Star grounding/Quieting the beast question

[kmurten]

Hello,

I have an old MIM strat that buzzes like crazy and pops when I touch the strings. I am going to do the Quieting the Beast mod to hopefully correct this.

But one of the steps seems a little unclear to me. After all of the ground wires have been attached to the second ring connector, does the ring need to be attached anywhere? Or does it just float around in the cavity?

Also, what should I "insulate" this with? Will electrical tape do?

One more thing, I am having some trouble finding the .33uf 400v capacitor. I found one that is 200v, will that work okay?

Thanks for helping out a new guy, I have never shielded my guitar before. I think this particular one does not have any shielding whatsoever, so I hope this helps with the buzz.

[newey]

Kmurten-

Hello and welcome!

Or does it just float around in the cavity?

Yes.

Also, what should I "insulate" this with? Will electrical tape do?

That's fine.

If you're going to use the "blocking capacitor", better to move up to 600V rather than down to 200V.

400V ones are available at Parts Express here. They may have 600V ones as well, I didn't check.

[kmurten]

Great! Thanks for the fast response and the link to the capacitor.

I think I am all set to try this now.

[rabidgerry]

Why start another Quieting the Beast Thread?? Thats what I say. I too have a few Quieting the Beast questions so I hope yall don't get at me for asking the same old crap that you've probably all answered 10000000000000000000000000000

times ;D

So 1st up:

How important is it to have the dual core, with shield piece of cable runnin from the input jack to the newly formed star grounding point? What I mean is, I heard a cheap alternative was to twist the already existing wires around each other and just use them the way they are.

I have some dual conductor screened cable ok, but I'm apprehensive about using it as the wires inside are actually much thinner than the two standard pieces of wire (which is whatever the standard wire fender puts inside their latest guitars is). Should I just use the dual core wire or buy stuff with thicker inner conductors?

What type of wire do Fender use anyways? I could use some of that for spare!! AWG something or other right?


Ok next:
Ive read a lot about shielding pickup covers too I was wondering should I do this or should the quieting the beast mod be sufficient enough to tackle the dreaded BUZZ i get on full gain with a few effects thrown in for good measure!

I've read shielding the pickup covers is the best thing to do, but I really freaked out and got confused when I read you should only install tape that doesn't fully go round the pup cover, in other words it shouldn't meet and form a full circuit (doesn't make sense to me) but should obviously touch the new ground formed during Quieting the beast. So which is it? (should I decide to shield covers as well.

I think the shielding of the pup covers but not forming an entire circuit is down to tone preservation according to a loada lunatics from another forum!!! But I'd rather find out from the legends on 'ere!!

here is a link to that forum

music-electronics-forum.com/t2114/

found that in a search on google, I'm not defecting!!

Ok thanks for anyone who can be bothered to help out here!!

[D2o]

Rg,

Twisted strand is fine for such a short run to the jack. FWIW, I don’t bother twisting or shielding such a short wire run.

I bought a spool of the shielded wire of whatever the correct gauge as supposed to be … I don’t even remember now, because it was too big and I ended up having to snap the ends of a number of strands off anyway! Now I use solid core copper phone wire all the time (thank you, wolf).

I’m trying to decipher the rest of your message about directly shielding the pups and covers.

QTB should be sufficient. However … we are nutz.

If you were to shield the pickup directly, ideally, you should not completely surround the pickup windings (bobbin) with shielding tape, you should use fine woven copper mesh cloth, and wrap all but the last ½” or so. This prevents the formation of those pesky tone sucking eddy currents that all the aliens dislike – it bugs them because they like to surreptitiously use single coils, in particular, to read our minds.

I am pleased and proud to report that they have not stolen any useful information from my mind.

The pickup cover, if it’s metal, already sucks tone – so if you were to add shielding material I don’t see that is being further detrimental, necessarily.

I have tried a few COMPLETELY unscientific experiments with pickup shielding – including wrapping the whole gall-durned thing in copper sheet (not cloth) and have not noticed any seat-of-my-pants tone change (of course, it sounds like you want very high gain … so it may have an impact on that?).

Basically – I’m not suggesting that you do any direct shielding of the pups or covers, but if you insist on shielding the pups, here is an old post of mine that describes [url=http://guitarnuts2.proboards.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=wiring&thread=4401&page=2#39065
]pickup shielding[/url] in a bit more detail (see reply #25).

