popjinx
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Post by popjinx on Jul 16, 2007 13:40:38 GMT -5
>:(You can take the whammy bar full forward till the strings are "flopping" or just wiggle the whammy bar a little... you still have to re-tune every darn string.
Price? Too embarassed to say.
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Post by GuitarTechCraig on Jul 17, 2007 10:19:53 GMT -5
I have a Kahler I bought in the '80s. It stays in tune just great. They were probably even more expensive back then.
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reeced
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Post by reeced on Jul 18, 2007 19:43:25 GMT -5
I also have an original Kahler (fitted to a Yamaha SG2000). What I've found is that despite cleaning/replacing springs, it always returns slightly flat when you dive, but will always return true after pulling up - don't know why ?
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popjinx
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Post by popjinx on Jul 24, 2007 16:56:33 GMT -5
Update: It turns out that the locking string nut is part of the problem. According to my luthier, it's worn out and a few of the strings (mainly the b and g) are binding. Will replace and advise. As reeced pointed out in his post, mine does the same. You can bump the whammy bar down and the pitch of every string tends to go flat; pull up, and all strings go sharp. I spoke to a tech at Kahler and he gave some adjustment suggestions. I will make these repairs and adjustments and advise.
Thanks for the feedback! My old 80's Charvel may live again.
Mike
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Post by jkemmery on Jul 24, 2007 17:05:33 GMT -5
You might want to at least consider replacing it with a set of locking tuners. They may wind up being cheaper even, and more user-friendly. There are two types of Kahler locking nuts that I know of, and both have their drawbacks. The one's with the flip type lock rely on the screw underneath the be at the correct tension to work properly. I would normally have to wind up loosening and tightening the screw underneath to change strings. The allen wrench type ... well, you have to break out the allen wrench to change strings. Locking tuners seem to work just as well at keeping the axe in tune while being easier to restring and maintain. Just a thought.
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Post by GuitarTechCraig on Jul 25, 2007 10:18:09 GMT -5
I would recommend lubrocating the cam (the cylinder thet the whammy bar screws into) on each end of the cylinder. Machine oil, 3-in-1, whatever. Also, keep the string rollers clean and lubricated.
Also, the kahler's cam has a allen key adjustment on each side of the Kahler's main base. Kahler says, "adjusted at the factory. Do not touch". Baloney. This can have a dramatic affect on the cam's ability to bring the strings back to pitch. Too tight and it will bind. Too loose and it won't do what it's supposed to do. Unfortunately, the factory adjustment isn't always the perfect adjustment for your string tension.
As for the locking "nut" vs. locking tuner suggestions, I find the combination of a Kahler lock and a graphit nut to be perfectly reliable. A graphite nut and locking tuners will rarely match the tuning stability of a locking "nut".
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Post by jkemmery on Jul 25, 2007 14:14:55 GMT -5
I would agree that a "behind the nut" lock is perfectly reliable, and possibly slighty better at staying in tune theoretically. In my experience locking tuners aren't significantly less prone to falling out of tune. However, "behind the nut" locks are not really made any more except by Kahler, and for the price they charge ... I suppose the conveniece, availabilty and price factors combined lean me toward locking tuners, along with the fact that, for me at least, they stay in tune just as well as "behind the nut" string lock systems, and are NOT a pain in the butt.
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Post by 4real on Aug 17, 2008 20:36:43 GMT -5
I am a big fan now of the Kahler... since I put one on my new tele... I can't get enough of the thing. It is adustable for height intonation and string spread and the bridge saddles stay fixed so that the tuning wont go out with palm muting and such. Also, the strings stay level with the fretboard and pickups in use. Very little modification required to the guitar as far as routing and top adjustment of spring and arm tension which is very nice. This new hybrid model can be fixed by the little grub screw sticking out the back which is essential for easy string changes. Instead of a locking nut, I use staggered locking tuners... And an LSR roller bearing nut... Stays in tune beautifully... You can lower to the strings till floppy and up a fair way (probably more but the strings or something would break!) but in fact even though has the tuning stability and range of a floyd, I use it for bigsby like shimmer in the main. Another really great attribute of them, is that they are incredibly solid and seem to give each string a lot of definition...you hear each note ring in a chord really well... Anyway...I am a convert...I even have another project in the works with the other version on it I liked it so much... However...not cheap! pete
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Post by axekicker on Apr 27, 2010 2:02:30 GMT -5
Kahlers are crap. First, the sting has to travel over too much metal and that's a tone sucker. Second, pull up enough times and you'll bust strings because the saddles can get sharp and tear the ball ends off. And the locking nut (at least back in the day) also sucked as you'd always strip the hex screws, plus, it mounted PAST the nut which totally defeats the purpose. In order to have true stability, the unit must lock at the bridge and at the nut, wherever the string comes into contact with the guitar, and Kahler does neither. Utterly useless system IMHO.
