zuee
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Post by zuee on Oct 20, 2008 9:31:42 GMT -5
Well, I've been practicing guitar for about a year now (I'm no pro, but I pick up how to do things fast because I already played piano for 10 years), and I LOVE to make things with my own hands. My 16th birthday is coming up in a few months (January 1st), and I'm planning to buy this kit (and a different neck and new pickups): byoguitar.com/Guitars/Electric-Guitar-Kit---RG-Style__BYO-RG.aspx. Not only that, I want to add on more tone options. I checked out the wiring diagrams on your site and others, took some ideas, and put it into one wiring diagram. Here's what I came up with: img517.imageshack.us/my.php?image=wiringdigramdr9.jpgI just wanted to know if this would work out. If you don't have the time to follow the wires, you don't have to. Some background on the diagram: The pickups are 2 quad rails and one dual rail. The first 3 switches (S1, S2, S3) are Series/Coil-Cut/Parallel switches. The second set (S4, S5, S6) are Phase-in/Off/Phase-out switches. This set is technically the pickup selection, I remember looking at this from your site. The DPDT switch that is by itself (S7) is a solo-switch. The SPDT switch (S8) is a Magnetic/Piezo pickup switch. The piezo is just a regular piezo found in many electronics, nothing fancy. I just wanted a lot of tone options so I added it in. The capacitor value is low and the pot values are high because the pickups are scorching HOT. I might swap the quad rails with 2-coil humbuckers instead, but I would definitely buy the dual rail since it's a humbucker. It would be great if you could help me. Thanks in advance!
Update 10/20 -
I forgot to add two more connections in the previous diagram . Here is the fixed version : img525.imageshack.us/my.php?image=wiringdiagramfn9.jpg
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Post by D2o on Oct 20, 2008 9:59:31 GMT -5
Hi zuee, and WELCOME to GN2! Coming up to age 16, eh? Wow ... good times. One of us will have time to go over your impressive first efforts at some point. In the meantime, I just wanted to welcome you and correct your link to byoguitar. D2o
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Post by pete12345 on Oct 20, 2008 11:26:29 GMT -5
One slight problem... the middle/bridge pickups have no way of connecting to the jack Assuming you wanted to combine them in parallel (the only way your in/off/out phase switches would work properly) you would need to link the top left terminal of all three phase switches together. Other than that, looks great! Seems like it would be simple to use despite all those switches. Oh, and welcome to the nutzhouse! ;D Pete
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Post by JohnH on Oct 20, 2008 14:45:50 GMT -5
welcome! your diagram is very clear, and so easy for us to check. A few more suggestions: 1M is a large value for the pots, its OK but most would use 500k. The 1M's will give you a bit more brightness at max settings though, in exchange for some further loss of treble as you roll down the volume. maybe just change the volume to 500k Your tone cap, at 0.001uF is very small, - its not wrong, but most would use 0.01 to 0.022. Your value will be quite interesting at minimum tone setting however - you could get a few values and try what you prefer, since they only cost a few cents You may have seen my thread on piezo pickups. guitarnuts2.proboards45.com/index.cgi?board=wiring&action=display&thread=3633&page=1They really do work, but Im finding it essential to have active electronics on-board to adjust the tone and level . Without that, it sounds very boxy and low volume. It will work, but an amp setting that is good for the magnetic pickups won't sound good with a direct piezo. cheers John
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Post by ChrisK on Oct 20, 2008 18:08:54 GMT -5
I'm not sure what "scorching hot" means "specifically", but low capacitor values and large pot values will minimize the effect of the tone control (to practically nothing) and exacerbate the high frequencies from the pickups. I fully agree with JohnH on his values. That was a fairly impressive schematic that you came up with this afternoon, what I want to know is what are you planning to come up with tomorrow morning? ;D ;D ;D
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zuee
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Post by zuee on Oct 20, 2008 18:18:01 GMT -5
welcome! your diagram is very clear, and so easy for us to check. A few more suggestions: 1M is a large value for the pots, its OK but most would use 500k. The 1M's will give you a bit more brightness at max settings though, in exchange for some further loss of treble as you roll down the volume. maybe just change the volume to 500k Your tone cap, at 0.001uF is very small, - its not wrong, but most would use 0.01 to 0.022. Your value will be quite interesting at minimum tone setting however - you could get a few values and try what you prefer, since they only cost a few cents You may have seen my thread on piezo pickups. guitarnuts2.proboards45.com/index.cgi?board=wiring&action=display&thread=3633&page=1They really do work, but Im finding it essential to have active electronics on-board to adjust the tone and level . Without that, it sounds very boxy and low volume. It will work, but an amp setting that is good for the magnetic pickups won't sound good with a direct piezo. cheers John Oh, these cap and pots values are like this because it's what recommended for the quad rails. It's a humbucker with two smaller humbuckers, so it has 4 coils. It's resistance is around 23k ohms. If I was to not buy the quads, and instead buy two-coil pickups, I know that I would use 500k pots and a capacitor with a higher mfd value.
