Dull guitar tone.... need help fixin'

[toneskr]

Hi guys, I recently found this site and read over some of the threads dealing with guitar tone, capacitors, pots and such. I learned quite a bit about this stuff in the last few days, but I'm still very new to this all.

My dilemna is this. I recently bought a PRS SE singlecut(their import model) and the tone seemed like it lacked 'bite' on the top end with the tone pot turned up and very muddy with it rolled off. I bought a JB/Jazz pickup combo and it helped some, but it still lacks the sharp 'bite' I'm looking for.

My other guitars, including a USA Prs, while using the same amp and effect settings can really sing and scream with good pinch harmonics when needed. This new one can't do it. Many folks find the JB too 'trebley' in their guitars, but that's definitely not the case here. I like the guitar otherwise, so I thought I'd look toward the pots and caps and see if I could effect some good change in its tone.

This guitar has the two humbuckers I mentioned, 1 500ohm volume pot, 1 500ohm tone pot, and a simple 3 way switch. The capacitor on the tone pot is an orange ceramic disc type and if I'm reading it correctly, looks like it has 181 written on it.... with a B, perhaps,(hard to see) above the 181.

What value cap is this? .00181? .0181? .181? Something else?

The volume pot has a dark orange rectangular-shaped cap soldered in, but I can see no value markings on it at all.

I'm thinking about replacing all the pots, caps, and switch with CTS's and orange drops, or something similar, and I was basically wondering what value the current tone cap is and if I'm correct in thinking I need to go down in value to get rid of the mud and get some good harmonics out of this thing. How far should I go for starters?

What 'kind' of cap would be best suited to my needs? I can try a couple different types and values, that's not a problem, I just want to be sure I'm headed in the right direction before I start ordering this stuff.

Thanks for any help you can offer. I really appreciate it.

Great site, by the way. Very informative.

[D2o]

Hi toneskr, and WELCOME! to GN2

Your setup sounds good ... on paper.

I don't know what the 181 on the capacitor means ... even with a picture I may not know, but it should be a .047uF capacitor on the tone pot. You may strike a happy compromise at .033uF. Either way, your inclination of an Orange Drop is just fine.

The capacitor on the volume pot may be a treble bleed (EDIT: see JohnH's explanation below - thank you, John). Can you post a picture?

Using pots of less than 500K is not going to be good for HBs, as it will rob you of more of the treble that is so dear in this case.

Post a pic if you can, but stick around for more input.

D2o

[JohnH]

The pots sound like they are 500k = 500,000 Ohms. Those values should be OK, no need to change but if you want to test something, disconnect one end of the tone pot which puts less load on the pickups. If that works, we can investigate a no-load tone pot as on some Fenders.

With both controls at max, the caps don't have much effect. Seems you have a tone cap, and probably a treble bleed cap that keeps treble from being further reduced when you turn volume down.

If the pickups are quite hot (probably higher inductance - which is the property of a coil), then they may be more affected by the length of the guitar cord as compared to more vintage sounding ones with lower inductance. What length of cord do you use? You can try a shorter one. Definitely if you are using 20', try a 10'. As a test, you can even try a few licks with using a very short patch cord. If that helps the sound, there are ways of making a practical version of it with a buffer circuit, or low capacitance cable so its worth trying.

There's also changes to tone by adjusting pickup height.

So there's a few simple things to try before deciding to make big changes.

John

[toneskr]

Thanks for the replies guys. I tried raising and lowering the pickups with minimal effect and I'm using a Planet Waves Custom Pro cable, 15' long. I tried a couple other cords with no noticable change in tone... though I haven't tried a short one. I have some 3 footers, I'll try them.

I'll try to get some pictures of the inside of the control cavity too.

[ashcatlt]

According to this it's a 180pf cap. The last number tells you how many zeroes to put after the other 2. Sometimes there's only 1 other number, but it works the same on these ceramics.

[toneskr]

Ok, that makes sense to me. And thanks for that site, it was very infomative and I bookmarked it.

So, let me see if I have this right. If my tone cap is 180pF, that means its value in micro farads is .00018uF. That's aweful dang small already isn't it? Especially considering the fact that the most popular tone caps are around .022 - .047uF .....and mine is .00018? Holy CRAP, that's a huge difference ain't it?

And, since small caps cut off less of the highs when the tone pot is turned back, why's mine so dark and muddy, that's what I'm wonderin'.

Regardless, I rarely roll the tone pot all the way back anyhow, so that's not my main concern. My main concern is the highs/harmonics when the tone pot is turned up. And from what I'm reading, the tone cap has minimal effect at "10" and maximum effect at "1", I was just hoping a different tone cap would help me 'some'.

So, since my tone cap is so small already, assuming the above to be correct, should I look elsewhere? Should I remove it altogether and try it? What about the volume cap? What effect does it have on tone when both volume and tone knobs are at "10"?