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Post by axekicker on Apr 27, 2010 2:06:14 GMT -5
At first, it does feel like it plays beautifully, as it DOES have adjustable tension, which is killer. But if you start to get creative with it, watch out, you'll be stripping screws and busting strings left, right, and center. I'll say it again, a stock Fender bridge, and LSR roller nut and some Big Bends Nut Sauce is all you need for a great vibrato system that stays in perfect tune without having to route your axe to death.
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Post by 4real on Apr 29, 2010 1:47:35 GMT -5
Well...I still play this tele as my main guitar and has amazing tuning stability and properly set up it hasn't broken a string in the last year and a half or more.
Kahlers are crap.
This kind of thing is really a bit subjective, and depends a lot on the use and abuse given to the things.
I don't use the locking nut, but intend to on an LP I am doing, I don't expect to much of a problem.
The tone such thing, many would disagree. These things are tight and locked, very little wood is removed and the whole thing is very solid compared to the fulcrum style (which I am also a big fan of) which has the hwole thing pivoting on a knife point and balanced by long springs with a huge amount of guitar cut out of them in the back...now many would say that's tone sucking...see what I mean?
Floyds and double locking systems have their place, but they are nowhere near as practical and I have had more problems with them than I ever have had with a properly set up khaler.
Additional things are that the strings remain at height regardless of bending (don't lift on a drop like fulcrums) and they offer string space adjustment as well.
At first, it does feel like it plays beautifully, as it DOES have adjustable tension, which is killer. But if you start to get creative with it, watch out, you'll be stripping screws and busting strings left, right, and center.
Yep, it plays beautifully...and if maintained it will continue to do so. "creative" is a little subjective...of course a khaler could easily bend up enough to break all the strings off any guitar...if this is a problem and you can't hold back...perhaps a little blocking to stop you before it goes to far....don't install the strings right (A bit of a bend on the ball end helps a lot and is recomended) and you could have your strings pop out if all the way down...but by then your strings will have stuck to the pickups...again, got to be reasonable.
All mechanical systems wear of course too...fulcrum trems have their problems.
But...remember...the routing for a fulcrum trem is far more than a khaler and in a place more affecting the strings vibration...it virtually hollows out a bathtup strat in comparison.
Floyds can easily cost as much and the amount of locking screws and such make it far more likely that screws are going to be stripped and you are going to be caught out...perhaps without an allen key!
I am doing an LP at the moment and it will be having a locking nut...an LSR is not appropriate with this kind of guitar or possible. The problems with Khalers behind the nut lock (they don't sell the lever version anymore) is well overstated however.
With a lock behind the nut, there will be very little movement of the string in the nut slots at all...so the potential for hang ups is tiny...any slackness, even in locking tuners is completely eliminated and you will be saving money by not investing in expensive tuners as well...the khaler fine tuners are excellent.
Your opinion seems to be based entirely on a presumption of extreme wammi abuse in a 80's kind of way on some kind of EVHish strat or something...straight string pull at the headstock, big route already in the back of the guitar for a fulcrum trem, etc...the khaler will always be possible to do more extreme things unless you back route a claw for a floating floyd or something...but there is a limit to how much you can reasonably stretch a string...a khaler will easily break them all if that's your thing!
...
If anyone is having problems with their khalers, I have no affiliation but there are many sources of information that are helpful for fixing any problems. As far as tuning stability, my guitar has been the best I have ever owned for that (including many hard tailed guitars) in 35 years of playing the things! The problems are most likely in the set up and in particular the other end of the guitar to the bridge IMHO. Expensive yes, but you get what you pay for if this is important to you!
