How to extract the most tone from acoustic guitars

[D2o]

This is just an open discussion of ideas that may lead to better tone from an acoustic guitar.

What tricks can be used to get better tone out of acoustic guitars?

And which tricks are not all they are cracked up to be?



Strings?
- type?
- materials?
- brands?


Contact points?

- string ramps?
- pins? (brass, tusq, bone?)
- saddle? (brass, tusq, bone)?
- nut? (brass, tusq, bone?)

Tuners?
- do they contribute to tone?


What would you replace first?

- The bridge pins?
- The saddle?
- The nut?
- The tuners?

Any comments, questions or other ideas? Fire away!

D2o

[andy]

D2o, you are clearly thinking from a more DIY/upgrade piont of view than this reply is going to be, but aside from a proper setup, I don't know of much to tweak on an acoustic to improve the tone- one thing I do know is that the room you play in will have quite a big effect on the tone you hear.

I always used to love playing in my bedroom as a teenager, and it just felt odd everywhere else. I just assumed that it was my lack of confidence making me feel different, but going back there now I realise that there is a short but clear standing wave between the walls- effectively a delay/reverb which opens up the sound and gives it space.

I now have two rooms, the living room, which is a bit deader sounding, and with a shorter reverb- less interfering, but which doesn't come across as so lively, and a spare room with a nasty standing wave- I even made some baffles to use when that was the room with the computer in it. Both are adequate, but don't have the sound of my old bedroom! I have also noticed that the staircase has some interesting points on it too, which make the guitar sound much fuller, as the reflections are closer and more direct. Various points up the stairs seem to bring out different frequencies and change the character of the guitar. I always play in the living room as it is the most comfortable, the most practical, and my recording gear is in there, but I have become quite aware of the effect of different spaces on the sound of my acoustic. I have quite short mic leads for tidiness so always record in the same spot in front of the computer too, but the principle still stands! If you record, then mic placement is a big issue, but very difficult to master, and a whole science in itself.

As far as parts are concered, my first point of call would be the saddle- it is the only easy-to-change bit which is always in contact with the vibrating string, and has a big effect on how that is transfered to the bridge and top. As most will be plastic, I'm sure they can easily be improved on, although I don't have an experience to back this notion up!

[JohnH]

Great idea - we need more discussion on acoustics, since most of us probably started with one, or at least play them during power outages.

Gotten myself my first decent one just recently, an Australian built Maton. Its a thing of beauty and has a clear powerful tone. Trying different models out, and also comparing to a couple of laminated-top models that Ive fixed recently, I'm amazed at the great variation in tones, with no switches used! Mellow, fuller bodied sounds with cedar and rosewood or mahogany, brighter with spruce top and maple backs. Mine is spruce top with Queensland walnut back and sides.

I've also learned ( but not tried for myself) that there is a difference between Phosphor Bronze and 80/20 Bronze strings. The latter being initially brighter but losing tone quicker. Is that true?. There also seems to be more interest in using coated strings for longer life. I've been using Elixir Nanoweb for restringing. Views from others? I put them on my friends guitars, since they were not comfortable restringing themselves, so I figured they might as well get longer time out of a set before they come back again.

On recording, many these days have inbuilt pickup and preamp (ah..knobs!!), but I'm finding the best tones come from mixing in a miked signal too.

cheers

John

[andy]

Dec 13, 2008 14:35:06 GMT -5 JohnH said:

I've been using Elixir Nanoweb for restringing. Views from others?

I'll stick up for the Elixirs. They are expensive, so I tend not to buy them, but I owned a bass which came with them fitted, and they lasted very well indeed. The coating began to fray a touch in places, but after two string breakages over perhaps four years, you wouldn't have known that some strings were new, and some had been fitted in the factory. I sold that bass with two original strings, two new Elixirs, and one uncoated, just so I wasn't selling it without a full set. The only mis-match was the uncoated.

The tone was quite smooth compared to the uncoated string- whether that holds true for acoustics to I don't know.

[newey]

John asked:

there is a difference between Phosphor Bronze and 80/20 Bronze strings. The latter being initially brighter but losing tone quicker. Is that true?.

I would agree. I generally dislike bronze strings for my acoustic (although I have a set of 80/20s on there now) The bronze strings in general are too bright for my taste, as far as playing acoustic. I love a bright sounding electric, but prefer my folk git to be a bit mellower-sounding.

Back in the '70s (when I was playing a lot more acoustic) you could get acoustic "Silk 'n Steel" sets which I liked a lot better than the bronze- but these have become hard to find, I'm not sure that anyone still makes them. There used to be several brands that made that style set.

I have used electric 12s as well, they sound pretty good.

[D2o]

I always used to love playing in my bedroom as a teenager, and it just felt odd everywhere else. I just assumed that it was my lack of confidence making me feel different, but going back there now I realise that there is a short but clear standing wave between the walls- effectively a delay/reverb which opens up the sound and gives it space.

