Must downtune 12-string?

[ashcatlt]

This is something I've never heard of before. My mother has recently picked up the guitar (!) and since she liked the sound of the 12-string, that's what she chose to start with. The yahoos she's been rocking with at her weekly jam session have been telling her that a twelve string is supposed to be tuned down a full step from standard in order to avoid warpage and other damage.

I've rejected the notion till now. Seems to me like the 12 string had ought to be tuned in such a way that one could just pick it up and play along with another guitar, without the need for a capo. I'm also thinking that a slight decrease in string guage (not a bad idea on a 12-string anyway) could accomplish the same thing.

A quick google turns up several mentions of this idea (including a wiki article) but we all know what that means...

So anybody around here have experience or opinions either way?

[D2o]

Ash,

Good for your mom! My dad recently bought a guitar too (although I seriously doubt he actually plays it).

I have never owned a 12 string, so I asked my brother who has owned one for over twenty years (no response yet, I'll let you know).

But I also did a little looking on the internet. It's a real mixed bag of opinions, isn't it!

Many say tune it down a half or a whole step, and claim that some luthiers have had to "fix" their warped necks because of standard tuning. But reading into it, I can't tell if that fix is just a truss rod adjustment and no further adjustment would be required, or what.

I found this comment, from an ovation forum ( www.ovationfanclub.com/cgi-bin/ubb/cgi/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=6;t=002846;p=0 ) to be interesting:

I've had my Martin 12 since 1970. It was my only guitar for 30+ years and I had it tuned to full concert pitch for 29 of them. It was one of the most beautiful sounding guitars I'd ever heard. It wasn't until I took it in to see if they could do anything about the high action that a luthier told me I should always tune it down at least 1/2 step if not 1 hole step. I had him do a neck reset and the guitar has never sounded good or played well since. I think I should have left it at full pitch and not let him touch it.

I don't know what tuning you should use, my gut says that it makes sense that it should be tuned down (or use lighter strings), but I'm getting the impression that it's more like "choose a tuning and stick to it".

[andy]

Well, as the extra strings will add tension to that of a normal set, tuning down would relieve that. Due to the extra effort in fretting the notes, it is not uncommon to use lighter strings on a 12-er anyway, so that should help reduce the effect, but whether a steel truss rod would have trouble coping in any case is unlikely! I guess more of the problems of neck warpage come from an unsuitable set-up than the sheer pull of the strings against a truss rod, or perhaps from the neck-to-body joint giving a bit, particularly acoustics.

I have heard of plenty of people tuning down, but I don't think there is an official way to tune.

[mlrpa]

I've always had a 12 string or 2 in my personal stable. I've never once heard that nonesense about tuning it a 1/2 or a whole step down! 12 strings in general have a thicker neck then 6 strings in order to accomplish the string spacing, and the string tension. Go with lighter strings. (Martin makes a 10 gauge set for 12 stringers.)

Just the very thought of detuning it below concert pitch sickens me.

[ashcatlt]

I was playing with this tension calculator a little bit. Who knows how accurate it is. What I got from it, though, was that decreasing string guage reduces tension a bit further than down-tuning. Doing both would have obvious results, I guess. Neither will get it anywhere near the tension of a 6 string set.

[andy]

Ashcatlt,

I know I will geek-out on that thing some day! Pondering the exact differences in tension between different string gauges/tunings have literally kept me awake at night before! I sounds silly to say it, but I was messing around with tuning both a guitar and bass to 'B' standard at different points, and the details really started to play on my mind. The calculator will, no doubt, get a good work out next time I get all OCD about something like that.

Jul 3, 2008 20:25:15 GMT -5 mlrpa said:

Just the very thought of detuning it below concert pitch sickens me.

What even a bit of 'dropped D'? Surely thats a bit OTT? (See rest of post above

[gitpiddler]

The Taylor's neck can be unbolted and adjusted with laser-cut shims after the top gets some belly to it. The neck wood itself dovetails into the top and end block, with the fingerboard covering it.