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Post by chuck on Jun 14, 2010 3:05:12 GMT -5
the extreme Kahler malfunction problems sound like a lot of user error , and improper maintenance to me.
a Kahler cam vibrato is MUCH more adjustable than a Floyd , and requires a little understanding .
that being said , i love both Kahlers and Floyds. they both work well.
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Post by chuck on Jun 14, 2010 3:11:27 GMT -5
oh yea , i almost forgot ... the behind the nut string locks work like a charm. i have NEVER had any tuning stability issues with them , or the floyd style.
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Post by 4real on Jun 14, 2010 6:09:50 GMT -5
All the problems would appear to be tuner or nut problems. A locking nut should fix it...personally, I don't like locking nuts, so you have to go to extraordinary lengths and some expense and mods to get it right...
I'm building a Khaler Les Paul at the moment as a sister to the tele featured above...that guitar works perfectly, but with a straight through headstock (fender style) staggered locking genuine fender/shaller locking tuners and an LSR roller bearing nut that required permanent routing of the nut slot to fit...
On my new guitar, a Les Paul with the stud model hybrid trem, I've got the problem of the angled back gibson headstock and the splayed out strings...a yamaha is going to have similar problems...
The solution...either use a string lock...or...
Invest in high quality real locking tuners for it...I've traded cheaper so called locking wilkinsons for grovers....
AND, replace the nut with some kind of low friction type...I have just fitted a Graphtech Tusq XL (white) with teflon lubrication...
So far, even awaiting the new tuners, but it is still pretty stable, the tuners are letting it down. I may do something special to get more of a straight string through over the nut, likely it will never be quite as reliable as the fender tuning wise or a locking nut...
The reason pulling up fixes it is that it pulls back the tension sticking in the nut...the problem then is not in the Kahler itself I suspect.
Also, you do need to adjust these things properly, especially the hybrid...it should float at a tension exactly so that it will lock at this position.
I like the kahlers, perhaps not for everybody...each to their own. I've never liked the floyd, for the tools alone! A traditional fulcrum strat style fulcrum works fine for me...but again you need to set them up right, and again, almost always problems are at the other end of the guitar, not the trem itself!
...
One reason I cant use a roller nut, is that I frequently use behind the nut bends and would like to explore some open tunings, at least dropping the E to D...so for that it needs to lock...
Kahlers are one of the few if only trems that really does lock well if set up right to enable this...
However, it does take an allen key to do it, not the most convenient to try and find between songs!!!
So...I "think" I have located a 6/32 thread 'thumb screw' that looks much like the fine tuners on a kahler...on the stud LP version of the kahler, it should be able to work without hitting the body and be lockable with just a few 'twists'...it's the only qualms about the design personally.
Will update with pics if all goes well...
...
The kahler has become an indispensable part of my "sound", mainly for bigsby like wobble and a few 'beck-isms' which it does fantastically...occasionally for the occasional dive bomb, it's hard to resist with these things...pulling up I am more careful with, it has a huge range and could easily snap the strings right off!
One new thing I found to be great with the things, when filing away the nut to height, the kahler easily allows the strings to go to slack to get the nut out for more shaping, a process that requires at least a dozen, probably a lot more, removal of the nut to get just right before gluing the thing down...too cool
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Post by chuck on Jun 14, 2010 13:00:12 GMT -5
i bet you will have to add the Kahler string clamp to really get tuning stability on the Paul .