Cheers,
D2o

[glow=red,2,300]EDIT:[/glow] It should have been obvious to me to include Woody’s excellent thread about Zero Hum Strat Coils.


This is the phone wire I mean:

[rabidgerry]

No I really can't be assed doing extra shielding if I don't have to. I already had painted the inside of my guitar with shielding paint before deciding to use (and apparently better) copper tape with adhessive that is conductive so I've done enough of that.

However if I still get crazy butt BUZZ I might have to try. I've always had buzz from my single coils using SHED loads of gain. Usually up full or just about. I don't get any horribleness clean. Just gain mainly and a bit o chorus and a bit o reverb to colour things.

I'm doing QTB to hopefully kill buzz if not dead but signifcantly so I don't need to use as much noise reduction.

I don't get hum unless I'm right beside my amp which I rarely venture near during band practice.

If QTB cuts noise ratio I'll be very happy. If it does not then I will be looking for other ways, cause noiseless pups and stuff like that is out of the question for me. I believe in the QTB though.

Ok thanks for the link on shielding pups.

Can I ask why use that phone wire? I'll buy a foot of that if someone convinces me as to why.

Say I decide to just rap the input jack wires, it wont matter that there is no shield around it that would normally get connected to the ground input jack tab also?

[D2o]

I use phone wire because it is thin, solid, and rigid – all of which makes it generally easy to work with (but occasionally causes a huge pain in the butt – working on hollowbodies, for example, where a little give in the wire is better than rigidity).

Say I decide to just rap the input jack wires, it wont matter that there is no shield around it that would normally get connected to the ground input jack tab also?

Eh?

Twist’em, you mean? There is no need to have anything other than signal and signal return going to the jack.

By the way, I hope you don’t mind my minor correction in your terminology: it’s an output jack – the signal is sent out to the amp to be amplified and bug your neighbours.

Having said that, if you can play your guitar as well as I suspect, you can call the damned jack "Alice" for all I care.

Cheers,
D2o

[newey]

I know Jack, and he doesn't like being called "Alice". ;D

Gerry-

If you're into using high gain, you're going to add noise to the signal. No amount of shielding is going to make a high gain set-up completely quiet.

In shielding one of my Strat-ish guitars, it had a good deal of hum when playing clean, even at low volumes. Shielding cured that, it's now dead quiet played clean, even at fairly high levels. But when I hit the 'ol footswitch, it becomes pretty noisy with the gain on the amp. Same thing with boost pedals and the like.

Now, whether the noise is somewhat less, with the gain on, than it would be if not shielded, I don't know. Suffice to say the gain adds noise regardless.

So, you may not experience a whole lot of difference using high gain.

[ashcatlt]

Well, the circuits used to create the gain probably will add some noise. Anything you add to the signal chain must add some noise.

Gain alone, though, is simply another word for amplification. It makes everything louder, both the sounds we want and the sounds we don't want - what we call noise. Clean gain will not change the S/N ratio (except for whatever small amount of noise is added by the circuit), meaning that if the noise is acceptable when you're playing at low gain, it should also be acceptable at high gain as well.

When we say "high gain" we're actually talking about dirty gain, non-linear gain, distortion. This is an extreme form of compression, which impacts the dynamic range of the signal. In general you are amplifying the quieter parts of the signal more than than the louder parts. This reduces S/N ratio and can make an otherwise acceptable noise level become annoying.

I'm aware that most folks around here understand this distinction, but I thought it was worth pointing out, for the few to whom this might be new information.

As we say all the time around here, the best you can hope for in combating noise is good enough. By that, I mean that the noise should be low enough as to be masked by the desired (string) signal when playing. For the times you're not playing, there are such things as switches and knobs.

[rabidgerry]

Feb 4, 2010 14:52:46 GMT -5 D2o said:

I use phone wire because it is thin, solid, and rigid – all of which makes it generally easy to work with (but occasionally causes a huge pain in the butt – working on hollowbodies, for example, where a little give in the wire is better than rigidity).

Say I decide to just rap the input jack wires, it wont matter that there is no shield around it that would normally get connected to the ground input jack tab also?

Eh?