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zuee
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Post by zuee on Oct 20, 2008 18:21:52 GMT -5
One slight problem... the middle/bridge pickups have no way of connecting to the jack Assuming you wanted to combine them in parallel (the only way your in/off/out phase switches would work properly) you would need to link the top left terminal of all three phase switches together. Other than that, looks great! Seems like it would be simple to use despite all those switches. Oh, and welcome to the nutzhouse! ;D Pete Oh my God! That was what I was forgetting! I had a feeling something was missing. My drawn rough draft of the wiring has what you mentioned, but I totally forgot to draw it on this image! Thanks for pointing that out, I'm going to fix the wiring.
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zuee
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Post by zuee on Oct 20, 2008 18:32:55 GMT -5
Hi zuee, and WELCOME to GN2! Coming up to age 16, eh? Wow ... good times. One of us will have time to go over your impressive first efforts at some point. In the meantime, I just wanted to welcome you and correct your link to byoguitar. D2o Thanks for your help! Didn't notice the link was bad.
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Post by ChrisK on Oct 20, 2008 20:36:43 GMT -5
Your design looks fine.
While you can use 1 M pots, the correct cap value for tone, if you are indeed scaling things for four coils in series (the quads), would be likely 0.01uF (10nF) and not 0.001uF.
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zuee
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Post by zuee on Oct 20, 2008 21:10:29 GMT -5
Your design looks fine. While you can use 1 M pots, the correct cap value for tone, if you are indeed scaling things for four coils in series (the quads), would be likely 0.01uF (10nF) and not 0.0 01uF. I probably just read the information wrong or I don't remember if it's o.o1 or o.oo1. So it looks fine? Great! I guess I'll stick with this wiring for my new upcoming guitar. Unless I cannibalize my guitar that I have right here now.
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Post by newey on Oct 20, 2008 22:13:32 GMT -5
Zuee-
Nice work on the diagram. If you want to simplify things a bit, you can eliminate one phase switch (your choice of which one), as two phase switches will give you all possible OOP combos of 3 pickups. It will work fine as is, but all 3 phase switches set to "phase out" will be exactly the same as all 3 set to "phase in". Since you are using DPDT on-off-on switches, you would lose the "off" setting if you eliminate the 3rd phase switch totally, but you could replace it with a simple on-off switch, thereby minimizing the number of connections and maximizing reliability.
Just a thought.
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zuee
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Post by zuee on Oct 21, 2008 0:37:27 GMT -5
Zuee- Nice work on the diagram. If you want to simplify things a bit, you can eliminate one phase switch (your choice of which one), as two phase switches will give you all possible OOP combos of 3 pickups. It will work fine as is, but all 3 phase switches set to "phase out" will be exactly the same as all 3 set to "phase in". Since you are using DPDT on-off-on switches, you would lose the "off" setting if you eliminate the 3rd phase switch totally, but you could replace it with a simple on-off switch, thereby minimizing the number of connections and maximizing reliability. Just a thought. I was thinking of replacing one of the phase on-off-on switches with an on-off because I read that there's only need for two for all the combination. After thinking, I think it would make sense to replace the phase switch for the middle pickup, that way the everything is symmetrical .
