HH - 18 sounds, 2 switches

[xeroks]

Hi Everyone

I've been lurking around this newsgroup for a while, and have probably got to the “a little knowledge is a dangerous thing” stage.

I'm working on a home project, and was looking for some advice on a circuit I've cobbled together. I'm a complete newbie at this kind of thing, so be prepared for a good laugh at my expense...

Background

I'm modding a '78 Ibanez ST200. It's a really nice guitar I've had for years. Off the production line it has: 2 Humbuckers; the usual On/On/On pickup selector; a single volume control; and active bass tone control with a centre notch; an active treble control with centre notch; an on/off switch for the active circuitry. The jack socket also has an on/off switch for the active circuitry too, so you don't drain the battery if you forget to switch it off.

My main problem is that I can never be bothered replacing that battery, and I'm left with 3 tones, which is NOT ENOUGH! My first electric had a coil tap and a phase switch, so I was spoiled from the go.


Anyway I've put together a circuit - hopefully somewhere on this posting - to give me as much variety as possible, while doing as little damage to the guitar as I can. I'm leaving the active circuitry in place: when it's got power, it's very, very good.

The diagram


The design

The idea is to remove the existing pickup selector and drill an extra hole in the main body. In these locations, I'll add 2 rotary switches - a 4P6T and a 4P3T giving the following options:



[/img]

	4P3T switch	Series	Parallel	Single Coil
4P6T switch		1	2	3
Neck alone	1	A*B	A+B	A
Both in series, in phase	2	(A*B)*(C*D)	(A+B)*(C+D)	A*D
Both in series, Out of phase	3	(A*B)*[C*D]	(A+B)*[C+D]	A*[C]
Both in parallel, out of phase	4	(A*B)+[C*D]	(A+B)+[C+D]	A+[C]
both in parallel in phase	5	(A*B)+(C*D)	(A+B)+(C+D)	A+D
Bridge alone	6	C*D	C+D	D

Upsides
All sounds should be humbucking (with the exception of 13 and 63, duhh)
There are no dead positions
Downside
Single coil positions have those nasty loops that people suggest are bad.

Why am I posting this?

I'd like advice on a few things:
1.Will the circuit work? I'd like a sanity check before I draw out a wiring diagram.
2.Is it worth my while including options 2 and 3 in the 6 way rotary, or should I just simplify the design to a 4 way pickup selector?
3.I'd prefer a toggle switch instead of the 3 way rotary - does anyone know of a true 3 way, 4 pole toggle switch I could use?
4.I'm pretty new to the whole soldering thing too, and am likely to screw something up. Any tricks of the trade or links would be appreciated. Especially about how to solder 2 wires to 1 fragile lug.


any thoughts or comments would be much appreciated...

xeroks

(modified the path to the linked diagram - 26/03/09)

[newey]

xeroks:

Hello and welcome!

First, please do us a favor and downsize your diagram. You're blowing off the side of the page as it is.

I can't vet your diagram, but I will say that you are more likely to be pleased with series OOP than with parallel OOP, if you're looking to simplify this down a bit. A 3T4P toggle switch does exist as well, I'll hunt about for the link.

[xeroks]

Many thanks for the welcome and quick response newey: is that a better size now?

hmm, that's interesting that you reckon that series out performs parallel for OOP.

A link to that switch would be fantastic - the closest i've seen are the ones with 12 lugs - like the kent armstrong one - nothing with 16 lugs at all.

[newey]

Much better, xeroks. Thanks!

I may have misspoken on the switch. I was thinking a 4PDT. This may be doable with a 4PDT On-On-On toggle, but I'm not sure. Have to look at it a bit.

Also, some of the connections on your diagram don't line up with the lugs, kind of hard to read.

[ashcatlt]

Feb 21, 2009 19:12:41 GMT -5 newey said:

I can't vet your diagram...

Sure you can. Start at one end and trace through to the other. I like to start at "ground" and work through to the "hot output". It takes a little time, and can get somewhat confusing, but I know you can do it.