Yeah I mean twist em, and what I meant by the shield thing was because if I used a piece of twin conductor, that was shielded, the shield would also get connected to the output jacks ground tab according the the QTB instructions I've got at home. But then left taped up inside the guitar (not attached to anything inside.

So I was just asking that it wont matter that the twisted wires wont have a seperate shield around them?

Wire thickness for the wires in the output jack run aren't important then?

Feb 4, 2010 14:52:46 GMT -5 D2o said:

Twist’em, you mean? There is no need to have anything other than signal and signal return going to the jack.

Yip twist 'em like hell!!

Feb 4, 2010 14:52:46 GMT -5 D2o said:

By the way, I hope you don’t mind my minor correction in your terminology: it’s an output jack – the signal is sent out to the amp to be amplified and bug your neighbours.

Don't mind at all!!! But I prob sound stupid so I'll not do it again.

Feb 4, 2010 14:52:46 GMT -5 D2o said:

Having said that, if you can play your guitar as well as I suspect, you can call the damned jack "Alice" for all I care.

Cheers,
D2o

I'm probably really bad at playing compared to the folks on here!! I just uhhhh have always made my own stuff up, and the only songs I can play are the stuff I do in my band, but its good that I'm passing myself off on here as some good guitar player!!

here is how my guitar is wired right now



Don't forget everything is shielded with copper tape and connects like a connecty thing so it aint represented on the diagram.

Ok the weird 5 way wiring is how my Strat (bought brand new last year) was wired originally and I just kept with how it was wired, pretty much all on one side. It also had a wire going from an empty lug to the back of a tone pot which instead I just soldered to my star ground. I may have been able to remove it completely though I dunno.

Ok on top of that the results are pretty good so far. On my big rig though I have not tested it out yet so that will be the final result. But at the moment, I have been able to reduce noise gate by 20% on certain patches on my Boss GT6. Which means it definately is quieter. I may or may not decide to try shielding the pickups though.

I will wait and see what I think after my big rig test (two amps in stereo).

So watch uhhh this space!!!

[D2o]

rg,

I'm not trying to sell you on phone wire, but if you were to use it there would be no reason to be concerned that it is not robust enough.

If you are using the usual multi-strand wire, use whatever you have been using - if it will fit through the channel to the jack, it's just fine.

Whatever you use, you can just run the two wires - no shield required on such a short run.

Re: input jack: That pedal you mention probably has both an output and an input, right? - it's quite common that the jack on the guitar is referred to as input rather than output.

Now, you want to talk about sounding stupid? I should point you to my first post, in which I set everyone up to help me fix my "strat" ... which turned out to be a one humbucker, one tone, one volume setup with no pickguard - more of a tele type of setup, with a control cavity. But I digest.

By the way, I really only play my music/songs that I have written, as well ... which is why half of the classic rock song names that get batted around here whoosh right over my head.

Regarding your wiring, if it's working for you now ... stick with it for a good while until you can assess it (likes, dislikes). If you like it now, and you still do in April, sounds like it can be marked paid to account. Time will tell.

Try to take some recordings and measurements in the meantime, so that, if you do end up making changes, you have an A/B comparison afterwards.

Record a riff in each switch position (and note the level of tone, volume, etc on both the guitar and amp - and the location, and position you are from the amp, etc.).

Do whatever comes to mind as a test that will be meaningful to you.

For example, if I were to shield the pickups, I would record a riff before shielding so I could see if there was any meaningful loss of tone afterward. Similarly, I would record hum levels (with no notes played).

I might also (before shielding) do something like simply set the guitar tone and volume at 10, reduce the amp volume to zero, lean the pickup side of (plugged in) guitar against a combo amp and then slowly begin to increase volume until feedback occurs - repeating for each switch position and noting the results.

Then I can compare to determine: if the tone has changed and if I can live with it ; if the hum has decreased ; and if I can turn the amp volume up higher before any feedback occurs.

You're at the before part for the time being, but there is no harm in taking measurements just in case - it doesn't commit you to anything, but you will have that data in any case.

Cheers,
D2o

[rabidgerry]

Feb 8, 2010 15:03:10 GMT -5 D2o said:

rg,

I'm not trying to sell you on phone wire, but if you were to use it there would be no reason to be concerned that it is not robust enough.