I looked morre closely with a flashlight and magnifying glass and DID find markings on the volume cap. It reads: 2A223J




How about the pots? Could cheap pots rob highs?

[toneskr]

Ok, I'm an idiot

I had the pots confused, I thought the volume was the tone and vice versa, got screwed up when I flipped the thing over and around. LOL

Once I found the markings on the other cap and figured the value using the chart ashcatlt supplied, I grew suspicious and ran back out and confirmed, yep, I'm an idiot..... So the 2A223J is the TONE cap and tells me it is a .022uf cap, or 22,000pF, which is normal. And I could probably go smaller if I wanted. That's cool.

Man, that's embarassing

I think I'll probably order a variety of caps, remove the one that's in it, and do some testing.

[D2o]

Oct 10, 2008 8:12:25 GMT -5 toneskr said:

Ok, I'm an idiot

I had the pots confused, I thought the volume was the tone and vice versa, got screwed up when I flipped the thing over and around. LOL

Once I found the markings on the other cap and figured the value using the chart ashcatlt supplied, I grew suspicious and ran back out and confirmed, yep, I'm an idiot..... So the 2A223J is the TONE cap and tells me it is a .022uf cap, or 22,000pF, which is normal. And I could probably go smaller if I wanted. That's cool.

Man, that's embarassing

I think I'll probably order a variety of caps, remove the one that's in it, and do some testing.

No, man ...

Embarrassing is when you ask for a bunch of help on why you aren't getting any output, only to discover that you had the volume set at "0" the whole time. One of my friends did just that!

(Okay, it was me that did that )

Yes, you could try some different values, but it's likely that you are going to end up somewhere between 0.022 and 0.047.

One method of experimenting with caps would be to solder some 12" leads in the place where the legs of the capacitor normally go and hang them out of the guitar (between the body and pickguard, or between the body and control cavity cover). That way you could hook up as many different caps as you want, externally - by soldering the legs to the leads, so you won't have to go back in each time.

Eventually, when you are satisfied with your selection, you desolder the leads and solder in the selected cap.

EDIT: Actually, if you have a control cavity cover on the back of the guitar, I suppose you don't even need to put it back on until you are finished experimenting.

I'm glad you discovered your orientation error and the meaning of the cap values ... two good lessons in one day. Bonus!

Happy experimenting!

D2o

P.S. I can't tell from the picture ... the other leg of that tone cap is soldered to the tone pot case, right?

[toneskr]

Yes, it appears soldered there solidly. It was plainly visible until I bent the cap over to try to make the numbers on it visible for the picture.

I saw on a site somewhere a couple days ago where somebody had 8 or 10 caps of various types and values glued to a card with their leads overhanging the edge. Their info was written on the card next to them. To test these various caps, the original cap was removed from the guitar and two 6-8" wires were soldered in it's place. These wires have alligator clips on their ends and then it's a quick and simple process to clip them onto the leads of the various test caps to determine which sounds best.

I might still try this, but, I just checked all my other humbucker equipped guitars and they ALL have 500Kohm pots, 223 caps, and like I said, they all sound better. Hmmmm, what the heck.

[D2o]

I saw on a site somewhere a couple days ago where somebody had 8 or 10 caps of various types and values glued to a card with their leads overhanging the edge. Their info was written on the card next to them. To test these various caps, the original cap was removed from the guitar and two 6-8" wires were soldered in it's place. These wires have alligator clips on their ends and then it's a quick and simple process to clip them onto the leads of the various test caps to determine which sounds best.

I recall that too, and liked the idea - do you happen to have the internet address?

I might still try this, but, I just checked all my other humbucker equipped guitars and they ALL have 500Kohm pots, 223 caps, and like I said, they all sound better. Hmmmm, what the heck.

ALL? Yeah, what the heck?

D2o

[JohnH]

The 180pF will be for treble bleed. But before you go all out on caps, theres still two ideas from earlier posts:

1 Disconnect one end of the tone pot, or tone cap. This will add more brightness than just changing the cap
2 Try a really short lead

If these help, then they can be turned into practical solutions, if not, then new pickups may be indicated

John

[toneskr]

Thanks for your help, John.

I tried a 3' cord and noticed no difference.

I disconnected the lead to the tone pot terminal. Very minimal/barely recognizable difference.... maybe my imagination.

No sense changing the tone's capacitor then, right?

I checked the resistance of the tone pot and it goes to 483k ohms, is that good enough? normal?

[newey]

I checked the resistance of the tone pot and it goes to 483k ohms, is that good enough? normal?

That's less than a 5% variance from the rated 500K, so that's very good. Many mfrs use components with 10% or 20% tolerances. At 20%, a 500K pot could be anywhere from 400K to 600K and still pass the QC std!

[toneskr]

Ok, that's good. Thank you.