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Post by pete12345 on Oct 21, 2008 3:51:46 GMT -5
Getting rid of one switch would allow you to fit the pickup selectors and phase switches quite neatly in the space normally taken up by the 5-way switch (you're building a strat, right?) The solo switch and magnetic/piezo switch could be on push-pull pots (the logical layout being the solo switch on the volume) so you would pull up the volume knob to bypass the controls, and pull up a tone to switch to the piezo pickup.
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zuee
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Post by zuee on Oct 21, 2008 9:05:33 GMT -5
Getting rid of one switch would allow you to fit the pickup selectors and phase switches quite neatly in the space normally taken up by the 5-way switch (you're building a strat, right?) The solo switch and magnetic/piezo switch could be on push-pull pots (the logical layout being the solo switch on the volume) so you would pull up the volume knob to bypass the controls, and pull up a tone to switch to the piezo pickup. Do you know where I could buy DPDT Push/Pull Pots? I can only find ones that are miniature pots and I don't know how that will effect the sound.
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Post by ChrisK on Oct 21, 2008 18:39:38 GMT -5
These will work best on the smaller notes.Oh all right, I'm sorry, electron's don't lie (or care). Virtually all DPDT PP pots that I've seen over the past many years are small (17mm pot diameter).
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zuee
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Post by zuee on Oct 22, 2008 2:00:22 GMT -5
These will work best on the smaller notes.Oh all right, I'm sorry, electron's don't lie (or care). Virtually all DPDT PP pots that I've seen over the past many years are small (17mm pot diameter). So, I guess there's no negative points about using smaller pots?
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Post by newey on Oct 22, 2008 5:17:32 GMT -5
Size doesn't matter. Quality, however, does. The good ones (whether of the 17mm or the 24mm size) will operate more smoothly and will last for more cycles. Since the difference in cost is minimal, you might as well use the good stuff.
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zuee
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Post by zuee on Oct 22, 2008 8:36:20 GMT -5
Size doesn't matter. Quality, however, does. The good ones (whether of the 17mm or the 24mm size) will operate more smoothly and will last for more cycles. Since the difference in cost is minimal, you might as well use the good stuff. Thanks! I'm going to make another diagram with two push pull pots. Let's see how this turns out.
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Post by newey on Oct 22, 2008 12:06:43 GMT -5
A push/pull pot is simply a DPDT on-on switch that's been mated to the bottom of a pot. Graphically speaking, there's no need to change your diagram just because you're using push/pull pots instead of a separate DPDT and a pot- the resulting diagram will look essentially the same.
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zuee
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Post by zuee on Oct 22, 2008 20:19:24 GMT -5
A push/pull pot is simply a DPDT on-on switch that's been mated to the bottom of a pot. Graphically speaking, there's no need to change your diagram just because you're using push/pull pots instead of a separate DPDT and a pot- the resulting diagram will look essentially the same. No, I meant I was going to make a different design with a different way of functioning. I just finished a rough draft where the DPDT switch from the pots have control over phasing. The volume DPDT will control the neck pickup and the tone will control the bridge. And do you think it is worth it to add a piezo with a small buffer preamp circuit board?
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Post by newey on Oct 22, 2008 20:29:11 GMT -5
Well, you've read JohnH's thread thereon, he seems to be liking it. Although he did note that some phasing issues with the piezo did arise, once the buffer circuit was in play. Sounds like he ultimately got it sorted, but given all the phasing going on in your design, you might want to give some thought to how that's all going to mesh.
You might need to add that 3rd phase switch back in- for the piezo! ;D
Also, he had to lose the trem springs to install the buffer, so if dive-bombing is your thing that may also be an issue for you.