Its ok i didn't think you were, but I'm just being OCD about having max shielding potential and what not so I was thinkin along the line that a shielded piece of wire would be better than non shielded.


I read those two links on Shielding Pickups and thoroughly had my head blown off!!!

obviously I am going to wait a while to see whether or not I wanna do that to them but one of the points I noted are that it can't be done with overwound pups which of course mine are.

I reckon I could but using tape.

I forgot to mention, since doing my QTB which is in the diagram, my pole pieves now make crazy mad moise if I touch them. They never used to.

So.......................................................................according to the links to shielding pickups I need to shield the poles. The way they discussed on those threads totally made my head melt where as a far easier solution I read else where (link below)

music-electronics-forum.com/t2114/

it said just stick a bit of copper tape aong the bottom of the pole pieces and solder a wire to the signal ground of the output jack, in my case I would just solder it to the star ground. ? Yes?? No?

Okey doke as far as that random wire I have soldered to the star ground coming from the 5way switch, do I need it??

and just to be clear all I'm really doing is trying to get rid of Buzz and noise rather than hum, I get hum if I'm unneccessarily close to my amp which I never am so I its not a problem for me. Just the old BUZZ in the back ground.

something I should held back with was whilst I was shielding I installed a 1meg audio taper for the volume pot and replaced the standard 250k one that was in there. I also replaced the the two tone knobs, I replaced the neck with a 500k Linear taper in lace of the audio taper 250k that was in there and the middle pickup tone pot with a 1meg linear taper with a 0.01 cap!! I should waited cause now playing my guitar feels a little weird. Doesn't feel as spongey or something. Hard to describe.

Oh and when I reassembled I initially had no sound apart from hiss, this was because the guitar output jacks hot side was coming into contact with the shielding inside when I plugged a guitar lead in.

[rabidgerry]

Before


With shielding paint



Now putting copper tape on with conductive adhesive on the back, it actually connects to the paint also (I checked on multi meter and it read below 2ohms, the tapes connectivity was always between 0.8 and 1.4ohms which is good No???



completed the tape



Pick gaurd without anything done



making the shield for pick gaurd


and again, cut myself in the palm of my hand on the edge of some copper tape!! Pretty sore and bled!!



and again


Finished it and reinstalled all


Needing my star ground now



Here it is the star ground bar one connection from the out put jack



Here is the finished thing without insulation



The End!!!

[D2o]

I shouldn’t have said that it “WON’T” work on over-wound pups, just that you have to use much extra care and be prepared to bail on the idea if there is insufficient room between the windings and the pup cover (this is in the context of single coils, specifically).

I accidentally broke a small winding wire in a pup once – I “pooched my pup”, as it were - so I’ve been cautious ever since. If you feel you have room, and you have no real danger of breaking a small wire in the winding – shielding is a possibility.

I use aluminum tape, which can’t be soldered, so I necessarily cannot get involved in the solder methods as outlined. One of the pictures in that link is actually from Woody’s zero hum strat coil post, here on GN2 – that’s where I’d start.

Why did you use a 1meg [edit: "tone"] pot? And a .01 cap? I wonder if the word you are looking for is “laser-cutter”? ;D Are the mad noisy pole pieces, by any chance, connected to said 1meg pot?

Do you find the tone changes very suddenly with the linear pot, or is it suitable for you? You could use a more conventional 500K audio, with a more conventional cap - .022, .033, .047 – if you feel inclined to do so.

I’m not sure about that wire running from the 5-way to the star ground. Your neck pup needs signal and signal return to complete the circuit … if the signal return ends up going from switch to switch and ultimately to star ground, I think you may need to do it that way. I am not sure, though.

As for shorting out the jack, it sounds like you’ve shielded the jack cavity. If you put a strip of electrical tape in the area where the plugged-in tip ends up, you should avoid any future problems (unless/until the tape loses adhesion some time down the road).

Great pics, by the way! Thanks for posting them.

Cheers,
D2o

[rabidgerry]

Feb 9, 2010 12:45:06 GMT -5 D2o said:

I shouldn’t have said that it “WON’T” work on over-wound pups, just that you have to use much extra care and be prepared to bail on the idea if there is insufficient room between the windings and the pup cover (this is in the context of single coils, specifically).