Andy, that is an interesting and a very astute observation. I (sometimes) go to different rooms, depending on what sound I want. I don't like the livingroom, I do like the spare bedroom.

I like the staircase, too - I used to sit at the top of the basement stairs and play sometimes while I watched my wife twiddling away in the kitchen. She swears she honestly just slipped when she punted me down the stairs that time ... but I'm not convinced.

I've even played in the bathroom - on purpose, fully clothed. The walls and the floor are tile ... loud! I guess I didn't like it, because I haven't repeated the venue (of course, I'm lazy - that could have something to do with it).

As far as parts are concered, my first point of call would be the saddle- it is the only easy-to-change bit which is always in contact with the vibrating string, and has a big effect on how that is transfered to the bridge and top. As most will be plastic, I'm sure they can easily be improved on, although I don't have an experience to back this notion up!

Agreed - that certainly seems the most likely first step. I also created string ramps in one acoustic, which seemed to help.

.....

I've also learned ( but not tried for myself) that there is a difference between Phosphor Bronze and 80/20 Bronze strings. The latter being initially brighter but losing tone quicker. Is that true?. There also seems to be more interest in using coated strings for longer life. I've been using Elixir Nanoweb for restringing. Views from others? I put them on my friends guitars, since they were not comfortable restringing themselves, so I figured they might as well get longer time out of a set before they come back again.

Yep, I use Elixirs too. I find they give a magical warm tone to most any acoustic guitar they are on. When I play acoustic, I like to relax and the Elixirs are the only ones that consistently do it for me (by the way, I have not tried Elixir electric strings).

On recording, many these days have inbuilt pickup and preamp (ah..knobs!!), but I'm finding the best tones come from mixing in a miked signal too.

I just bought an acoustic/electric cutaway ... it has a piezo undersaddle pickup that is not incredibly realistic sounding, but will do - those knobs surely help. I prefer recording into a condenser mic and fiddling with the recorded material digitally, but I got the a/e because I wanted a guitar that I could plug directly into an amp or p.a..

.....

I would agree. I generally dislike bronze strings for my acoustic (although I have a set of 80/20s on there now) The bronze strings in general are too bright for my taste, as far as playing acoustic. I love a bright sounding electric, but prefer my folk git to be a bit mellower-sounding.

Newey, incidentally, the a/e cutaway guitar mentioned above is a little "shrill" compared to a full dreadnaught, so the Elixirs really helped to add a bit of midrange that I believe would have not been well presented with the bronze strings.

Back in the '70s (when I was playing a lot more acoustic) you could get acoustic "Silk 'n Steel" sets which I liked a lot better than the bronze- but these have become hard to find, I'm not sure that anyone still makes them.

I have been interested in trying those too, but haven't ... possibly because I was told that Elixirs are similar in nature. Hmmm ... I should try them!

D'Addario makes them, if you've not come across these.

Thanks for your responses, guys.

Perhaps I'll pony up about $50 for a tusq saddle, nut and pins and a set of Silk and Steels, and see what I've got.

D2o

[newey]

D2o-

Thanks for the link to the D'Addarios, I'll definitely order up a couple of sets!

I had not googled about for these, I had simply asked for them in several music shops- only to be met with a blank stare that said: We Don't Have Them And I Don't Know what You're Talking About.

[newey]

Well, if the subject is how to extract the most tone from an acoustic, there is a luthier whose shop was just up the street from where I used to live. He has the patent on this idea.

This is the more "guitar-nutsy" solution to the problem . . .

Roger Thurman's Clearport Guitars

The link is to his homepage, you have to use the navigation bar on the right-hand side to look at the Clearport Guitars.

[gfxbss]

my opinion on acoustic guitars is reletively traditional.

Spruce Top
Rosewod Back/sides
Mahogany Neck
Bone contact points
Quality tuners
Also, I find that if you have an acoustic with bridge pins, making sure you put the strings on correct is a huge help too. What i mean by that is that the corner of the ball is snuggly in the groove of the bridge pin. also, the ball should be snuggly against the bridge pad.

also, i have become accoustumed to the sound of my classical which is Koa top back and sides. Spanish Cedar neck.

As far as strings, I have stuck w/ elixers. they are expensive, but they last a long time. my only complaint is that they sound very bright, and my ovation already has a lot of high end....

Tyler

[mlrpa]

First thing I do with an acoustic is replace the nut and saddle. The vast majority of guitars out there have plastic. And as we all know, plastic sucks tone. I replace them with bone as soon as possible. Next comes the pins. Ebony bridge pins are somewhat cheap, costing around 20 bucks or so.

