sirholm
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Post by sirholm on May 30, 2008 6:43:31 GMT -5
First of all, I'm new to wiring and have little knowledge of the inside of electric guitars. My problem has emerged as a result of the restoration of an old Höfner Super Solid 3 with three 510 pickups and a rotary switch system back from the 60's.
The guitar has a very low output on the neck and middle pickup even though the bridge pickups has excellent output. I tried all the 'standard' checkups, all the wirings are intact and there are no loose screws. I have checked out the internet for similar problems but it seems like a rare problem as everything works fine except for the low output. Another symptom is insane feeding when the amp volume is turned up too much or when i use gain from pedals. It is not possible to adjust the height of the pickups as they are in chrome covers. I can upload pictures and old wiring diagrams if the problem is too advanced to solve from these informations.
Thx.
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Post by D2o on May 30, 2008 9:02:57 GMT -5
First of all, I'm new to wiring and have little knowledge of the inside of electric guitars. My problem has emerged as a result of the restoration of an old Höfner Super Solid 3 with three 510 pickups and a rotary switch system back from the 60's. The guitar has a very low output on the neck and middle pickup even though the bridge pickups has excellent output. I tried all the 'standard' checkups, all the wirings are intact and there is no loose screws. I have checked out the internet for similar problems but it seems like a rare problem as everything works fine except for the low output. Another symptom is insane feeding when the amp volume is turned up too much or when i use gain from pedals. It is not possible to adjust the height of the pickups as they are in chrome covers. I can upload pictures and old wiring diagrams if the problem is too advanced to solve from these informations. Thx. Hi, and welcome to GN2! First of all, what do you mean by very low output? As measured in ohms, or as heard relative to the one higher output pickup? It could be just the pickup height that you have alluded to. Insane feeding from gain is usually alleviated by the urthman method ;D (no, we won't send you that route until we've fully initiated you). Insane feeding from gain is usually alleviated by shielding, but since you are getting feedback from using a pedal I am not so sure that will work ... it won't hurt though. The low output could also suggest the possibility that one of the two low output pickups may not be stock, and is not the correct polarity for the position / one of the wires from one of the two low output pickups may be reversed. Feel free to upload away, but the fact that you get output suggests it's "wired". Pictures of the guts of your actual guitar (wiring) may be as beneficial as the wiring diagram. Let's wait and see if anyone else has some input about your output.
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Post by ashcatlt on May 30, 2008 10:43:29 GMT -5
The first thing to check when one pickup is quieter than another is the volume knobs. You got them all turned up? Then check pickup height. I'm not sure I believe there's no way to adjust them. Even if they weren't intended to be adjustable, I think we can come up with something.
Now, you said "feedback". I didn't hear you say noise, hum, buzz, or even hiss. I can't imagine anybody would ever complain about resonant string type feedback. So I'm assuming you're talking about a high-pitched squeal. Probably comes through most when you're not playing. Might change some depending on the orientation of the guitar itself. Does that sound about right?
If that's what you're talking about I don't think shielding will help much, except maybe accidentally. This problem is usually a sign that your pickups are microphonic. It's exactly what it sounds like. Your pickups are acting like microphones. We all know what happens when you stick a mic in front of a speaker, no?
This comes from poor potting. So get out your gloves, some soil, and that little shovel... (Sorry, apparently early mornings make for stupid jokes) Actually, the wire coils just aren't "stuck down" hard enough to the magnet. They vibrate some along with the air around them. That's exactly how a dynamic mic works, and that's where your squeal is likely coming from.* I've read about people re-potting pickups. Doesn't sound like fun to me, but I'm sure somebody around here could help you out if you want to tackle that project.
Show us some pictures.
*"never end a sentence in preposition." Well, I can't think of any modern English speaker who wouldn't look at me sideways for saying "from whence comes your squeal"...
