. If these have identical resistances, they're probably the same version and you'll have to deal with the volume differences via height adjustment.

Third, the pickups may be electrically out of phase with each other. Are these pickups a set or individual acquisitions? Are these single conductor (well, a single wire covered by a shield) or 4 wire plus shield (where phase can be an issue as well as easy to correct)? OEM pickups (those shipped in the guitars) from Gib$on (every little wire count$) tend to be single conductor, whereas the replacement versions tend to be 4 wire plus shield.

Fourth, there could be a wiring issue. Unless you used linear pots for volume, you should be able to have better volume adjustment control.


Do you have a wiring diagram of what you're trying to implement?

Do you have some digital pics of the wiring that you could post?

[epig]

I put them in a couple years ago and never measured the resistance. Just brought them home and put them in (rookie mistake I guess).

I've tried adjusting the height and still have too much low end and not enough "definition" for my taste on the neck pup.

These are single conductor Gibson 57 (paf) classics. They are the same pups in neck/bridge positions but I purchased them at different times (not a maching set).

I have no idea what kind of pots I have. I had replaced them years ago because I had a few that were scratchy. The are supposed to be 500K but I did not check them. They turn easy with no cracking but I just don't have much control.

When I wired in the pups (or was it the pots?) I needed more wire and did not have the correct gauge. Figuring that thicker wire would be better, I used some thin speaker wire I had around. Could this be a problem?

I went to stew-mac to double check my wiring and it appears I have the wiring going to the correct places. Everything does what its supposed to (volume is volume, tone is tone, up down is up down).

Tyler recommended a treble bleed capacitor which sounds like fun to try but where do I buy these? What brand, what size? I'd seen a diagram to put one in and that looks easy enough so I'm excited to try that.

That and is there a brand, or something to look for, when I buy a pot so that I know I'm getting a quality one. I was going to put Gibson ones in (short shaft) but the holes through the guitar were to small. I could drill them out but this was my first (and only) electric guitar and I need to use it for shows quite often and don't wanna crack the finish drilling the holes out.

I'm new at this stuff so thanks for all your guys' help and please be patient.

[gfxbss]

epi,

Tyler recommended a treble bleed capacitor which sounds like fun to try but where do I buy these? What brand, what size? I'd seen a diagram to put one in and that looks easy enough so I'm excited to try that.

i buy mine at RadioShack. they are nothing special just .001mf. no brand or anything like that.

That and is there a brand, or something to look for, when I buy a pot so that I know I'm getting a quality one.

i usually just go to my local shop. also, you can look online at guitar parts retailers.

HTH.

Tyler

[epig]

Ok thanks I'll get some parts ordered up and try everything new. This time I'll actually check the resistance on the parts I'm putting in so I'll know what I have.

A mllion Thanks.
Jeremy

P.S. If all pots and caps are created equall whats with all this "these guitars are wired in America" hype.

[ChrisK]

?Marketing!

[gfxbss]

please dont forget the oxygen free cables....

[ashcatlt]

epig said:

Ok thanks I'll get some parts ordered up and try everything new. This time I'll actually check the resistance on the parts I'm putting in so I'll know what I have.

A mllion Thanks.
Jeremy

I'd like to point out that even if the pots are the correct resistance value, they could be the wrong taper. Somebody mentioned it above, but I can't be sure from your responses that you caught it. You'll want audio, or log taper pots for your volumes. I think there's some debate when it comes to the tones.

I don't think having the pickups out of phase would cause the problem you're having with the neck position. Does the tone control actually make a difference on that pickup?

P.S. If all pots and caps are created equall whats with all this "these guitars are wired in America" hype.

I think this is to point up the fact that the job of wiring the guitar was given to an Amerikan, as opposed to some "dirty stinkin unworthy ferriner." If you don't buy the Amerikan wired ones you're a commie or terrorist or whatever scapegoat they've got going this week.

[epig]

Yeah I caught that about the pots. Thats why I think I'll just replace the whole works and make sure I have everything right. an yeah the tone controls both work and they both work for the correct pup. Same with the volumes.

I see you live in Duluth, I live just west of Minneapolis. Small world.

I wonder if I find time next weekend and drive the guitar up to Canada to wire it if it will sound better. You know "Candian Wired"!!!!!!!

[ChrisK]

I see you live in Duluth, I live just west of Minneapolis. Small world.

I'll be up in yer small world next week fer a conference (UMinn/Minneapolis).

[sumgai]

Hey, a mini-Nutz conference! ;D

Be sure to drink a beer for the rest of us!


sumgai

(edit) And take some pictures, suitable for posting on a family-quality forum, eh!

[epig]

Victory!!!!!!!!!