Ok I might try it, but the whole keep the backing on the tape and not keep the backing on the tape thing confused me. I'm not sticking anything to my coil windings, did this before and bad stuff happened. BAD STUFF

Feb 9, 2010 12:45:06 GMT -5 D2o said:

I accidentally broke a small winding wire in a pup once – I “pooched my pup”, as it were - so I’ve been cautious ever since. If you feel you have room, and you have no real danger of breaking a small wire in the winding – shielding is a possibility.

Me too!!! I'm not saying how I did it but I near cried!!! I near did it again this time when I was reinstalling everything on the pickgaurd again, my nail slipped and dug into my neck pup but it still reads 9.86k so I imagine its fine.

Feb 9, 2010 12:45:06 GMT -5 D2o said:

I use aluminum tape, which can’t be soldered, so I necessarily cannot get involved in the solder methods as outlined. One of the pictures in that link is actually from Woody’s zero hum strat coil post, here on GN2 – that’s where I’d start.

Feb 9, 2010 12:45:06 GMT -5 D2o said:

Why did you use a 1meg pot? And a .01 cap? I wonder if the word you are looking for is “laser-cutter”? ;D Are the mad noisy pole pieces, by any chance, connected to said 1meg pot?

The mad noisey pole pieces are in ze Neck and Middle pup, I can live with it i guess since I wont be touching the pieces but to be completest I'd wann fix it (yes OCD yes absolutely )

I used a 1meg pot for this pup because its 12.86k and I wanted its full range. The pup that is using the 1meg tone and 0.01 is my middle. I was going to have the 13......something k humbucker hooked up too for a tone controle but in my search to see why my guitar weren't making any noise I since severed the connection from middle pup tone tab to the bridge tab.
I used a 0.01 cap cause I had been intending the bridge to go on there also and I didn't wanna darken it too much.
I have to admit the mid pup sound way better with a 0.022 on there.


My single coils actually do not have that awful buzzy tone, thats why I bought them, the do have noise though!! These are the first pups of single coil variety that I have used that don't go "buzz saw" with mega GAIN on!! Which is what I need for the old heavy metal.

EDIT my guitar is quiet as quiet things can be clean, but thats not what I'm trying to fix, I'm just trying to quieten the noise as much as I can whilst on TONNES OF GAIN AND VOLUME so I don't need to use a lot of Noise Reduction an crap like that

Feb 9, 2010 12:45:06 GMT -5 D2o said:

Do you find the tone changes very suddenly with the linear pot, or is it suitable for you? You could use a more conventional 500K audio, with a more conventional cap - .022, .033, .047 – if you feel inclined to do so.

Yes I think I will now buy some audio tapers like those that were in before. I can live with it for now though, I actually have them all way up or all way down if I'm using them at all.

Feb 9, 2010 12:45:06 GMT -5 D2o said:

I’m not sure about that wire running from the 5-way to the star ground. Your neck pup needs signal and signal return to complete the circuit … if the signal return ends up going from switch to switch and ultimately to star ground, I think you may need to do it that way. I am not sure, though.

Totally lost now!!! I think I can remove this wire given that the switch is already connected to the shield.

Feb 9, 2010 12:45:06 GMT -5 D2o said:

As for shorting out the jack, it sounds like you’ve shielded the jack cavity. If you put a strip of electrical tape in the area where the plugged-in tip ends up, you should avoid any future problems (unless/until the tape loses adhesion some time down the road).

Done done and uhhhu done!! I will make it more when I can be arsed!! Sick of opening my poor guitar and surgeryizing it up!! But sure we're nutz here right?

Feb 9, 2010 12:45:06 GMT -5 D2o said:

Great pics, by the way! Thanks for posting them.

Cheers,
D2o

Not a problem, thought I went overkill!!! I took a million more but I wanted to be sensible!!

[D2o]

rg,

I just meant that the middle pickup on your NEW diagram is the only one that has the ground wire going directly to the star ground. I don’t know if that wire accomplishes the same thing in a roundabout manner for the neck and bridge, or what it’s purpose is, as the diagram seems to be different from the one that sumgai gave his kudos on (see below).

Don’t let me confuse you any further – better wait for input from sumgai on this issue.

