Screwed up, could use some help-done!-pic last pag

[randyb]

Hi,

I'm a drummer/drum builder but my daughter asked me to repaint a diy electric guitar made in the 80s. Did it for her, but have gotten stuck rewiring it. Have read through numerous schematics here and other places but haven't managed to find the same configuration. If someone here could point me in the right direction, or draw me a diagram for this guitar I would be extremely grateful.
components
1 -humbucker(bridge)
2 -single pickups
1 -3 way blade switch
1 -volume control
1 -2 way switch( only 3 contacts on it. I have no idea what this switch did/does)
1 - 1/4 inch jack.

This was a very good sounding guitar before I took it apart. Too bad I didn't do a better job of labeling my parts.

Here is some links to pictures of the guitar 1 before I took it apart, and 1 after the paintjob.
www.ghostnote.net/vbforum/picture.php?albumid=203&pictureid=1817
www.ghostnote.net/vbforum/picture.php?albumid=203&pictureid=1819
Thanks for any replies.

[newey]

Randyb-

Hello and welcome!

I'm a drummer/drum builder

That's OK. We'll lay off the drummer jokes while you're around.

As far as rewiring the guitar goes, is your goal to recreate the original wiring, or just to make the guitar work well for your daughter? If it's the former, more research into exactly what this is/was will be needed. If you just want a usable plan, that can certainly be done.

My guess, based on the components you have, is that the 3-way lever switch was used to control the 2 single-coil pickups, and that the 2-way toggle was used to turn the HB on/off, or perhaps the lever switch controls the neck and bridge pups, while the 2-way turns the middle pup on/off. Both of these schemes would give your daughter a pretty good set of pickup combos.

There are some other possibilities, but not too many given that the 2-way switch has only 3 lugs on it. That's a single-pole, double- throw switch (SPDT), and if we assume that the original design switched all three pickups in/out in some fashion, that switch probably controlled one of the three.

[randyb]

Hi,
Great avatar in the snow! "drummer jokes"...we don't hear many of them in the drum forums I hang around. It's all guitarist, lead singer jokes! Actually, "How do you know a drummer is knocking on your door. A: He speeds up. And, "What the $%$# are you building back there?" are a couple of my favorites.

I am just after getting this guitar back up and running. My buddy played it for years, humbucker is by hamer and the other components are good quality. This guitar was built by a guy who was doing custom guitars in Alberta in the late 80s, so getting back to the original through research isn't likely to work.

Me not being a guitarist, I would be open to your suggestions here. Your two scenarios have different options.

1)"is that the 3-way lever switch was used to control the 2 single-coil pickups, and that the 2-way toggle was used to turn the HB on/off"
**With this scenario, she can't have the HB on by itself. 3 way would go neck, middle, both, 2way HB on off.

2)"or perhaps the lever switch controls the neck and bridge pups, while the 2-way turns the middle pup on/off."
**This scenario, 3 way gives her neck, HB, both, 2way middle on on.

Is there times where you want the HB alone? Or is it always with another pu? IF you want the hb alone at times then I think scenario 2 is the one I want.

Thanks for your help so far.
Randyb

[xeroks]

I've seen electric blue guitars - but electric green?

Eighties, you say? ;D



Actually I quite like it. It's got some attitude!

[randyb]

Jun 18, 2009 9:14:49 GMT -5 xeroks said:

I've seen electric blue guitars - but electric green?

Eighties, you say? ;D

Actually I quite like it. It's got some attitude!

My buddy had a green 69 charger that we would go screaming around in when my daughter was 6. She loved that car...so asked for her guitar to be painted with a scheme that was a tribute to it. She says turning the guitar up and playing reminds her of the roar of the engine!

Weird kid,
Randyb

[newey]

RB-

Yes, using the HB alone is a common thing for lead guitar, and you're right, putting the SP switch on the middle pup would give your daughter that option.

There's a diagram similar around here somewhere, I'll have to look about for it a bit later.

