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Post by UnklMickey on Aug 19, 2005 15:04:10 GMT -5
no, not mesmerizing songs. (although thats an interesting subject too!)
OK guys, i looked at the # of posts in the different categories and it looks like we've gotten focused on the technical / gear side of things.
i mean really, 172 threads on Electronics & Wiring and only 6 on Theory & Technique! it's natural for us to spend more time on gear (he who dies with the most toys, wins!) but we need to also spend a bit of time here too. (even 10:1 would be reasonable)
being a troubleshooter at heart (and having modest playing skills) i'm as guilty or more so than anyone!
so i figger i'll try to get y'all inspired to drop an occasional tip or two here by posting this one:
the usual way that someone learns to memorize a piece (or learn from listening) is to begin at the beginning, play as far as they can, work on the first trouble spot, go back to the beginning, play as far as they can work on the next trouble spot, etc. until they can play all the way through.
this sequence is tragically flawed!
when performing, what audiences remember MOST is the last thing they hear. if you learned or memorized the song by the above sequence, the part you practiced the most is the intro. the part you practiced least (hence is the WEAKEST part of your performance) is the ending.
try this instead:
learn the ending first! take a bite-sized portion of the very end, get it down cold, back up a bit, and play through to the last note, repeating until the new section is solid, and repeat the process until finally you are starting at the beginning. during each step, the hardest part is going to be the new portion and you reinforce the stuff you learned in the previous steps.
even if you're a bit shaky on the intro, you'll play better as you go. you'll play your best by the time you get to the end!
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Post by jdtogo on Aug 20, 2005 10:21:24 GMT -5
I never looked at it that before .... I will give it a try . thank you !
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Post by bam on Sept 7, 2005 22:36:02 GMT -5
nice idea .. although my teacher always tells me to replay the entire song each time I made a mistake. (undoubtedly, the ending part would be the one played least often, though
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Mustang
Apprentice Shielder
"If you don't like blues, you've got a hole in your soul."
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Post by Mustang on Nov 11, 2005 9:20:19 GMT -5
Man, there is some wisdom here. I've basically picked for self satisfaction all my life, just sitting around picking alone. So, I picked up a terrible habit of learning the lead parts that I love and just about ignoring the rest. I've always said, I know a bunch of partial songs and very few complete songs. I have to say, starting at the end and working your way backwards sounds like a good approach. At least the goal is the complete song. Even starting from the beginning and working through the tough spots, you might tend to quit when you've mastered the tough parts and forget about the ending.
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Post by Ripper on Jan 29, 2006 13:08:48 GMT -5
When im trying something and I screw up...I curse like a sailor! Then resume my quest but at a much slower speed.
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Post by Mini-Strat_Maine on Jan 29, 2006 23:06:56 GMT -5
When im trying something and I screw up...I curse like a sailor! That's how La Wife knows where I am and what I'm doing. She can hear twang-twang-twang >CLINK< Likewise, although in case there's ever again a day when I play in public, I'm trying to train myself to just keep on playing as though there was no clinker. My instructor says to just keep playing nonchalantly, because even the bad notes eventually fade off into oblivion. I've been at shows Pat did where he thought his playing was "off," but I couldn't spot any mistakes because he just kept on jammin'. I like U.M.'s idea, though, and am going to put it to use starting tomorrow. I think the Eagles played (on The Long Run, 1979) "In The City" as a repeat-and-fade. But on Hell Freezes Over, in a live performance, they finished it up with the opening riff to the Beatles' "Day Tripper." And of course the crowd went nuts. That'll be almost like learning two songs in one.
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Post by ux4484 on May 19, 2006 17:29:26 GMT -5
heh... sorry for resurrecting an old thread..... For me, it's always depended on the song. For almost any Beatles song, I always work on the bridge first, because it's usually where I make the most mistakes (heck, the bridge from most Beatles songs would be the Chorus now-a-days). Back in my band days, we had our sometimes trumpet player/sound guy fade the P.A. for endings, cleared that messy ending part right up . My biggest problem playing bass was playing bass and singing lead vocals. (This is where people don't realize how fantastically talented Paul McCartney and Geddy Lee are to be able to do it effortlessly). IMO, it's much easier to sing playing guitar than bass on most R&R and R&B. It was the reason I even started playing guitar at all as some songs we did I couldn't play bass and sing (Blue Oyster Cult's"Burnin For You" comes to mind). As my requirements are much more meager now, I have a more relaxed approach. I used to memorize the vocals, then mem the bassline, and then mesh them (If I could). Now I go right for the guitar and vocals at the same time....very....slow.... and often an octave low on vocals just so I can get the timing right, no need to rip out my pipes getting timing down.
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Post by Ripper on May 20, 2006 15:41:33 GMT -5
Hey guys...
I was watching some old Zeppelin videos, and I think we all know that Jimmy Page was a genius, but also a very sloppy player.
In the video he made some obvious mistakes but kept on going and showed what a trooper he really was/is.