Cheers,
D2o

Here is the diagram that you posted before, which sumgai gave his approval on:



Then you posted this updated one, which sumgai gave you kudos on:



And here is the latest diagram you have posted, incorporating a star ground (maybe you posted the wrong one with your most recent post?)

[newey]

RG-

You must have been up all night finishing this. Your Avatar has morphed into Nosferatu. ;D ;D

But great Pix of the mod!

[ashcatlt]

Feb 9, 2010 13:11:32 GMT -5 rabidgerry said:

Totally lost now!!! I think I can remove this wire given that the switch is already connected to the shield.

Yes, this.

That wire wouldn't normally want to be connected where your diagram shows it anyway. There's usually an extra lug somewhere on the side of the switch for frame ground, which is accomplished in your case by the copper tape.

The noise when you touch the pole pieces is coming from you. It's the opposite of the thing where you touch the grounded strings and your noise is shorted out or "dumped to ground". By touching the metal pole pieces (which apparently are not themselves grounded) your noise is being conducted and focused right where you want it the least - as close as possible to the pickup coils.

The advice you read about putting copper tape across them and grounding that is good and will work for the same reason the bridge ground works. Star ground is as good a place as any to connect this.

[sumgai]

So, since my name has been invoked several times now, I guess it's time to drop my bomb load again, eh?

;D

OK, first off, Gerry, there's good sense, and restricting your images here is a good example of that - +1 for you. However, using good sense in the NutHouse Gallery, that'll get you a big fat nothing! Take your millions of images over there, and earn even more K-points!

Second, nice images, damned nice! I think only a few others here, myself definitely not included, have done so well in showing the details we all love to see.

Third, sorry for appearing to be not "arsed" enough to answer your PM quickly. Things are shaking here in the ol' shack, and innerweb-time is not always forthcoming.

And finally..... (insert Royal Trumpeteers sounds here.....)

Yes, do remove the wire from the 5-way switch to the star ground ring. Also, you show a braided shield coming out of the Hb and going to the back of the Volume pot - why? It should go directly to the star ground ring. As it is, you're depending on the back of the pot to make contact with the pickguard shielding through the shaft/washer/nut contact point(s), whereupon said shielding then makes contact via the "cavity ground screw" to the star ground washer..... all of that's not as good as just hooking it up directly.

You spoke about severing the link between Middle and Bridge pups, thus removing the tone control capability from the Bridge pup. If you'd like to have the 2nd tone control work on the Bridge pup, you could use the "unused" section of the 5-way switch to select whether it works on the Middle pup or the Bridge pup. Just an idea.......

On the topic of buzz reduction.... just for grins, what happens if you unplug the guitar and let the cable dangle? I mean, everything else is ready to rock, the high-gain is fully operational and engaged, all that jizz-jazz..... you've merely unplugged your axe. What's happening now with the buzz? Further test: axe still unplugged, now turn off the high-gain. Any difference in the buzz?

One final note: From your photos, it looks to me like the tone capacitors could possibly be moved accidentally such that the 'hot' lead(s) might contact the pot shell(s), thus shorting out the pot - instant "Tone Suck" syndrome. You used slip-on insulation over some leads in your build, you probably should consider doing the same for these leads too, the next time you're 'arsed' to play butcher doctor and surgeryize the Beast. ;D

HTH


I'm sumgai, and I approve this message!

[rabidgerry]

Feb 9, 2010 13:52:25 GMT -5 D2o said:

Here is the diagram that you posted before, which sumgai gave his approval on:



Then you posted this updated one, which sumgai gave you kudos on:



Now Star Ground

oK I'm clearing this mess I created up first of all people.

Diagram one is correct, and so is diagram two, but note (and I think i mentioned this when I posted it) diagram two has the green and white wire on the SERIES/PARALLEL Humbucker switch swapped about as they were incorrect according to where the North and South pole finish leads of the Humbucker shoulda been (see the labels of the wires in Diagram two).

Next up:

I kinda lied about how my 5 way switch was wired in all those earlier diagrams, may be "lied" is to strong a word, let say witheld! And the reason for this was because my 5way switch is wired the way it is in diagram 3. Why did I not have all the original diagrams illustrating this? For the simple fact that I didn't want anyone who might reference this diagram in future to get confused with my "messed up" 5 wire wiring (I dunno why it was/is like this fender did it!!).