If you want to upgrade, that 3-way switch can be replaced by a Strat-style 5 way switch. You could then use std strat pickup switching, and the extra SP switch could find some other uses. A new switch would probably cost you about $10-$12, but hey, this is for your weird daughter.

Or is she weird only because she plays guitar instead of following in her dad's footsteps?

[D2o]

Welcome, Randy

Weird kid? ... yeah, maybe - but sounds like it's definitely in a cool way.

I was wondering why the back was pink(ish) and the front was suddenly lime - very cool charger paint job, by the way.

As newey has alluded to, the components are sort of all there to do what would be considered a fairly typical (even good) mix of options, and I would think that you can add some flexibility if it is possible to use a 5 way switch and a push/pull (that is not a description of drumming action ).

Now, if you are willing to drill into the guitar to make room for the right switches, there is no end to the truly nutzoid® options that some of the folks around here can provide.

D2o

[D2o]

Newey, Randy - just to clarify: my allusion was to Newey's first allusion, not his second allusion. ;D

[randyb]

Jun 18, 2009 10:02:49 GMT -5 newey said:

RB-

Yes, using the HB alone is a common thing for lead guitar, and you're right, putting the SP switch on the middle pup would give your daughter that option.

There's a diagram similar around here somewhere, I'll have to look about for it a bit later.

If you want to upgrade, that 3-way switch can be replaced by a Strat-style 5 way switch. You could then use std strat pickup switching, and the extra SP switch could find some other uses. A new switch would probably cost you about $10-$12, but hey, this is for your weird daughter.

Or is she weird only because she plays guitar instead of following in her dad's footsteps?

You drilled it...isn't interested in the drums! But now I have someone at home to play with. Other things are strange too...city slicker kid who decided she wanted to be a hunter at 11yrs. Nobody in our family hunted...til then! Now her and I spend about 4 wks a year out in the bush and our family only eats organically grown meat(read bambi, bullwinke, and elmer the elk). I keep looking at her wondering where she came from.

Back to guitars. 5 way switch basically would replace my 3way/SP combo right now. Right? Then I would be adding a push/pull switch to be able to make the humbucker a single in some situations and also would be adding a tone controller. Would the tone control go where the SP switch is? Also, I don't see the push/pull in the schematic that D2o linked to. Where is that? Would I need to drill a new hole for that? Also can I do this without a tone control knob? I see a .047cap on that diagram too. Is that a capacitor I would need?

Randyb

[D2o]

Randy, you're bringing back memories with stories of the bush ... I used to love to go hiking through the woods near home (I grew up in rural Nova Scotia).

No direction whatsoever, I'd just go. I used to refer to it as 'namming.

Now I'm just a fat cityslicker ... not a fat cat, just fat. Oh well.

The push/pull is the volume pot with what looks like a piece of lego stuck to it.

D2o

P.S. as for the tone caps and all the other stuff, yep - essentially you may as well update the wiring as shown. You could even shield to mitigate 60Hz hum.

[ashcatlt]

Jun 18, 2009 0:51:50 GMT -5 randyb said:

Hi,

I'm a drummer/drum builder...

Well, there's your trouble right there.

We'll lay off the drummer jokes while you're around.

I won't.

Did I ever mention that I'm the founder and president of the Partnership for a Drum Free Amerika?

DARE to keep kids off drums!

1)"is that the 3-way lever switch was used to control the 2 single-coil pickups, and that the 2-way toggle was used to turn the HB on/off"
**With this scenario, she can't have the HB on by itself. 3 way would go neck, middle, both, 2way HB on off.

Why not?

5 way switch basically would replace my 3way/SP combo right now. Right? Then I would be adding a push/pull switch to be able to make the humbucker a single in some situations and also would be adding a tone controller. Would the tone control go where the SP switch is? Also, I don't see the push/pull in the schematic that D2o linked to. Where is that? Would I need to drill a new hole for that? Also can I do this without a tone control knob? I see a .047cap on that diagram too. Is that a capacitor I would need?