[mlrpa]

I have no problems with alt tunings what-so-ever. I do have problems with that nonesense that standard tuning will damage the instrument. They've only been around for about 400 years or so in the standard tunings. Yesh, that damage line o'cr*p gets me annoyed! (I need more coffee.)

[sumgai]

Jul 7, 2008 11:05:33 GMT -5 mlrpa said:

I do have problems with that nonesense that standard tuning will damage the instrument. They've only been around for about 400 years or so in the standard tunings.

Pretty much agreed. The art of luthierie⁽¹⁾ has indeed been around that long, and probably much longer, in one form or another. However, the art of using metal (steel) strings has not been around but maybe a century or so. That little "invention" led to a whole new school in craftsmanship, and it did take awhile to sort it all out...... say, perhaps 30 years.

Pretty much for most folks, when the manufacturer says "Do this", you can believe it. Up until the advent of the Harvard MBA in America's business scene, we could rely on those statements as if they were from the horse's mouth, pretty much a given fact. Of course, there were still Luddites aboonding aboot the land, and sure enough, Harvard also gave us weaselslawyers to counter the MBA's. You can guess which is worse, the disease or the cure!

Yesh, that damage line o'cr*p gets me annoyed!

You refer of course to those very same Luddites. Well, you're right to get annoyed - if it weren't for them "all progress is bad" asshelmets, we'd all be settling in on the Moon by now, living the "240,000 mile high life".⁽²⁾

However, I must admit that, for myself, I tend to err on the side of caution. Just because 10,000 other players's guitars don't warp at full tension (standard tuning) doesn't mean that mine won't warp! When I had a 12 string (a Framus, as I recall, in 1968 or thereaboots), I kept it tuned down a half-step. But I don't "encourage" others to do that, I let everyone figure out for themselves what works best for them.

HTH




sumgai


1. According to several on-line dictionaries, the word can be spelled either with or without the first 'i', as in Lutherie or Luthierie..... either way seems to be acceptable, at least at this point in time.

2. Correctly speaking, that would be 238,855 miles high, but who's gonna carp about a 150 miles amoungst friends, eh?

[newey]

2. Correctly speaking, that would be 238,855 miles high, but who's gonna carp about a 150 miles amoungst friends, eh?

That's a mean distance since the orbit is not circular. So rounding is not only okay, your rounded estimate is probably equal to the actual value at some point.

Your orbit may vary . . . .

[newey]

EDIT: And, before this thread degenerates into silliness on my account, let me say that, while I have never owned a 12 string (yet . . .), I have played with many friends over the years who have loved and nourished their various 12 string Martins, Guilds, etc. I've heard lots of tales of woe, mostly of the road rash variety, but I've never heard of detuning to "save the neck". And most of these old 12s are still going strong 30-plus years later.

As with any acoustic, I would think stable temps and humidities during storage probably have more to do with neck longevity than any other factor.

[andy]

Jul 7, 2008 13:46:04 GMT -5 sumgai said:

asshelmets

Im trying hard to picture one of those...

[sumgai]

andy,

asshelmets

Im trying hard to picture one of those...

Not hard at all - just picture someone looking out at the world through their glass belly-button..........

Saves me having to either find yet another animated smilie, or posting an unsavory picture that would be definitely NSFW. ;D

HTH


sumgai

[flateric]

I've owned a good quality Japanese 12 string acoustic for, erm, 25 years now, always kept it in standard tuning, no neck problems, only the high G breaks a lot when I tune up.
WHoever makes 12 string guitars must make the necks strong enough to cope with the forces expected - thus only the poorly made ones would benefit from down-tuning. Thats my 10c worth for this morning.

[sydsbluesky]

I keep my Cort at standard.

In addition to sometimes having thicker truss rods, all 12 string necks are wider than standard, meaning a bit more cell wall between the heel and the head.

I keep mine set with lights. Love that guitar.

Cort Earth series 200-12. Cheap. Very nice. Came with a hard case! The case is sorta crappy, but it's a case... 350 out the door. Doubt I'll ever upgrade it.