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Post by quarry on May 20, 2006 18:11:59 GMT -5
In the video he made some obvious mistakes but kept on going and showed what a trooper he really was/is. Isn't it funny, when you catch those mistakes, your first thought is, "did he do that on purpose?" Its so hard to think of someone like Page actually screwing up...
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Post by gfxbss on Dec 10, 2006 14:54:44 GMT -5
unk, thanks this is deff true.
im with mustang, i can play part of a hundred songs, but maybe 3 full ones.... i need to get out of this bad habit.
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Post by vonFrenchie on Dec 30, 2006 22:23:09 GMT -5
work hard to get to the end... but if you dont go out with a big bang people will remember the show as something ordinary.
I remember Steve Miller's second encore from Summer fest a few years back so clearly. (i can barely remember the set list) They played fly like an eagle for 14 minutes. After the second guitar solo his keyboardist rapped (was pretty good) then they played for another 5 minutes. I could go on and on about that show but most of it would be about that last song... because at that time it wiped everything else out of my head. Like they always say... save the best for last. Dont plan encores though.
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Post by cynical1 on Dec 5, 2008 2:03:37 GMT -5
In the video he made some obvious mistakes but kept on going and showed what a trooper he really was/is. Like the first really good guitarist I played with years ago once said "It ain't a mistake if you play it twice"Happy Trails Cynical one
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Post by andy on Dec 5, 2008 8:44:16 GMT -5
"It ain't a mistake if you play it twice" Ha ha! I've taken that notion a bit too far on occasion. It all depends on how bad of a mistake you repeat! It's the second look which tells you if you cross the line- the first will always be"Wha...?" the second is either "Oh cool, I get it" or "Man, I thought he was an idiot the first time!" As for learning songs, I tend to do it in blocks- first the chorus, then the verse, then hook them together. Then it is usually just a few extra bars here and there to glue it all in. An over-simplification, of course, but thats the basic plan.
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Post by ashcatlt on Dec 5, 2008 12:04:55 GMT -5
I heard something similar, but it was more like: "If you hit a wrong note, hit it two more times..." Maybe that's been my problem all along?
I really don't bother learning anything note for note anymore. Get the basic idea and figure out how to make it mine.
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Post by andy on Dec 5, 2008 14:05:50 GMT -5
Get the basic idea and figure out how to make it mine. Me too- perhaps that's why my over-easy method works. In fact I learnt a solo note for note for the first time in my life just the other week, 16 or so years into playing. I was in bands and playing gigs before I could really play, so I've always adopted songs rather than learn them! However, once enough drunk guys had sung the solo to Golden Brown to me, I decided it would be worth knowing it 'for real' when it came up in a covers gig.
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Post by ashcatlt on Dec 6, 2008 0:02:01 GMT -5
To be brutally honest, I have to admit that some of my reasoning does relate to the fact that I'd likely not be able to play anything exactly right. If I try to reproduce the popular version of a song, everybody who's not too drunk is going to be focusing on the parts where I've failed to live up to the original.
Part of it, though, is a matter of respect. So and so did it that way and did it perfectly. So let them have it.
Many genres of music have "old standards". Blues, country, jazz, etc. There are songs that have been around for years and everybody and their brother plays that song somewhere along the line. In most of these realms it's expected that each new group that comes along to play it will do something new or at least a little different. George Thoroughgood has made a career off of this.
Now, having said all this, tomorrow night I'm participating in an event called "Rock and Roll Kamikazee." A month ago, I put my name in a box, was randomly placed with a group of five other dudes and assigned to perform "Baba O'Reiley." I am playing bass and have made a token effort to figure out what Entwistle is actually playing. It's not going to be exact, but it's going to be cool!
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Post by newey on Dec 6, 2008 1:29:41 GMT -5
This sounds very cool! It could almost be the premise for a new reality TV series.
Do you get to practice this with the 5 guys, or is this totally without a net?
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Post by cynical1 on Dec 6, 2008 3:08:07 GMT -5
I am playing bass and have made a token effort to figure out what Entwistle is actually playing. It's not going to be exact, but it's going to be cool! Just cause I'm a nice guy...here a link to the bass part for Baba O'Riley in .pdf format. img75.imageshack.us/img75/6350/whothebabaorileyv1of2.pdfHappy Trails Cynical One
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Post by andy on Dec 6, 2008 10:36:26 GMT -5
The root of creativity?? There are some folk who can play whatever you write on the staves, there are some who can copy Steve Vai by ear, and there are some who can do something original, even with an old classic.
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Post by ashcatlt on Dec 6, 2008 12:29:42 GMT -5
Do you get to practice this with the 5 guys, or is this totally without a net? We got together twice. One dude is playing keyboards and drums. Another is playing harmonica through pedals. He's able to recreate the keyboard part pretty accurately. Then we had three guitars the first time. I decided to play bass after that first time in order to leave some room for the guys who can actualy play. ' Thanks for that pdf. Unfortunately, I've got about 10 hours before I get on stage... Looking at it, it seems to be dumbed down a little. At least based on the live version I've found on Youtube. He's got a couple other fills in there, and he occasionally does this thing where he hammers onto the C and Bb from the open A. I've bot my bass strung with the lowest strings from a 5 string set, and I've tuned the whole thing up a half step, so I can play around the open strings, and I get to hit the low C for some extra rumble in the "chorus" section. We're also doing Lou Reed's "Sweet Jane", and a blues jam in F. So, only 4 chords for 15 minutes!