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zuee
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Post by zuee on Oct 23, 2008 1:15:17 GMT -5
Well, you've read JohnH's thread thereon, he seems to be liking it. Although he did note that some phasing issues with the piezo did arise, once the buffer circuit was in play. Sounds like he ultimately got it sorted, but given all the phasing going on in your design, you might want to give some thought to how that's all going to mesh. You might need to add that 3rd phase switch back in- for the piezo! ;D Also, he had to lose the trem springs to install the buffer, so if dive-bombing is your thing that may also be an issue for you. Adding a phase switch for the piezo? It doesn't have a negative or positve, how can it go out of phase? And also I found these: www.scotthelmke.com/Mint-box-buffer.htmlwww.till.com/articles/GuitarPreamp/www.diyguitarist.com/Guitars/FET-GuitarPreamp.htmThe first link shows a piezo buffer. I was thinking of making this in a separate enclosure. Then I found the second link, and it shows a FET preamp. Now I'm considering to make the preamp, and set it similar to how the third link shows it. I still don't understand the differences between the piezo buffer and the FET preamp. I also don't know the difference of not having a FET preamp. The buffer is only for the piezo, but I read that the preamp can be used for both. And about the schematics, I don't fully understand them. Is the negative end of the battery connected to the ground (duh?)? I would need help on wiring this since I have no experience in reading schematics. So, would a FET preamp (that would fit in the cavity along with everything else) be worth going for, or just stay with the piezo buffer (that can either be mounted internally or carried externally) to clean its sound? Oh, and thanks for responding and helping so many times
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Post by JohnH on Oct 23, 2008 3:54:45 GMT -5
Well these piezos are interesting things, and nice and cheap for experimenting with. Those buffer circuits are all fine, but from my limited experience of once, with the piezo that I have they would give relatively low output (particularly the first) and a boxy sound. If you listen to the clips on my thread, the first sound that I posted was through such a buffer, then boosted through a mixer. If you like that sound then all OK. Also, if you have been experimenting with a piezo direct to an amp, and are liking what you get (maybe a better sound than mine), then the preamps will only improve it. My view for using those simple circuits for your piezo, go with the second one which has a bit of gain and can get more gain if needed by adding one more cap. Also it has fewer parts. The output resistor R4 can be a lot higher, say 1M. I build those type of buffers into many of my guitars, and they add a nice zing to the magnetic pickups. See this thread: guitarnuts2.proboards45.com/index.cgi?board=schem&action=display&thread=3150But with the piezo I found I needed much more gain, and some special EQ to get my piezo sounding good, and you can see what I did on my piezo thread. That is a much more complex circuit. My advice to you, if you are new to electronics, is have a think about these piezos as a longer term plan but leave them for now and get the magnetic pickups and basic switching going first. Electronics hardly never works first time, and unless you can understand the circuit enough to troubleshoot it, it can be frustrating. While we are willing to help, troubleshooting a piece of active electronics with transistors remotely is extremely difficult so you need to be able to understand it enough to do this yourself. No harm in experimenting though! John
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Post by newey on Oct 23, 2008 5:32:34 GMT -5
I was kidding- hence the smiley there.
JohnH's thread indicated that he had issues with phasing arising in the buffer circuit, not with the piezo alone.
I think his advice is good, too, as far as not biting off too much at once.
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zuee
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Post by zuee on Oct 23, 2008 9:24:44 GMT -5
So I guess the FET preamp will be fine for both magnetic pickups and the piezo? If it is, I guess I'll install it after I finish the entire guitar. But that's in 2 months . Right now I just need to be sure to get everything correct.