The 5-way should be a drop in replacement of the blade switch. It'll have exactly the same lugs as the one you've got now, but more lever positions. You will be giving up the possibility of having the bridge pickup in combination with the neck, and the "All Three" combination. The tone control is not essential, but could probably fit where the toggle is. D2o identified the push/pull, it can go where the V pot is now. No drilling would be required for any of this. The cap is only necessary if you're going with the Tone control.

[sumgai]

Randy,

Welcome to the NutzHouse! ;D

My only question so far is, where's the mounting slot for the blade switch? I don't see it in either image....

The most likely switching layout for that era is the blade switch chose which pickup, and the toggle switch chose to cut out one of the two HB coils, rendering a single coil sound in the bridge position. Not often done all by itself these days, but usually included as part of a wide variety of pickup selections.

If Daughter Dearest is not fussy about tone, then make it easy on yourself and wire as above, incidentally saving yourself from further cash outlay. If she's got some definite ideas, then try to get them in writing, then present them here. By this, I mean does she have a particular Guitar Hero who's tone she wants to emulate?

Personally, I'd eliminate the toggle switch, and go for a Blend circuit, ala one of JohnH's creations. ;D

HTH




sumgai

[randyb]

Jun 18, 2009 12:25:17 GMT -5 ashcatlt said:

Jun 18, 2009 0:51:50 GMT -5 randyb said:

Hi,

Did I ever mention that I'm the founder and president of the Partnership for a Drum Free Amerika?

Well, I'm really in need of help...so I don't want to go teasing too many people and wind up getting some wiring diagram that just sets me up to be electrocuted. ;D But I have always said that "Lead guitar" was a misnomer. You lead guitar types seem to have problems with authority and have to be reigned in to the tempo. It bothers you guys that you are "Lead" in name only! ;D Imagine the racket that would happen if you didn't have someone showing you where the beat was!!!

Hopefully you will still help me now
Randyb

[randyb]

Ok, I said 3 way blade, but not being a guitarist I called it the wrong thing. It is a 3 position toggle like this.
www.stewmac.com/product_images/1lg/1217/Straight_Toggle_Switch_Detail.jpg

After a bit more reading here and other places and a call to the kid I think I want to keep it simple and just put back together what I had. If she wants changes later on I will go for them then.

So I would appreciate being headed towards a schematic that would put together the following

1 humbucker
2 singles
1 - 3position toggle switch
1- 2 position toggle switch with 3 contacts,
1 -volume control
1- 1/4 inch jack

I think I would like this combo to allow my daughter to do neck, middle, bridge idividually and then whatever combo adding the 2 position switch does.

Does this make sense? If not, could you give me a schematic that uses my components that does make sense to a guitarist.

Thanks
Randyb

[ashcatlt]

There was once this drummer I knew. He'd drop a beat in one measure. Then he'd have to add a beat to another measure somewhere down the line. Otherwise he'd be a...

...well, this is a family freindly forum.

I play mostly rhythm. Been playing to machine based "perfect" timing reference for so long, I've got better timing than most stick weilders I know.

I was going to ask whether it was a Tele-style or Gibson style 3-way, but since you said blade switch in the OP...

If it were a Tele-style blade switch you could get the N-M-B thing you're asking for on that switch alone. That Gibson style switch you've got only has two "inputs" and one "output", though. You get to pick two pickups to connect there. It will choose one, the other, or both (not in that order). I'd go with the #1 that newey posted above. As I indicated, this will give you all possible parallel combinations of 3 pickups.

It'd be pretty easy to whip up a diagram, but my house just exploded with children, so...

[randyb]

Jun 18, 2009 14:48:21 GMT -5 ashcatlt said:

There was once this drummer I knew. He'd drop a beat in one measure. Then he'd have to add a beat to another measure somewhere down the line. Otherwise he'd be a...

...well, this is a family freindly forum.

I play mostly rhythm. Been playing to machine based "perfect" timing reference for so long, I've got better timing than most stick weilders I know.