Ok I hope that whole crazy bag of turd is cleared up.

So my 5way has always been wired like that and in fact it was even weirder as fender had their original humbucker that came with the guiar wired up using lugs on the otherside of the selector (the portion that is least used according to diagram 3 above). Crazy stuff!! It was in series but was totally unlike any humbuucker wiring I've seen. They mighta used mine as some weird experiment who knows.

Actually please observe this link from Fender below:

www.fender.com/support/diagrams/pdf_temp1/stratocaster/1134700D/SD1134700DPg2.pdf

this is how it originally went guys.

Anyways, now I'll post on the other replies.

[rabidgerry]

Feb 10, 2010 2:34:22 GMT -5 sumgai said:

So, since my name has been invoked several times now, I guess it's time to drop my bomb load again, eh?

;D

OK, first off, Gerry, there's good sense, and restricting your images here is a good example of that - +1 for you. However, using good sense in the NutHouse Gallery, that'll get you a big fat nothing! Take your millions of images over there, and earn even more K-points!

So what should I do? Have I been bad or something? or are you asking for me photos? What is "- +1" aaaahhhhhh!! The fear!!

Feb 10, 2010 2:34:22 GMT -5 sumgai said:

Second, nice images, damned nice! I think only a few others here, myself definitely not included, have done so well in showing the details we all love to see.

Why thank you!!! I tried my damnedest to be complete, it got confusing after a while as I couldn't tell how far along I was at times cause they was all beginning to look the same!! Wires, more wires and copper bloody foil!! But I made sense of it. I'm actually annoyed I forgot to take one of the input jack shielding and what not!!

Feb 10, 2010 2:34:22 GMT -5 sumgai said:

Third, sorry for appearing to be not "arsed" enough to answer your PM quickly. Things are shaking here in the ol' shack, and innerweb-time is not always forthcoming.

Sorry did I appear forceful in asking for replies?? Sorry unintentional!! You've been a MASSIVE help already!!

Feb 10, 2010 2:34:22 GMT -5 sumgai said:

And finally..... (insert Royal Trumpeteers sounds here.....)

Yes, do remove the wire from the 5-way switch to the star ground ring. Also, you show a braided shield coming out of the Hb and going to the back of the Volume pot - why? It should go directly to the star ground ring. As it is, you're depending on the back of the pot to make contact with the pickguard shielding through the shaft/washer/nut contact point(s), whereupon said shielding then makes contact via the "cavity ground screw" to the star ground washer..... all of that's not as good as just hooking it up directly.

Ok I knew I could remove that wire coming from the 5way but I thought I'd ask everyone here first to be safe ;D After all the switch is connected to the shielding on ze pickgaurd and such!!

Ok the shielded braid that miraculously appeared in diagram 3 (I always has it I just was lazy) I only put to the volume pot and not the Star ground cause of the[glow=red,2,300] QTB Instructions.[/glow] But as you explained before I don't need to do that if I don't got the safety cap right?

Feb 10, 2010 2:34:22 GMT -5 sumgai said:

You spoke about severing the link between Middle and Bridge pups, thus removing the tone control capability from the Bridge pup. If you'd like to have the 2nd tone control work on the Bridge pup, you could use the "unused" section of the 5-way switch to select whether it works on the Middle pup or the Bridge pup. Just an idea.......

[glow=red,2,300]I WANT THIS!!! I WANT IT!![/glow]

Does this mean I can switch it on and off? Like make a tone for the mid and if I want make it for the bridge? This is kinda what I was after since I liked the Humbucker without anything, the sound of it I mean, but me being me would want the option of a tone control on it should I want to darken it down to hell!!

I'm up for this, please explain?

Feb 10, 2010 2:34:22 GMT -5 sumgai said:

On the topic of buzz reduction.... just for grins, what happens if you unplug the guitar and let the cable dangle? I mean, everything else is ready to rock, the high-gain is fully operational and engaged, all that jizz-jazz..... you've merely unplugged your axe. What's happening now with the buzz? Further test: axe still unplugged, now turn off the high-gain. Any difference in the buzz?