I've heard a lot of preference for series OOP around here. I think you'll find it more useful more often. On the other hand, I like to keep my options open, if possible.

I can't vet your diagram right now becuase as is few of the wires apear to connect to anything. This is likely an artifact of the downsizing. I could probably figure out what you meant, but I've been enjoying the festivities a bit much tonight...

[xeroks]

Hi guys

thanks for your responses.
Obviously my diagram's not communicating my ideas properly to you.


I don't think it's a downsizing issue: all the resizing is on the img tag in html, not the graphic file.

I'm not sure what i need to change. Where are you seeing wire not connecting to anything?

I've added arrows to the switches, in case they're not clear. The switches are both pointing to the 1 position.

also in case it's not clear, the grey circles are where wires connect. if there's no grey circle, the wires cross without touching.

The black circles are lugs on the switches.



If it helps to describe what i'm intending:
The top 2 poles on S1 switch the neck between series, parallel and s/c
The bottom two pole do the same for the bridge.

The top 2 poles of S2 does the pickup selection.
The bottom 2 poles of s2 manage the phasing of the bridge pickup


sorry guys, as i say i'm new to this...


(modified path to linked diagram - 26/03/09)

[newey]

It is a resizing, or copying problem. I downloaded the image to my desktop, intending to mark it up to show where we weren't seeing connections, and it was fine when I opened it in Paint.

So I re-uploaded it via Photobucket. Don't know how you uploaded it, but for whatever reason it didn't show up properly on the board. Some of the image hosting services don't play well with the board, that's why we recommend Photobucket.

You may have been seeing it look ok on your monitor, but for the rest of us, few if any of your wires were connected to anything.

Your wiring on S1 looks fine to me, I'm not sure on the phase part of S2.

[xeroks]

ok i've made the lines on the diagram at the top of the thread bigger now - does that help?

[newey]

Yes, that's fine now.

[ashcatlt]

That's much better, though it lacks the arrows, which did help. Anyway, I looked through and it seems to work the way your table says it does. I didn't notice any errors or issues. The neck pickup is hanging from hot in position 6, no matter the position of the 3-way. I'm not prepared to offer a solution to that right now.

[xeroks]

thanks for having a look at it, ashcatlt.

I'll have a search around to find out what the impact of the pickup hanging off hot is.

[newey]

I'll have a search around to find out what the impact of the pickup hanging off hot is.

It can, in some cases, be a noise generator. Shunting unused pups to ground is probably the better wiring practice. Although some folks will tell you not to worry about it.

[pete12345]

Quite a neat scheme- I like it I can imagine using this in a H-H strat, with a superswitch as S2 (losing the parallel out of phase) and with S1 as a rotary switch in place of a tone pot.

Come to think of it, S-H-S might be interesting to try, using the neck single coil and half of the middle as one humbucker, and the bridge single coil and the other half of the middle as the other humbucker. That way, the 'split' mode would effectively turn it into an S-S, avoiding using half a humbucker on its own.

[xeroks]

thanks guys

pete - that SHS idea is really out there - though I'm wondering that the end result would be not too dissimilar to a SSS. I'll have to have a think about it.


I think I've come up with solution to the hanging hot issue.

Change the neck pickup so it's first in the chain - wired to earth instead of live.
The bridge pickup becomes second in the chain, and goes to live, but only after going through the OOP part of S2. In position 1, it's disconnected, so no hanging pickup.

I'll draw it out and post it tonight. And check it first!

[pete12345]

Feb 23, 2009 8:00:08 GMT -5 xeroks said:

I think I've come up with solution to the hanging hot issue.

Change the neck pickup so it's first in the chain - wired to earth instead of live.
The bridge pickup becomes second in the chain, and goes to live, but only after going through the OOP part of S2. In position 1, it's disconnected, so no hanging pickup.