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Post by ChrisK on May 30, 2008 11:21:36 GMT -5
You don't have to actually understand the following posts, just be assured that we can discern what is amiss within the guitar simply from the resistance measurements made at the output jack. Guitar Wiring Diagnosis or....... Discerning Paralleled ResistancesIf you're of a mind to self-study, here is a link to electronics theory. Help, I don't Understand Electronics...Set all volume and tone pots at their maximum setting (full-on). For each position on the selector switch, measure the DC resistance (I know that all resistance is DC, but there are some afoot that believe in AC resistance) at the output jack. The easiest way is to plug in a cable and touch the digital multimeter leads to the other end. (You can use the meter to see if the cable is any good first.) You should see values from 2,000 to 15,000 Ohms (a broad range, but I don't know your pickups). Use the lowest range that does not give an over-range indication ("OR" or "OL", or "1..." or blank). You will not get readings that are "nothing", "none", or "too much" (these are neither meaningful nor helpful terms). Write these down. Label the readings. Neck switch position ___ ___ ___ Bridge switch position If there is more than one switch, record ALL combinations of ALL switches.
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Post by ashcatlt on May 30, 2008 15:25:37 GMT -5
Is it something like this? That's a funky looking switch. I'd be willing to bet that turning the screws which hold the pickups into the pickgaurd would move them up and/or down.Edited because this picture shows there aren't any!?
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sirholm
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Post by sirholm on Jun 8, 2008 9:31:33 GMT -5
yes, that's the guitar Thanks for the replies, I have not had the time to test all your methods but it sounds to me that it could be the thing with polarity that doesn't match the position? I am still trying to get one of those digital ohm-meters as well as completely understanding all the electronic terms and how to get the readings. Until then, here is the photos of the innards and the diagram. and the funky looking switch: Once again, sorry for my poor ability to describe the problem and my bad terminology. thx
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Post by ChrisK on Jun 8, 2008 22:48:26 GMT -5
Sirholm, danke für die Abbildungen. Gegründet auf Ihrem Diagramm mit dem Stromkreis A1, scheint es, dass Sie einen Schalter der Position vier haben, der dies tut; 1. Brücke 2. Mittlere 3. Ansatz 4. Alle drei parallel Der Schalter mit dem Kondensator des nano Farads 5 ist ein Niederfrequenzschnitfilter. Der Schalter mit dem Kondensator des nano Farads 47 und Widerstand 8K2 ist ein Hochfrequenzschnitfilter. Der dritte Schalter wird benutzt, falls Ihre Aufnahmen zu laut sind. Testverfahren Drehen Sie das Volumen vollständig zu voll an. Stellen Sie alle drei Schalter in die Positionen, die im Diagramm gezeigt werden. Stellen Sie den Aufnahmenwählschalter in die Brückenposition. Messen Sie den Aufnahme DC-Widerstand an der Ausgangssteckfassung. Stellen Sie den Aufnahmenwählschalter in die mittlere Position. Messen Sie den Aufnahme DC-Widerstand an der Ausgangssteckfassung. Stellen Sie den Aufnahmenwählschalter in die Ansatzposition. Messen Sie den Aufnahme DC-Widerstand an der Ausgangssteckfassung. Stellen Sie den Aufnahmenwählschalter auf das ganz Dreiweg. Messen Sie den Aufnahme DC-Widerstand an der Ausgangssteckfassung. Melden Sie bitte die Resultate. /Testverfahren Wenn mein Deutsch nicht gut ist, tadeln Sie bitte die babeling Fische.
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Post by D2o on Jun 9, 2008 8:38:41 GMT -5
(in parts, babelled and then de-babelled) ..... Chris, finally I understand what you are saying!
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sirholm
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Post by sirholm on Jun 9, 2008 10:02:49 GMT -5
thanks for your helpful reply chris Unfortunately your translation made it a bit more difficult to understand what I should do, as I am from Denmark and my german is worse than my english. Perhaps your could repost it in english - or danish ?
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Post by ChrisK on Jun 9, 2008 15:15:09 GMT -5
I apologize, I had assumed that German would help. Based on your diagram with the A1 circuit, it appears that you have a four position switch that does this; 1. Bridge 2. Middle 3. Neck 4. All three in parallel The switch with the 5 nF cap is a low frequency cut filter. The switch with the 47 nF cap and 8K2 resistor is a high frequency cut filter. The third switch is used in case your pickups are too loud. test procedure Turn the volume all the way to full on. Set all three switches to the positions shown in the diagram. Set the pickup selector switch to the bridge position. Measure the pickup DC resistance at the output jack. Set the pickup selector switch to the middle position. Measure the pickup DC resistance at the output jack. Set the pickup selector switch to the neck position. Measure the pickup DC resistance at the output jack. Set the pickup selector switch to the all three position. Measure the combined pickup DC resistance at the output jack. Please post the results. The DC resistance measured for each pickup thru the entire circuit at the output jack will tell us much about the internal circuitry and its condition. A digital multi-meter is needed for this. What we need to determine is if there is an intermittent connection in the wiring or pickup coils. Since the bridge pickup works well thru the wiring to the output jack, if there is a switching/connection issue, it may be in the pickup selector switch or within the middle and neck pickups themselves. Does the feedback happen in all four switch positions? Now, the diagram doesn't actually match the pictures. While there are three switches and one volume control after the pickup selector switch, these all look the same in the pictures. Also, one of the cap values doesn't match the diagram and there are what looks like two inductors in the picture, but these may be capacitors or resistors. I can identify what I think are one resistor, one capacitor, and possibly a second capacitor. Since I don't know much about these switches/pots.......