If it were a Tele-style blade switch you could get the N-M-B thing you're asking for on that switch alone. That Gibson style switch you've got only has two "inputs" and one "output", though. You get to pick two pickups to connect there. It will choose one, the other, or both (not in that order). I'd go with the #1 that newey posted above. As I indicated, this will give you all possible parallel combinations of 3 pickups.

It'd be pretty easy to whip up a diagram, but my house just exploded with children, so...

Now that's funny! I understand kids...got 3 here. You are right about timing and stick guys. Very few are close to perfect... and even the best use a click/loops etc in live and recording situations.

Anyone on a schematic for me to put this back together like has been mentioned by newey above?

Randyb

[newey]

RB said:

Anyone on a schematic for me to put this back together like has been mentioned by newey above?

It would hardly be fair of me to make the suggestion and not back it up.

However, since you're new here, I suggest that you DO NOT wire this up until someone with better skills than mine gives it the go-ahead. I think this is right, but I'd like confirmation. And I usually screw up the V and T pot wiring, I may have done so here. So, park yer iron for a bit, please.


This should yield:

Mid switch off, Gibby toggle gives Neck/N+Br/Bridge.
Mid switch on, Gibby toggle gives N+M/N+M+Br/Br+M

Also note that this omits the ground wire from the bridge, there should be a channel of some sort to run a wire from the bridge to the control cavity ground. I haven't shown it this way for clarity's sake, but all the ground points can go to the back of the vol. pot.

[ashcatlt]

Oh, that's why not...

newey, the way you've got that SPDT wired, it'll kill everything when the mid is off. I think you'll want to remove both black wires from the switch. Just connect the "bottom" of the pickup straight to ground.

We're sure that extra toggle only has two positions?

[randyb]

Ok...couple probs I can see with the diagram by newey...

1- I don't have a tone knob/pot or whatever you call it ...just a volume
2 - no capacitor in this one either.
3)- the three position toggle looks like the link I posted earlier..it has 4 contacts on one side and 1 on the other. On the side that has 4 contacts the two middle ones were together with a wire coming off them. But your schematic doesn't show the one on the other side.

And to answer answer ashcatlt...yes the second toggle only has two positions, and it has only 3 contacts total.

should I take pictures of everything or is this enough info?
Thanks
Randyb

[newey]

Thanks, Ash!

But won't that leave the mid hanging from hot when off? My goal was to short it to ground but I guess I didn't accomplish that.

Now, if it was/is a three-position toggle, the cool guitarist daughter could have "mid only", which is the only thing this scheme lacks (since series/phase etc are not on the menu).

And yeah, that's why . . .

EDIT:RandyB-

You jumped in there on me. The three way toggle may not look like the diagram, but it really only has three lugs. It's an open-frame switch, if you "toggle it about" you'll see how it operates.

Sorry, I missed that you don't have a tone control. The tone control is a "sub-module" in the diagram which can be easily eliminated, including the attached cap. Just ignore the wire from the vol pot to the tone pot on the diagram, and ignore the ground from the tone pot to the Vol pot. I can redraw it without the Tone pot if you are unsure.

[ashcatlt]

Jun 18, 2009 23:12:39 GMT -5 newey said:

Thanks, Ash!

But won't that leave the mid hanging from hot when off? My goal was to short it to ground but I guess I didn't accomplish that.

The only thing "hanging from hot" will be the wire from the center lug to the volume pot. Do you see the bridge or neck pickups as hanging from hot when switched away from?

On the side with 4 contacts, the middle two go together just like they were before. On the other side is probably the frame ground, which shouldn't contact any of the others in any switch position. This should go to wherever you decide to make your ground point. newey suggested the back of one of the pots, and that's the most common place to put it.

[ChrisK]

newey,

Unless you edited your pic after the original post, I don't see a problem with the SPDT middle selector switch. While it will unnecessarily short the middle pickup when it's not selected, it will not short the guitar's output.

It's not hanging from hot, it's just loitering on the ground. Besides, the neck and bridge aren't so rudely truncated when they're loitering aboot.