I'll draw it out and post it tonight. And check it first!

just swap over your ground symbols and 'to volume control' label... I think the advantage of S-H-S would be that all combinations (except where only one coil is selected) would be hum-cancelling. You might also get some interesting tones from the dissimilar pickups as well, and you could experiment with SC-sized and ordinary humbuckers. Just have to figure out which coils are RW/RP, and which way round to wire them

[xeroks]

hmm I suppose that'd be simpler... ;D

[xeroks]

hi

Sorry, pete, i tried just swapping them over, but it all ended up a big, out-of-phase mess!

Here's my original rejig.



This version should fix the hanging off hot issue, and I also noticed I could get rid of one of those loopy things from pickup B when in single coil mode.

I've checked it over as best i can - can someone double check for me, please?


and thanks again ashcatlt for pointing that out to me. it's the kind of thing i wouldn't have thought about.

xeroks


(modified the path of the linked diagram - 26/3/09)

[ChrisK]

I'd prefer a toggle switch instead of the 3 way rotary - does anyone know of a true 3 way, 4 pole toggle switch I could use?

Since a dual-coil pickup can be switched to series/single coil/parallel with a DP3T Center-ON toggle switch (the oft called DPDT [even though it has three positions] ON-ON-ON switch), two dual-coil pickups can certainly be simultaneously switched to series/single coil/parallel with a 4P3T Center-ON toggle switch.

[xeroks]

Hi chris

I wasn't able to think of a way to use one of those, and keep the single coil - OOP options humbucking.

If there's a way, let me know - I'd much prefer a toggle than that rotary.

[xeroks]

Hi again Chris

I re-read your posting, I might have picked you up wrong. My problem is that I can't find a 4P3T toggle - that is one with 16 lugs.

As far as I can see all the ones at digikey, for instance, are the 12 lug kind. Maybe I'm reading the specs wrong.

[xeroks]

Ok

I'm about to order the switches for this, but the options on the catalogs are too much for my small brain.

for the 3 way switch, i think
digikey part no EG1958-ND ( e-switch pn KC43A30.001NLS)

for the 6 way, i think the grayhills part number must be 44A30-02-2-06N
While I can't see it specifically on digikey, the catlaog suggests it's doable

Am I barking up the wrong tree for these? Is there a more off-the shelf part for the 6 way?


i've not posted my wiring diagram because it depends to an extent on whether I can fit the pickup selector switch into the recess on my guitar (the current pickup selector is in the same position as an Les Paul)


xeroks

[ChrisK]

A 16 terminal pure 4P3T toggle switch will be fairly difficult to find, especially since it's not physically possible to make one.


I don't like the plastic 4P3T switch that you have chosen for two reasons; #1, the body, bushing, and shaft is plastic, and #2, it's predominantly made out of plastic.

What you have chosen for the Grayhill appears to be a Mil-Std switch (military quality level). These are excruciatingly expensive. I can get many of these surplus, but they still cost $40 to $100. And, you're on the wrong side of the pond (there will be blood, er import duty - same thing).

I would recommend the Grayhill series 71 switches.
lgrws01.grayhill.com/web/images/ProductImages/71rotary.pdf

Golly gosh, I searched for these on the digikey UK site. They're in stock at aboot 17#.
search.digikey.com/scripts/DkSearch/dksus.dll?Detail&name=GH7104-ND

These are "pin-able" (they come with the roll pins) to 1 to 6 positions. You could use one for the 3-throw rotary. You could also use one for a 1-throw switch as well, but I wouldn't recommend widely sharing that experience (no one will be laughing with you...).

BTW, the mechanism and shaft is made out of steel (none of that fantastic elastic plastic stuff).


I seem to like the 71 series.....




And, BTW, you might want to try parallel 1/2 OOP (use a 0.01uF to 0.02uF series cap from one pickup into the mix).

[ChrisK]

StewMac also has 4P6T rotary switches.

They have splined shafts that are nice for push-on knobs.

Single coil positions have those nasty loops that people suggest are bad.

Ok, I'll bite; what "nasty loops"?