As to the strings.... depends on the guitar. If it's a cedar top, or something that doesn't quite have the brightness I'm looking for, I go with Martin SP lights, or Dean Markley Acoustic Alchemy Gold Bronze. Ovations however, I use the Martin Marquis Silk and steel. Hope that bit of info helps

[Happyguy]

to extract the most tone you must

1- grind up selected guitar, let soak in water.

2- use hexane as a solvent.

3- decant keeping only the organic phase. (discarding aqueous)

4- distill.

And there you have it, pure tone.

(This method will render your guitar useless, but the tone can be consumed to give you various super powers.)


Thank you.

[cynical1]

Now that's funny. I've been doing taxes for a week and I really needed that...

Thanks

Cynical One

[newey]

the tone can be consumed to give you various super powers.

And sniffing the hexane can give you the illusion that you have tone. ;D

Do not try this at home. Hexane is a neurotoxin at high exposures. Its use as a solvent is being gradually replaced by n-heptane for this reason.

[cynical1]

Feb 16, 2009 18:01:14 GMT -5 newey said:

Do not try this at home. Hexane is a neurotoxin at high exposures. Its use as a solvent is being gradually replaced by n-heptane for this reason.

...there's always somebody taking the fun out of everything...next they'll be saying don't eat uranium...

[D2o]

Dec 19, 2008 22:21:18 GMT -5 newey said:

Well, if the subject is how to extract the most tone from an acoustic, there is a luthier whose shop was just up the street from where I used to live. He has the patent on this idea.

This is the more "guitar-nutsy" solution to the problem . . .

Roger Thurman's Clearport Guitars

The link is to his homepage, you have to use the navigation bar on the right-hand side to look at the Clearport Guitars.

Newey,

Thanks for the link. I finally got around to checking this out.

Interesting ...

I've seen something like this somewhere ... I think it was an oval hole in the side of the guitar.

On one hand it seems like it should let out more sound ... on the other it kinda flies in the face of the purpose of a closed body that allows resonating strings to be amplified in the first place ...

I watched the demos, but it's hard to gauge sound from the internet ... too many variables (quality of recording, speakers/headphones, etc.).

What do you think of the concept? Have you ever, by chance, seen/heard one up close and personal?

D2o

P.S. I got my hands on those D'Addario Silk and Steels, by the way, and I like them - they seem to mellow out guitars that have a bit of a tinny sound.

[newey]

D2o-

Good to hear from you, buddy!

I have heard Thorman's ported guitars, although I have not heard an A/B type comparison. To my ear, I thought there was a tonal improvement, but that's a hard call without hearing one side-by-side with an identical model without the ported design.

Glad you liked the silk and steels, I've always liked those for exactly the same reason.

[D2o]

Mar 5, 2009 12:50:17 GMT -5 newey said:

I have heard Thorman's ported guitars, although I have not heard an A/B type comparison. To my ear, I thought there was a tonal improvement, but that's a hard call without hearing one side-by-side with an identical model without the ported design.

Hey guys,

In the name of verifying purveyors' claims - be they electronic or acoustic in nature, I have decided to put the "ports" concept to the test - loosely speaking at least.

I have not attempted to duplicate Thurman ports. Rather, I will just emulate the port concept in general and see if there is any basis on which to suggest that improved tone and / or volume is possible.

I have not done this in the hopes of making personal financial gain and, to ensure that, I have done the experiment on an old $20 Korean guitar ... I don't think I could sell it even if I tried.

Here are the details of the experiment:

First, record the guitar in stock form so that we may have a side-by-side A/B comparison.

Second, cut out the ports:

- I drew the boundary where the ports would be cut, and etched it out,

- I then drilled a hole and cut out the ports using Petros' omni-directional hacksaw blade based "j-file" (a splendid idea ... unfortunately, most if not all of Petros' photos seem to have disappeared),

- once cut, I finished the ports off with a rounded metal file and sanded them down to some degree of ... um, "rustic" attractiveness?



Next, the finishing touch - the binding:

- Yeah ... screw that.

- Many thanks, cynical1 and newey, for your behind the scenes ideas and input on this ... but I wasn't able to find the time to do this as I would have liked to. Hopefully I can get to it, but I doubt it will be anytime soon

- In the meantime, the better half will never miss that black nailpolish that she bought one halloween!



Finally, make another recording of the guitar, this time with the ports.


Now, the results* of my findings:


(HIGHLY unscientific* - the Scientologists would kick me out for sure.)


- I did my best to replicate the conditions used during the initial reference recording, but I admit that I simply hadn't recorded enough to verify if the following image is based on a credible comparison

- I believe that I was probably playing more clearly in the recording with the ports, and both of the recordings were made close enough to the mic that a very slight change in distance could throw things off ... in hindsight, I should have attached my microphone element to the physical structure of the guitar to at least remove distance as a variable. The other variables were reasonably close.