Thanks everyone for the helping hand. Recieved my new stuff today and got it wired in and have had great success.
New 500K pots, .02 mf caps for the tone, and .001mf caps for the treble bleed all add up to the best that this guitar has ever sounded. I actually need to turn the tone pots down a bit instead of leaving them on ten and wishing I had eleven.

This ought to sooth the urge of needing a new toy for atleast a couple of months.

But there must be something more I can do....hmmm

Thanks
Jeremy

[gfxbss]

jeremy,

awesome man! glad it all works. as nearly anyone here will probably tell you, there are a lot more things you could do to it..... coil taps, phase switch, series/parallel wiring ect..... all of it is so much fun.... ;D


Tyler

[JohnH]

Jeremy - thats great news. I have a 57 Classic in the neck of my LP Studio, with a 480T at the bridge, and I love the sound of them both. When I got the guitar, the pots on the neck were 300k and there was definately a missing edge from the 57. I havent done my final rewire on this yet, but for now, I have added a 180k resistor to the ground side of that 300k volume pot to make it like a 480k pot (it doesnt go to zero, but then I dont use it at zero). I also made a no-load cut in the track of the 300k tone pot.

These two mods allow a much better tone to come through, loading the pup with just the 480k of the volume+resistor, insread of effectively 150k from two 300k pots.

500k pots are definately the way to go if you replace pots.

I also broke into my pups and put in four-conductor wiring. It was not hard to do, and I find the single coil sounds from each pup are very useful indeed for rythyms.

Im needing this guitar each week for some playing commitments, and it is by far my best guitar. When thats over for a while, Ill decide on a more permanent rewire with all new pots.

John

[ChrisK]

I haven't done my final rewire on this yet, but for now, I have added a 180k resistor to the ground side of that 300k volume pot to make it like a 480k pot (it doesn't go to zero, but then I don't use it at zero).

In a similar "not quite all the way to zero" vein;

guitarnuts2.proboards45.com/index.cgi?board=wiring&action=display&thread=1190836084

this outta stir things up!

[JohnH]

Aghhh! you've added circular cross-references at the end of each thread - I'm stuck in an infinite loop between threads!!
John

[ChrisK]

Excel'ent isn't!

[epig]

Hi John
I was under the impression that the single conductor 57 paf's were not a good candidate for coil tapping. I would love to try this. How do I get in there without destroying the pup.

Jeremy

[JohnH]

Jeremy - it works fine, provided you are willing to do some surgery. This is not hard to do, but you have to decide whether you want to try it on a relatively valuable pup like a Gibson 57 classic. It probably reduces its resale value, and if it is an old one, spoils its vintage status.

I decided to do it because I really liked the pups, and really wanted the options, plus I had previously tried it on some cheaper pups with no problems.

It worked fine for me, and I saw no detriment to the basic Hb sound, and i can get other wiring schemes too. Nearly always, I set the neck rythym pup for a single coil setting, and I love the sound of it, on its own, or combined with the bridge Hb or Sc.

You have to remove the solder blobs on the back that fix the case together, and I did this by filing them since the solder is quite soft. Then the old braided wire must be removed (which involves unsoldering it from the base). The new wire should be screened 4-conductor type, and it will need a new hole drilled in the base since it is thicker. Then carefully expose the wires leading to the coils and seperate them. Solder he new wires on, using some heat-shrink to insulate them, following a colour scheme that you can remember. Then you can close up the pup, remount it and start playing with all the options.

I took some photos, and in a couple of days, I'll be able to post them somewhere.

cheers

John

[epig]

sweet.
Once I see the photos I'll see if I can muster up the courage. Whats the worst that can happen right?

[JohnH]

Jeremy,

OK, Ive added a description with photos to my web site.

But Id suggest first reading this, for the theory of Hb construction and 4-wire conversion, from our own Wolf:

www.1728.com/guitar1a.htm

Then read this, which I wrote about some open-coil humbuckers that I did before:

au.geocities.com/guitarcircuits/fourconductor/fourconductor.html

And then read this, the new stuff about the '57 Classic:

au.geocities.com/guitarcircuits/fourconductor/fourconductor2.html

And this may help, with colour code conventions and connections for wiring 4 conductors:

www.guitarelectronics.com/category/wiringresources.11pickupcolorcodes/

good luck!

John

ps the worst that can happen? You end up with a wrecked pup! - but its not hard to make it work with a little care.

[gfxbss]

john, what is your site? im looking to put new leads on some dimarzios and would like a decent reference.

Tyler

[JohnH]

au.geocities.com/guitarcircuits
But i dont have anything on it more than the pages I pointed to above, for adding leads to pups

John

[gfxbss]

ahh, gotcha. well, its nice to see a fellow nutz work on the web

Tyler