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sirholm
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Post by sirholm on Jun 11, 2008 11:08:24 GMT -5
OK - got the multimeter. But, please give me an idiots guide how to measure this?? I have two wires coming from the multimeter.. should the other one touch the pickup, or what? Do i need to connect the guitar to the amplifier in order to get the DC-resistance readings? When i touch the pickups and the output jack the ohm-resistance measures zero. but of course it's impossible to read the DC resistance without any electrical current, or? I am a sucker for instructional videos
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Post by D2o on Jun 11, 2008 12:06:42 GMT -5
OK - got the multimeter. But, please give me an idiots guide how to measure this?? Hi sirholm, First, read this: guitarnuts2.proboards45.com/index.cgi?board=reference&action=display&thread=3186No, you should plug one probe into the COM socket and the other into the socket that includes V/ohms/m/A. Now set your meter to 20k ohms. No. You should test off of a patch cord. Plug the cord into the jack, touch the meter's probes to each other, which should set the meter to 0 if it's workig correctly, then touch the tip of the cord with one of the probes and the sleeve of the cord with the other probe and you should get a reading (5.0 or more for a single coil and in the area of 15.0 with a humbucker) And don't forget to turn up the volume.
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Post by ChrisK on Jun 11, 2008 12:24:01 GMT -5
Using Digital Multi-Meters Good. See above. I have two wires coming from the multimeter.. should the other one touch the pickup, or what? NO. It depends on WHERE you touched the meter test leads. If you touched one to the pickup COVER (shield) and one to the output jack barrel connection (the outer part), then you would read a very low resistance since these points are supposed to be connected. The pickup covers are electrically connected to the shielded cable coming from each pickup. What we care about is the resistance from the shield to the inner wire within each shielded cable from each pickup. In other words, we want to measure the resistance of the internal coil in each pickup. The schematic diagram shows three switches and one volume potentiometer. the pictures show four things that look the same. As a result, I have no idea what is really on the guitar. Can you take a picture of the control knobs up close and in good focus (use the macro setting)? This would help determine what they are controlling. Also, tell me about each one. Are they continuously turning or two position? Read the above linked links. Turn the volume control to full-on. The round rotary pickup selector switch has a group of 5 terminals and a group of 3 terminals. The picture shows the group of 3 terminals shorted together by the switch. Turn the switch knob until none (zed) of these 3 terminals are shorted together by the switch. You can tell this by looking at the switch. Measure the resistance from each of these 3 terminals to the 6-sided nut on the output jack.
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aaronator
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Post by aaronator on Aug 27, 2014 18:32:59 GMT -5
Dear ladies and gentlemen over here, First off I'm new here. Now the reason I'm here. I've spend the last 3 days measuring almost the same guitar. only its a hofner 175 from 1963.
its got the same problem only the thing is I've tried some other pickups in the neck and middle position from which i know they work just fine. Also low output again.
I've tried the out of phase thing and that's not it either. could it be the strange pickup switch because I've alsp bypassed the tone pots and that made it worse!!
So won't you please, please help me?!
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aaronator
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Post by aaronator on Aug 27, 2014 18:42:08 GMT -5
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Post by newey on Aug 27, 2014 23:23:32 GMT -5
aaronator-
Hello and Welcome to G-Nutz2!
I don't have an answer for you, but someone will be along with an idea. This is a puzzler- are you saying there was no difference whatsoever when you bypassed the tone pots? Ordinarily, that ought to raise the output level a bit even if the level was low to begin with.