[newey]

I think we've pretty well debunked the "12 String Tune-down" legend.
On a somewhat related subject, there is a myth, supposedly applicable for all acoustics, to slack the strings before storing the guitar- done for the same "neck life" reasons as detuning 12-strings.

This was thoroughly debunked by Rob Magargal Of Taylor Guitars, in the latest issue of "Wood & Steel", Taylor guitar's in-house rag.

www.taylorguitars.com/woodandsteel/issues/ws_summer_2009.pdf

***Note to dialup users: That link is to the .pdf of the magazine, so it's about 3.3MB to download

The article starts on page 9.

He posits that the myth goes back to pre-trussrod days when neck stability was more of an issue. While detuning a step or so won't hurt anything, he states that slacking the strings before storage may actually damage the neck rather than preserve it, since the guitar is engineered to have the tension of the truss rod and that of the strings in counterbalance.

While Taylor's mag is, predictably, filled with pro-Taylor propaganda, it also has some good articles, and is glossy and very well laid out. Worth a look, anyway.

[sydsbluesky]

Guitars last the best when treated with consistency. Consistent temperature, humidity, tensions and all that good sort of stuff.

That same goes for most things made from non-living or dead materials.

Most non-living or dead materials are actually used in their individual settings for their ability to resist change. Being bent, being heated, being scraped, being hit, being banged around.

"Can withstand pressures of..."
"Can withstand temperatures of..."

Same goes for any guitar. It can take a little variation, but no machine likes change.

For a guitar to require a reduction in tension when not in use, it is easy to then say that the guitar was never designed/built to handle that tension properly.

The damage that can take place from the slacking of strings can also take place from leaving a guitar in a severely altered tuning, so word of warning to people that like switching between standard and drop A#... Might wanna buy a baritone!

I actually have an acoustic that is always in alternate tunings. It's really cheap. I use it to fiddle with, and then if I want to get serious and play live or record, I detune my main to play.

[Air-Guitar]

Belated +1 to ashcatlt for the link to the tension calculator ! Excellent !!

-- Jim

Disclaimer: I keep my [feather weight, but highly responsive] mahogany Martin D-16 six string guitar strung with Medium guage strings (prefer the darker sound), and downtuned a full step to DGCFAD (better fit to my limited vocal range, without having to transpose to new chord shapes, or capo +10 :-).

And while I'm confessing my sins here, I must also admit to having worked out some years ago by hand (from the Physics equation for string tension) the net effect of the heavier string gauge combined with the downtuning, for my own peace-of-mind relative to Martin & Co's recommendation to use "Light Gauge only" on the D-16. I didn't know the string mass per unit length, but for my purposes (simply wishing to compare the relative tension from Lights at standard pitch to Mediums a full step down), I felt justified assuming mass per unit length was proportional to string diameter squared.

My concern was not with neck warpage (given the truss rod to counteract string tension on the neck), but rather tension at the bridge causing warpage of the top. (( I've seen this happen with cheaper guitars -- a 6-string with a laminated top [medium guage strings, standard pitch], and a 12-string with a solid top [light gauge strings, standard pitch] ...)). No desire to reopen debate, but I agree with the advice not to assume cheap / no-name guitars can withstand the test of string tension over time as well as those from famous makers.

[lynxpilot]

With zero experience, but a little research lately because I just ordered a 12-string, I suspect the entire problem lies in the bridge connection and some will 'belly-up' after a while. The fix, if warpage were an issue, would be involved with the bridge and soundboard, and for most guitars would be too expensive to justify. Though I've not seen an account yet of one that was ruined by belly-up, I'm ordering the best inexpensive 12-string I can find and if need be I'll replace it after it gets warped into oblivion. I've heard some folks recommend buying one with a 'trapeze' bridge connection. I'm not sure what that is, but when I build my first 12-string, I suspect what I come up with will be something like it.

[4real]

It's not the neck you have to worry about...it's teh belly going belly up!