As ash suggested, just use the SPDT as a SPST.


randyb,

As always, get out your digital multimeter and make resistance measurements (continuity checks) of the switching pattern of the switches (and the resistance of the pots and pickups). Then you know for sure. Write it down in the notes that you keep for every guitar that you work on.

If you don't have a digital multimeter, go out and get yourself a digital multimeter......it's Father's day weekend, who's gonna deny you one?

They can be had for $10 or so.

[newey]

I haven't (yet) edited the original diagram. I will do so this evening sometime as it's parked on the home PC drive. I'll eliminate the ground off the mid pup switch as well as dropping the tone pot.

Apart from that, Randy, you're good to go. ChrisK's advice should be heeded, though- measure all the components first. It's a minor headache to do so now, but it's a major headache later when you're trying to figure out why the thing doesn't work- only to discover that one of these 20+ year-old components has "gone to God".

[ashcatlt]

Ooops! ChrisK is right (again). It won't kill everything. It will unnecessarily short the middle pickukp, which might steal some harmonic content.

[randyb]

I'm very impressed guys. I am always awed by the internet. The ability to get help from all over the world from people who know so much more than me and can set me up to do it right just amazes me. Thanks.

I don't have a digital multimeter...but have one that has a needle scale. Mostly use it to test voltage/continuity in my vehicles when I am working on them. Will this do or do I need an exact amount of resistance in these circuits?

I am still a bit worried about doing this without a final schematic though. I don't want to screw up.

Again, I am deeply thankful for your help. I will have to treat guitarists a bit nicer now that you have represented them all so well! ;D ;D
Thanks
Randyb

[D2o]

Awe shucks, Randy

If only I knew enough about wiring to help you like those guys have.

Yep, needle is just fine - just set it to 20K ohms.

Cheers,
D2o

[newey]

I will have to treat guitarists a bit nicer now that you have represented them all so well! ;D ;D

Just don't throw your sticks and we're good . . .

I'll redo the wiring diagram as per the discussion above. This won't, however, be a "schematic", technically. I assume the wiring diagram should suffice for you?

Your analog meter will work just fine for this assuming it has sufficient range to read the necessary resistance values. The Vol pot may go as high as 1MΩ, the pickups will be under 20KΩ, and the switches you will be just checking for continuity between the various lugs with the various settings, so that's either going to be a very low resistance (around1-3Ω) or open (meaning the meter reads overlimit, i.e., "infinite" resistance).

[ChrisK]

When you're measuring a pot, use a 1 Meg Ohm range, which I doubt that your meter has.

When measuring a pickup, use the 20 K Ohm range.

When you're measuring continuity (contact closures) use the lowest range that it has.

[newey]

OK, Randy, here's v2.0:



I added the bridge ground wire and ran all the grounds to the back of the volume pot.

You should be able to proceed from this. However, we haven't established what wire color scheme your pickups use (or, if they're even all the same . . )

To ensure that all 3 pickups are in phase with each other, we need to establish which of your wires correspond to my red wires ("+", we'll call these for our purposes) and which of yours correspond to my black ones ("-", we'll say).

This may or may not be obvious.

If it is not, we'll need to know the following info:

How many wires does each pickup have?

Is there a braided shield wire around the outside of the other wires on each one, or not?

What colors are your wires?

Does the HB have 4 wires plus a shield, or fewer? How many? Are any of the HB wires currently tied together?

And, do you know whether all 3 are from the same manufacturer? Any way to tell which manufacturer?

[sumgai]

newey,

If I read Randy's opening salvo correctly, he stated that he has "1 -3 way blade switch". This would be the original Telecaster type that we'd expect to find on 3-pickup guitars of that era (that weren't made by Gibson).

Now that doesn't make much difference, your diagram is kinda "brand neutral". (Providing that persons interested in using it can make the translation between the two switch styles.) But, it doesn't yield the much-vaunted Bridge + Neck combo...... For that reason, I'd opt for moving that switch from the Middle pup to the Neck pup.

HTH


sumgai