When you say you've been measuring it, have you performed the measurement procedure that ChrisK described to Sirholm all those years ago? If so, we'll need your results posted.
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aaronator
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Post by aaronator on Aug 28, 2014 9:39:47 GMT -5
Well as normal when i bypassed the pots the output was a bit better and clearer because there is no resistance.
did the measuring again and seems like i did it wrong the other time. multimeter is set to 200k: Neck: 183,7 Middle: 182.5 Bridge:08,7(the one that's working!) All: 08,6(also working because of the bridge pickup offcourse)
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Post by Deleted on Aug 28, 2014 10:15:00 GMT -5
Well as normal when i bypassed the pots the output was a bit better and clearer because there is no resistance. did the measuring again and seems like i did it wrong the other time. multimeter is set to 200k: Neck: 183,7 Middle: 182.5 Bridge:08,7(the one that's working!) All: 08,6(also working because of the bridge pickup offcourse) 8.7KOhm seems a normal value. The other readings would indicate that the circuit is open somewhere ? bad soldering? also the 8.6K figure in parallel also attests to this. You should disconnect the pups before measuring their resistance. Don't measure them when they participate in some circuitry.
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aaronator
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Post by aaronator on Aug 28, 2014 11:23:14 GMT -5
Well just measured the pickups disconnected but don't know how because I'm getting no readings at all. I'm still on the 200k on my multimeter so am i doing something wrong here? Here are some gut shots: The loose pickup wire is for measuring. The other loose wires were from bypassing the pots and i was too lazy to desolder them. Anyway i think its the pickup switch
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aaronator
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Post by aaronator on Aug 28, 2014 11:25:24 GMT -5
Can't upload the pictures maybe this works
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Post by newey on Aug 28, 2014 11:32:11 GMT -5
With the pickups disconnected, and with one probe of the meter to each pickup wire (assuming they're 2 wire pickups), you should get some sort of resistance reading, somewhere between 1K and 20K. If not, there's a problem with the pickups.
Sent from my SM-G900V using proboards
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aaronator
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Post by aaronator on Aug 28, 2014 11:41:18 GMT -5
Allright no pickups are just fine. Middle:8,9 Neck:8,8 So wiring or pickup switch is the problem. Anybody here any experience with that strange switch?
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aaronator
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Post by aaronator on Aug 28, 2014 12:20:45 GMT -5
Yep its the pickups. Just got a guitar cable right in to the amp directly twisted the cables together and neck and middle pickup almost gave nothing. A shame because the sound of that bridge pickup is amazing.
So i took them apart and got the magnets out. They are now on the back of a speaker so that they maybe recharge. Wouldn't know how too rewind them so if this doesn't work I'm screwed because the new hofner pickups don't sound the same and other pickups don't fit.
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Post by ashcatlt on Aug 28, 2014 12:35:28 GMT -5
What does "no reading" mean? Is that infinity or zero (big difference)? Infinity is what it (should) reads when the probes are not touching anything. 0 is when they touch each other.
Unfortunately, it sounds like those pickups are broken open somewhere between the ends of the wires where you're measuring. Could be in the actual wires, could be where they meet the coil, or (much worse) somewhere in the coil itself. Can you get to the point where the wires to the outside world meet the actual coil wires? You might have to pry the metal covers off, which might be desoldering any wire that might connect the cover to the pickup wires. If you measure that point, you'll have a much better idea what you're dealing with.
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aaronator
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Post by aaronator on Aug 28, 2014 12:48:11 GMT -5
Yeah i tried that and the readings are just very low. Also the wire in the pickups and on the coils is very much almost green due corrosion. Have to get a rewind job done by somebody. Is there anybody here who lives in the Netherlands who does that?
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Post by b4nj0 on Aug 28, 2014 13:10:36 GMT -5
You could do far worse than to send it to Tim at Bare Knuckle Pickups in the UK. (no connection etc.)
e&oe
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aaronator
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Post by aaronator on Aug 28, 2014 13:27:59 GMT -5
Yeah i know bare knuckle great company. But I'm looking for something a bit local so that i can go there myself and meet the man or woman who is gonna touch the pickups of my first good vintage guitar.
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Post by newey on Aug 28, 2014 18:37:56 GMT -5
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aaronator
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Post by aaronator on Aug 28, 2014 18:43:44 GMT -5
Its the coloured one on that website
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