My sister had a decent Yamaha 12 string and it got a bad belly up going which made the thing virtually unplayable in the end...that's the good thing about the taylor (or fender) bolt on neck idea...I have a bolt on neck on my old Jap epiphone acoustic that's great like that.

So...of course light strings...but if all those strings are pulling up on the top from the bridge anchor points...eventually a bit of warp-age seems likely. Tuning down a step seems like a decent solution, capo to play standard...and easier fretting with a lower tension...and a deeper rich sound perhaps...

So...not a stupid or sickening idea really IMHO. Of course guitars should be made to take the tension, but there is an awful lot on a very thin piece of wood...stiffening that up for mechanical purposes alone would seriously affect the mechanical way the top vibrates and so the sound.

You don't see a tailpiece 12 or even 6 on a flatop too often...you'd be tough getting the down pressure on the bridge that you can get on an arch top...besides, they the way the bridge works and the top moves would be radically different.

If you don't mind the sound of tuning down and perhaps a capo and all that, it might be a wise move. Constant string tension isn't going to make it go belly up quick...but eventually that thin wood is likely to move and without neck tilt adjustment...it's virtually impossible or impractically to fix.

Another interesting option...if you have a mind to...that I've always had designs on perhaps making...is a 9 string. Double only the top lighter strings and you get the jangle of a kind of 12 on top and the definition in the bass of single strings...just remove 3 strings when changing them and see if you like that sound perhaps. Good for alternating bass kinds of things with finger picking and easier to stay in tune...LOL.

[BlackAngusYoung]

These reason to keep them in tune do make sense I think.
What about changing strings, though? Some people suggest never taking all the strings off but I heard that was a myth. From this thread, I'd think it does make sense to always have string tension. Or is it that it doesn't matter either way for the time it takes to change the strings?

The article says it doesn't even need to be detuned on a plane, but I've heard it suggested before just because the guitar might get thrown around. It something cracked, it'd be better off without string tension.

[irwired]

I read that you take the tension off the neck to reduce the danger of damage to the headstock due to impact stress. I did a lot of reading on traveling with guitars last fall.

Cheers
IRW

[yug]

This is a subject near and dear to my heart. Sort of. 12-strings have always been a love/hate relationship with me. As best I can recollect I've owned 7 of those *%&!#* things. I have a couple of favorites, one being a 12-string neck from an acoustic that was a bolt-on that I hung on a bass guitar body. It wasn't pretty but it had the best action of any 12 I've owned.
My first 12-string had a badly warped neck. You couldn't play above the 3rd fret. Not knowing any luthiers to talk to, I decided that tuning down was the best option. It just became an idiosyncracy of mine own. I tuned all 12-strings down a full step. It did impress lesser players with my ability to "transpose on the fly".
I recently repaired a 12-string rescued from a pawnshop with a lot of help from the good folks here. I'm pleased to say I keep it in standard tuning without relying on xtra light strings. It's easy on the fingers(well, as easy as a 12-string gets), stays in tune and hasn't cracked the neck off yet.

From what I understand, the neck tension on a mandolin is quite a bit higher than a 12-string. I don't believe mandolins use truss rods...

yug...

[gitpiddler]

With this being the only 12-string thread in sight, I will announce the completion of a prototype compensated bridge project on the Indy Rush 12. I came across a 2010 ad for McPherson's first 12, with a wider, compensated saddle, plus a lower and higher saddle included. A Baggs RTSII pickup with batt and endpin was used.

D'Addario 12-string sets have the relative tensions printed on the box, around 249 lbs. total at pitch. That'll give anything a little belly;)

My question: Any suggestions for 12-string specific pickups? The Pickup forum seems to focus on electrics.

I've spent the last month dialing in this 3yo bridge on a 20+yo virgin home build. The Martin silver coated with a 10 octave G-string and 11.5 E's just went on it and the Taylor this week, tuned to STANDARD. The Fishman would sound good, but the notch controls are a little wiggly and easily hit.