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Post by ashcatlt on Oct 23, 2008 11:34:41 GMT -5
Wait! There's only one wire coming out of the piezo? How does it make sound, then? Remember that the designation of + and - on a magnetic pickup is arbitrary and frankly incorrect, since we're talking about AC signals. There quite certainly will be some consideration required re: the relative phase. It's true any time one plans to mix a signal from the same source picked up by more than one transducer. There are some things you could do to test relative phase before wiring, but I think in this case it might be easier to wire it up and listen. If it sounds thin and "phasey", then invert the wiring from one of the sources. I wonder if you'd be able to just flip the piezo itself over, but swapping the wires would certainly work.
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zuee
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Post by zuee on Oct 23, 2008 21:07:43 GMT -5
Wait! There's only one wire coming out of the piezo? How does it make sound, then? Remember that the designation of + and - on a magnetic pickup is arbitrary and frankly incorrect, since we're talking about AC signals. There quite certainly will be some consideration required re: the relative phase. It's true any time one plans to mix a signal from the same source picked up by more than one transducer. There are some things you could do to test relative phase before wiring, but I think in this case it might be easier to wire it up and listen. If it sounds thin and "phasey", then invert the wiring from one of the sources. I wonder if you'd be able to just flip the piezo itself over, but swapping the wires would certainly work. Huh? There's two wires coming from the piezo, one of them is connected to the SPDT and the other to the Ground. The + and - is to tell apart the direction of the coil. And I'm not going to add the phase option for the piezo (if it's even possible).
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Post by ashcatlt on Oct 23, 2008 21:36:31 GMT -5
Well, we're actually talking about polarity, not really phase. The big question: is which "direction" will the voltage swing with a given string excursion? That is, if the string moves toward the pickup, does the output go positive or negative?
One would like to believe that when any given pickup is connected "correctly" (+ to output and - to ground) it would behave the same as any other pickup. This, unfortunately, is not necessarily the case. Different manufacturers, even different pickups from the same manufacturer, could behave opposite. There's only one way to tell. Well, okay, there's a couple, but wire color is not necessarily one of them.
It makes a huge difference whether the piezo will tend to go positive at the same time that the magnetic pickups do. You can alter this (if necessary) by swapping the wires from piezo, or those from the magnetic pickups.
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Post by newey on Oct 23, 2008 21:58:19 GMT -5
Well, a piezo doesn't have a "coil", just some magic healing crystals . . But I'm just being picky with your phraseology. Ash, and JohnH, are both right, however. In the "3-cent piezo" thread, several of us (me included) theorized that phase between mag pups and a piezo shouldn't make any difference, and JohnH noted the phasing issue only after adding his EQ/buffer circuit. But that's all speculation, try it and see what you get, as Ash recommended. If it sounds OOP when combined with the one pickup without a phase switch (you said the middle, which is sensible), swap the wires. The other two pups will already have phase switches on 'em, so you can just flip the switch(es) if need be. You can't really tell phasing from the + and - unless all your pups are from the same manufacturer, those are arbitrary designations. EDIT And Ash and I stepped on each other's threads, we're both telling you the same thing, essentially . . .
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zuee
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Post by zuee on Oct 23, 2008 22:58:36 GMT -5
Well, a piezo doesn't have a "coil", just some magic healing crystals . . But I'm just being picky with your phraseology. Ash, and JohnH, are both right, however. In the "3-cent piezo" thread, several of us (me included) theorized that phase between mag pups and a piezo shouldn't make any difference, and JohnH noted the phasing issue only after adding his EQ/buffer circuit. But that's all speculation, try it and see what you get, as Ash recommended. If it sounds OOP when combined with the one pickup without a phase switch (you said the middle, which is sensible), swap the wires. The other two pups will already have phase switches on 'em, so you can just flip the switch(es) if need be. You can't really tell phasing from the + and - unless all your pups are from the same manufacturer, those are arbitrary designations. EDIT And Ash and I stepped on each other's threads, we're both telling you the same thing, essentially . . . When I mentioned "coil", I was talking about the magnetic pickups, but whatever. I'm not intending to phase a magnetic pickup with the piezo btw, unless you guys say it may be worth it. So what do you guys intend me to do?
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