- There was no particular tonal difference between the two recordings - neither really jumped out as sounding "better" than the other, although for some reason my perception is that the closed guitar actually had better tone.

- There was significant difference in the volume projected from the guitar with ports ...

- ... however, it is worth repeating that the biggest variable was probably how well and with how much attack I was playing on each day.

... Nevertheless, look for yourselves ...



The recording with the ports indicates significantly more volume.

Subjectively, I would say that there is no loss of tone, but I would say that claims of improved tone are questionable ...

I would obviously like to be able to verify those claims as well, seein' how I'm pretty much stuck with this guitar now.

I hope you have found this to be of interest.

D2o

[cynical1]

D2O -

I found this very interesting. It definitely changes the resonant properties of the soundboard.

Just how did you determine the size and shape of the port holes in the guitar?

I wonder what effect playing with the size of the original sound hole on top would have on how the additional ports color the sound.

Glad that wasn't a 1930's Martin you used as a guinea pig...

Happy Trails

Cynical One

[newey]

Yes, very interesting.

Thurman does claim that the ports result in improved dynamics and projection of the sound; your testing may well have demonstrated that. He particularly mentions projection to the audience, since most guitarists don't play with the soundhole directly pointed out from the stage.

Obviously, it's hard to control for pick attack from one cut to another.

His claims of change in tone ("releasing the trapped harmonics" is, I believe, how he puts it) would be tough to validate in any event.

His other claim is better access to the upper frets, which the ports obviously give. However, I'm not sure you can go that high up the fretboard on a $20 Korean guitar anyway- probably pretty buzzy up there!

[D2o]

Cyn,

The ports that I have created are unique and are a highly guarded secret. I'll tell you, but don't tell anyone else - okay?



Newey,

I was hoping that the ports would mimic a cutaway too. They don't.

I would have to cut them much closer to the neck and that would help a little, but the bottom of the body would still be in the way.

D2o

P.S. ... hang on ... did I just reveal my guarded secret to you too? There aren't others reading this post are there? (actually, this being an acoustic thread on GN2 ... probably not! )

[cynical1]

I love empirical engineering.

Don't worry about a thing, I signed the Uberparanoid Non Disclosure Agreement. Your secret is safe.

Happy Trails

Cynical One

[D2o]

Hi Newey,

Just for kicks, I went back and increased the size of the bottom port (I mean major league increase ... MUCH larger than Thurman's) and that does allow improved access to the upper part of the fretboard.

Actually, it allows my hand to access the inside of the guitar through the side, for that matter! I am sure this guitar is going to cave in at some point ... tee hee hee

Looking at the size of Thurman's Clearports, I still don't see them adding much in the way of access to the upper fretboard. Do you?

D2o

[newey]

He claims better access to the upper frets, but I've never played one so I can't vouch for that. It's still an acoustic neck with a heel, so you're never going to get electric-like access.

It may be that it is less necessary to arch one's fingers "up and over" than with a standard acoustic. This could be easily discerned by a side by side playing with just about any regular acoustic.

[D2o]

I forgot to include pics of the new "superport with storage".

As afr as access to the upper frets goes, it is pretty much like a cutaway now.

... and it has an unexpected bonus of storage for beer or whatever you might want to bring on a fireside picnic / singalong.

D2o

[lpf3]

D2o -

You've also eliminated the need to hold the guitar upside down & shake violently to get your pick back .

-lpf3

[newey]

You've also eliminated the need to hold the guitar upside down & shake violently to get your pick back

Ha! ;D

My F-hole hollow body electric has 2 or 3 floating around inside. You think it's tough to get them out of a round soundhole . . .

[cynical1]

Mar 21, 2009 8:35:21 GMT -5 D2o said:

... and it has an unexpected bonus of storage for beer...

You took the words right out of my mouth.

You now have enough access to the inside of this guitar to start experimenting with baffling configurations. Work with something like the Karlson flare\baffle design...



...and Klipsh baffling...



Strategically placed you might even add enough reinforcement to the neck area to keep it from imploding...

Plus, the marketing hype you could generate from that could be staggering...I can see it now..."The D2o Ergonomically Green Powered Passive Acoustic Port Enhancing Chambered Tone From the Gods Guitar"

And we can all say, "...we knew him when he was just building a beer carrier..."

Happy Trails

Cynical One

[D2o]

Mar 21, 2009 11:56:36 GMT -5 cynical1 said:

And we can all say, "...we knew him when he was just building a beer carrier..."

ROFLMAO

[newey]

I don't know if this has anything to do with "extracting tone" from an acoustic, but it is kind of cool:

Modal Analysis of a Gibson Hummingbird (Kettering Univ.)

Also, check out the similar research on a solid body electric:

Modal Analysis of a Gibson Coronet

[FireBall]

What would it sound like if you covered to top original sound hole and just used the new cut ones? Just curious.