[xeroks]

thanks for your reply chris.
I wondered if I was going over the top with that 6 way.

and thanks for taking the time to look it up too. these things are quite particular, and easy to get wrong.



The loops are where effectively both leads from a coil are connected to each other. I saw some debate saying that it made a potentially noticable difference to the tone.

I thought someone on this site had done some experimentation, but i can't find the thread.

[ChrisK]

The loops are where effectively both leads from a coil are connected to each other. I saw some debate saying that it made a potentially noticeable difference to the tone.

I thought someone on this site had done some experimentation, but i can't find the thread.

I experimented to some small degree with this (I noticed it as an artifact of something else I was testing at the time).

I had wired the ToggleCaster design that I had come up with in 2002(?) and was testing out the sounds. When either the top or bottom pickup in the structure (the neck or bridge) was off, I had the coil shorted. When a coil was switched into series mode, since this was a structure that required two coils minimum to be in series, the bridge coil was grounded on one end and open on the other. As I switched the bridge coil from on (series and hence open) to off (shorted), I noticed a loss of high end harmonics in the neck pickup as it was selected in parallel mode (the only coil on).

I noticed a similar effect switching the neck and monitoring the bridge.

Note: this is the original The ToggleCaster (series/parallel 'n such) post.

This was only noticeable when a note or chord was struck and the switch was rapidly switched (one second at a time) between off and on. If one set the switch in one position and played a note, and then set it to another and played a note, it was much harder to hear a difference.

To be fair, I tend to test out new designs thru a small PA system that I have so that I may actually hear the total full-fidelity results. I can always plug things into a crappy (tube) amp later if I want to add "character".


There have also been some tests to determine the effect of a hanging coil. But I've never seen any tests where the coil is switched between out and hanging while the same note/chord was sustaining to determine the difference. And, to be fair, I've never done any more tests where the coil is switched between out and shorted while the same note/chord was sustaining to determine the difference.

These tests should be easy to do (and publish) with the recording power that we have today. But, they have to be done in the same guitar on the same note/chord while it is sustaining/decaying.


I guess that I should get the ToggleCaster out, put it back together, and try recording it. But, other things are afoot.

[xeroks]

by the way chris - when you said

And, BTW, you might want to try parallel 1/2 OOP (use a 0.01uF to 0.02uF series cap from one pickup into the mix).

did you mean something like

bridge coils in series, neck single coil, and with a capacitor in series with - say - the bridge?

I could do that by adding a 4th option to the 3-way switch (i'd deal with OOP using the existing 6-way).

I was trying to keep the setup relatively simple - are these sounds THAT different?

[ChrisK]

And, BTW, you might want to try parallel 1/2 OOP (use a 0.01uF to 0.02uF series cap from one pickup into the mix).

Typically. parallel OOP is the primary pickup (you choose) in parallel with another pickup, but the parallel connection is made thru the aforementioned cap. In essence, the cap in series with the other pickup is a high-pass filter. This reduces the coupling (subtraction) of the lower frequencies which caused parallel OOP to be weak, thin, and generally uninteresting.

[xeroks]

Thanks for that explanation, Chris
I'll change my wiring so I can easily put that capacitor in. It sounds a good idea - especially for when they're in single coil mode.
However, humbuckers in parallel, and out-of-phase was one of my "target" sounds, but i'll give it a try.


While I'm waiting for those switches to arrive ( i've absolutely no idea how long they'll be) I've a question about cables.

I've got a couple of 4 core, shielded cables in the guitar. The shielding is a thin foil wrapping. What's the best way to make a secure connection - ie one that doesn't tear - between this and Earth?

Some kind of conducting glue, perhaps?

[pete12345]

Is there a bare wire bundled in there as well? I've found a few cables with such a shield, and the connection to the shield is made by a bare wire inside the cable. Find the bare wire and connect to earth- done

[xeroks]

perfect - i missed that.

I'll have to go back now and check the wiring on the pickup I converted to 4-core.