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Post by cynical1 on Dec 6, 2008 13:21:28 GMT -5
Thanks for that pdf. Unfortunately, I've got about 10 hours before I get on stage... Looking at it, it seems to be dumbed down a little. At least based on the live version I've found on Youtube. It is dumbed down. You did mention that the gig is today and you've had little time to practice. Sometimes simple and stupid is the safest way out. If you don't play alot of bass you can move it up the neck to keep your fingers happier. Keep in mind that Entwhistle had played that song a zillion times before the video was made...and he was a monster on the bass. He was riffing to keep himself interested... I love Sweet Jane. Again, an easy song to fake through. And a blues jam is a bass players wet dream. Just keep everything in a minor blues scale, hit the first beat every time and you'll all sound like you've been playing forever... Break a leg. Happy Trails Cynical One
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Post by ashcatlt on Dec 6, 2008 16:56:27 GMT -5
Thanks for the encouragement. I've been playing bass as long as guitar and found I'm actually more comfortable on bass in this situation.
The harp player's got an F and a C. So, I'm keeping my part of the blues jam in a major scale.
And yes, I'm playing up at the 5th position for comfort and consistency. For some reason this bass (Hamer Slammer P-style) has a noticeable difference in the bottom end when I switch strings. I've got it squashed to heck with compression, but I'm still trying to keep as much as I can on the one string.
The fills Entwistle throws in are actually pretty simple little pentatonic things. It's the feel and groove that take a little work. Last Sunday was our second (and final) rehearsal, and my first on bass. The second time through we went straight through the set and it was really rockin'! The third time was horrible...
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Post by cynical1 on Dec 6, 2008 19:28:17 GMT -5
Last Sunday was our second (and final) rehearsal, and my first on bass. The second time through we went straight through the set and it was really rockin'! The third time was horrible... Ash - Just make sure you go on about 3 hours after the bar opens...never fails... Happy Trails Cynical One
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Post by ashcatlt on Dec 7, 2008 11:42:41 GMT -5
Just a quick update and then I stop this derailment. First, cynical, I'm sure sum people we know (knew?) would find it amusing that you thought you had to tell me to drink. I started the minute I got home from "Outdoor Edventures" yesterday. On that little excrusion and a couple other times all day I froze my hands to within minutes of frostbite. My car decided it wasn't going to take this cold stuff and refused to start when it came time for the gig. This was especially fun since I was also the ride for one of our other guitarists. Well, my sister-in-law got us there. I felt like I was barely holding on all through the set. Had a number of clinkers. At a couple points I just kind of gave up and went to playing one note every couple measures till I could find the groove again. Turns out this was a judged event... ...and we WON!!! I don't have anything to show you right now, but I think somebody got some video, I'll put that in another thread.
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Post by cynical1 on Dec 7, 2008 12:38:50 GMT -5
First, cynical, I'm sure sum people we know (knew?) would find it amusing that you thought you had to tell me to drink. ...I started the minute I got home from "Outdoor Edventures" yesterday. Actually, I was thinking more of the crowd...but it never hurts to lubricate the machine a little before operation... I had a big smile as I read the exploits of your journey to the gig... It brought back a few memories...and its refreshing to remember anything as age marches on... I recall one time in a similar instance when we had to call the drummer sister to take us to a gig as one or more vehicles were in various stages if disablement... She shows up in a VW Beetle with her laundry in the back. Two of us in full winter gear, a bass and guitar and the mixing board, a gig bag of assorted crap...and her laundry...all cram into this thing and putt off to the gig... I don't recall the logistics to the affair...but then, there's alot of things form that period I have a fuzzy recollection of.... Yeah, once you stop noticing the drunks in the crowd the first red flags usually go up... Congratulations! I would love to see the video. Nothing is more rewarding then playing live...but video is much more incriminating... Well, one more derailment of this thread and someone will calls the NTSB... Happy Trails Cynical One
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rockledge
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Post by rockledge on Mar 28, 2013 1:08:00 GMT -5
Sometimes it helps to write out a basic chart of where the verses, choruses, and turnarounds are. When you put it on paper it often becomes easier to remember where everything goes, which makes it easier to remember what you actually need to do when the changes happen. something like: Intro First Verse Second Verse Chorus Short Lead Chorus Third Verse Turnaround Intro licks again....... etc......
Then go back and work out the details....
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Reverie
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Post by Reverie on May 6, 2023 11:26:06 GMT -5
I frequently would memorize the beginning but towards the end I was just trying to be "done" so sometimes the end I might make a mistake. I got very good and can still hear songs that I learned 10+ years ago! Once you have it stuck in your head, you usually are able to play it if you have an ear for it!
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