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Post by 4real on Jun 14, 2010 18:35:24 GMT -5
i bet you will have to add the Kahler string clamp to really get tuning stability on the Paul . I'll take that bet!!! We'll see...traditionally it is difficult. A lot of problems are in the windings and style string the tuners...people complain about fenders to you know but if set up right, can be remarkably stable. So, high quality locking tuners, problem solved there. I looked into every way I could perhaps adapt an LSR or some kind of roller nut, but couldn't find anything...so settled for the Tusq teflon lubricated nut...so far is pretty stable. One of the big problems with this kind of thing is that the strings not only go over the nut and angle back with a fair bit of pressure (not completely bad thing though to get a clean open string response, and no string trees to worry about...but that the strings ALSO go off at quite an angle, especially the inner 4 strings, the outer E strings are pretty straight...try pulling them straight, there is a lot of side pressure on those nut slots and wear will be inevitable with trem use. SO...the solution I am working towards is an enlarged truss rod cover of 3mm aluminum (this will also add some extra mass to the headstock, reinforce the vulnerable spliced head, and add tone and sustain much like a "fat head" plate reducing vibrations at the head end of the strings)...to this I propose mounting the ball ends of some strings to make tiny rollers (Like vertical string trees) that will guide the strings straight off the nut, then around these to angle off to the tuners on the four inner strings. This means the nut only needs to resist the downward pressure and the rollers only need resist the sideways pressure (that is quite considerable) and reduce nut slot wear as well. However, even without this, and not the best tuners, it is already very stable. The locking nut does cure things and a lot cheaper as well...and certainly if your thing is a classic heavy metal dive bomb approach then this is the way to go. However, I really would miss the ability to work with the open strings...here's an example... I have been working on solo stuff, and largely what this new guitar is being built for. I make arrangements and incorporate a few "tricks" along the way. I have an arrangement for "true colours" that I made up and at the end of the chorus I do a run of open and 7th string harmonics that all ring together and also spell out the melody...so where the song goes your 'true colors are "beautiful...(harmonic run)...like a rain-bow...(into signature intro riff)' On the word 'rain' I need the note C or B-C-B resolving to the note A on 'bow'. To get this I land on the harmonic on the low E string, 7th fret, reach back to the low e string and give it a bit of a push, giving me that lift to C, let it down and my hand is already in the open position for the intro thing and play the A (2nd fret, G string) to complete the melody on the A in the same octave. Now, this kind of thing is not possible with a locking nut...even though the kahler could easily lift the harmonic, it would also lift all the others ringing underneath it, but I don't want that as the 12th fret notes are making the G chord....here, I'll tab it... -------- 12------------------------------------------------|--3-------3-------3 -------------12-------------12--------------------------|------0-2----0-2-- ------------------12---- 7--------12---------------------|----------- 2~~~~- -----------------------------------------12---------------|--------------------- --------10~~~~~--------------------------------------|--0-------2-------3- ------------------------------------------------ 7-(8)-7~|~~~~~------------ So, everything is harmonics in this first bar except the first note. The bold notes are the main melody notes... Interestingly, even though I am bending that low e, the kahler just dips a little and does the shimmery vibrato effect a touch as if I were using the bar...very cool if subtle move, compared to 'dive bombing' techniques. Now, you simply can't do that with a locking nut! Also, really would like to do some altered tuning thins occasionally, you can't really be breaking out the wrenches to lock the bridge and unlock the nut lock, retune most likely the whole guitar, put it all away...and keep an audience 'busy' as you do it...ideally, they shouldn't even know that you are doing it at all...I may even think of an arrangement that I might want to detune the low e on the fly. One might wonder why I use a trem at all, but it is a fantastic and expressive sound if used right, it is the only practical way to really bend 'down' from a note and to 'shimmer' whole chords. With a subtle echo, a slight wobble gives you a manual chorus effect...very pretty, ask hank marvin! But, this kind of music requires extremely stable tuning...it sounds very wrong if things go out at all...so, the choice of the Kahler was precisely because it has the most potential to make this stuff possible. After the success of the tele, it is also the only really practical and super stable trem (and lockable as well) that one could consider an a gibson style guitar. Anyway...we will see, there will be a way. With the advance of locking tuners nut technology, the locking nut has really gone out of fashion even without needing to worry about the kinds of things I need to to make this sound work.
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Post by chuck on Jun 14, 2010 19:01:43 GMT -5
wow ... you are really engineering the heck out of that thing . your ideas sound solid , and you know what works for your playing style , so i bet you will ace the test i admire musicians who know their tone and style , and find or make the gear they need express themselves
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Post by 4real on Jun 21, 2010 5:21:48 GMT -5
Well...just to share... This is my new LP project, still waiting on parts (locking tuners) but the Tusq XL nut is filed down pretty much and staying in tune pretty good even without the fancy plans...so far...but on the other end... I was able to find some 'thumb screws' in stainless steel of the right thread (6/32) and a little grinding and an instant no tools tremolo lock that works perfectly. Only really good for the stud tail as the other is going to be too close to the body, but ideal... The 'trick' to the khaler lock is that you need to tune up and adjust the spring tension so it perfectly balances at rest where the screw locks..so you need to adjust and tune and...well, you get the idea, but once set for your string set, it stays pretty much in the right place (my other guitars been good for almost 2 years without readjusting. Anyway, works perfectly, looks like it was meant to be! Oh...the reason for the lock on this guitar is that I've taken to fingerstyle and anticipating I may get into a few altered tunings or at least drop D. With the locking tuners, no-friction nut and a solid "fixed bridge" this won't be a problem, but I couldn't be doing that if I needed the allen wrench when it's time to change. Also...if you break a string, you can lock it in tune in a flash!
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Post by D2o on Jun 21, 2010 8:41:46 GMT -5
I'll quote the late chrisK - because, even though I am taking his actual word slightly out of context, I still had the same reaction: Dang! That's some nice duds, Pete! Great pic as well. D2o
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Post by 4real on Jul 15, 2010 1:57:55 GMT -5
Almost finished my LP Kahler guitar...you can see one end in the post above...here's what I've done with the other end...possibly the most important part of staying in tune with any trem... "The Problem"... The Gibson style head pulls back at a fair angle (also a weak spot) and the strings also pull quite a bit to either side with the inner strings. "The Solution"... Firstly, Sperzel locking tuners in satin chrome (matches the knobs) A big truss rod cover made from 3mm aluminium and coated in some thin tortoiseshell (the tortoise and satin chrome is a bit of theme on this guitar) I built rollers out of the ball ends of some old strings and the shafts of some rivets...these will press fit into the holes...potentially the plate adds mass (and so sustain, etc), supports the nut and adds strength to the thinnest part of the neck. Here are the parts and roughed out plate... Anyway...the nut is a new white Tusq XL and is teflon impregnated. The tuning has been fairly stable (especially considering the nut is still not glued in while I'm tinkering with the setup and action) but certainly not 'good enough' and no comparison to my LSR tele...however, this 'solution' is a significant improvement. So...the basic idea is that these very smooth running rollers take off the side pressure from the nut meaning that it only needs to deal with the straight pull...much like a fender, the lean back eliminates any need for 'trees' of course, but do put on a little more 'pressure' on the nut... Mostly though, I like to add somthing unique to my projects and find some solutions...particularly if they look good and in this case I think it also adds a little bit of "bling" to another wise 'plain jane' head. The 'decoration' is a thin stainless steel bit of jewelry that I found and filed off the chain attachment and stuck on with double sided tape. A guitar just looks odd when the head is "blank" This "solution" may also be helpful even if a trem is not used on any guitar that has side pressure on the nut slots, this is the prime place that 'hangups' occur when tuning or even bending strings.
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Post by chuck on Jul 15, 2010 9:33:14 GMT -5
looks pretty cool to me ....
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Post by 4real on Jul 18, 2010 23:03:57 GMT -5
You know...as well as the roller things which seem to have completely fixed any tuning hassles in relation to the trem, the addition of this quite thick metal plate has had a subtle and welcome improvement in the tone of the instrument. It adds mass and stiffness and support behind the nut with very little weight being aluminium.
People into 'tweaking' may consider this something to try one way or another, though it is subtle, all these things do kind of add up...
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Neslo Tesloid (Nikola Tesla)
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Post by Neslo Tesloid (Nikola Tesla) on Aug 27, 2015 18:22:39 GMT -5
(I know this post is old, but)
Hey man, that is the nicest headstock mod I've seen.
Your use of string ends for rollers is genius. I found this site while looking for the allen wrench size used on my old Kahler locking nut (circa 1982), and found a lot of really useful information!
Returning to pitch was always the bane of vibrato users, but my temporary solution was to wiggle the bar gently and it usually returned to ballpark pitch. I love my Kahler, because it is a softer resistance compared to my Floyd Rose on a true Fender "Strat". The guitar I routed for the Kahler is a 1980 'Vantage', which was patterned after the old Alembic guitars, which have a maple block running from the head to the end-pin.
What is the correct size allen wrench for the old Kahler locking nuts?
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Post by Nikola Tesla on Aug 27, 2015 18:40:02 GMT -5
(Apologies for those line feeds between paragraphs. Something added several extras)
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Post by newey on Aug 27, 2015 22:24:47 GMT -5
Mr. Tesla- And, all those years we thought you were dead! As the unofficial greeter around here, I would give Nikola the usual welcome, but he seems to have de-registered himself right after posting, as he now shows up as a "guest".
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