Will try this first

Feb 10, 2010 2:34:22 GMT -5 sumgai said:

One final note: From your photos, it looks to me like the tone capacitors could possibly be moved accidentally such that the 'hot' lead(s) might contact the pot shell(s), thus shorting out the pot - instant "Tone Suck" syndrome. You used slip-on insulation over some leads in your build, you probably should consider doing the same for these leads too, the next time you're 'arsed' to play butcher doctor and surgeryize the Beast. ;D

HTH


I'm sumgai, and I approve this message!

Ok I think I noticed the cap issue myself and bent it forward a little but I will check again and insulate. The insulatation used is heat shrink that is too big!! Best I had!!

Thanks

[rabidgerry]

Feb 9, 2010 21:37:35 GMT -5 newey said:

RG-

You must have been up all night finishing this. Your Avatar has morphed into Nosferatu. ;D ;D

But great Pix of the mod!

Thanks my man!!!

Its actually Lon Chaney who is playing the Phantom of the Opera in the 1929 version!! Scary Sh_t!! I could change into Nosferatu next week though who knows!! No more Slimer from Ghost Busters

And yes it took ages, my guitar told me last night it hates me for disembowelling it regularly!! I hit a slap and told it to be quiet!!

[rabidgerry]

Feb 9, 2010 23:20:23 GMT -5 ashcatlt said:

Feb 9, 2010 13:11:32 GMT -5 rabidgerry said:

Totally lost now!!! I think I can remove this wire given that the switch is already connected to the shield.

Yes, this.

That wire wouldn't normally want to be connected where your diagram shows it anyway. There's usually an extra lug somewhere on the side of the switch for frame ground, which is accomplished in your case by the copper tape.

The noise when you touch the pole pieces is coming from you. It's the opposite of the thing where you touch the grounded strings and your noise is shorted out or "dumped to ground". By touching the metal pole pieces (which apparently are not themselves grounded) your noise is being conducted and focused right where you want it the least - as close as possible to the pickup coils.

The advice you read about putting copper tape across them and grounding that is good and will work for the same reason the bridge ground works. Star ground is as good a place as any to connect this.

Thanks for that man, I needed that cleared up for me, I shall do the tape mod when I next disembowel the Strat .

[D2o]

Feb 11, 2010 12:48:37 GMT -5 rabidgerry said:

[glow=red,2,300]I WANT THIS!!! I WANT IT!![/glow]

"I WANT IT!"

... wait a minute ... where have I heard that before?

Your name isn't really gerry at all, is it? You're Baron Bomburst!

D2o

[ashcatlt]

Feb 11, 2010 12:25:19 GMT -5 rabidgerry said:

Actually please observe this link from Fender below:

www.fender.com/support/diagrams/pdf_temp1/stratocaster/1134700D/SD1134700DPg2.pdf

this is how it originally went guys.

Anyways, now I'll post on the other replies.

This actually clarifies a couple things. Fender used the "spare" side of the 5-way to split the HB in position 2 (B+M). It connects the "series connection" to ground, shorting out the "bottom coil" and leaving the "top coil" active. This is actually fairly common and desirable to many. Doesn't work for what you're doing, but it does explain that "random" ground wire. It wasn't meant as a frame ground after all.

[rabidgerry]

Feb 11, 2010 13:25:52 GMT -5 D2o said:

Feb 11, 2010 12:48:37 GMT -5 rabidgerry said:

[glow=red,2,300]I WANT THIS!!! I WANT IT!![/glow]

"I WANT IT!"

... wait a minute ... where have I heard that before?

Your name isn't really gerry at all, is it? You're Baron Bomburst!

D2o

Who am I??? hahaha, I like that name but I swear it says RABID GERRY on my birth certificate!!

No it doesn't but I thought I'd try and get away with that!!

ashcatlt:
As for that Strat WIRING LINK. I new it would help!! So I'll move that old 5 way to star ground wire and say good bye.

[sumgai]

rg,

OK, I'm all arsed up now, so I've got three potential scenarios for you.

First, we see below the more-or-less standard method of using the second pole (currently unused) of the 5-way selector. By merely running jumpers from one pole to the other, we can select either the Middle or the Bridge pups (or both) for control by the second tone pot. The upside is that when you select one single pickup, the other one doesn't also come on at the same time. (Obviously except when both are chosen.) The downside is that when you select Bridge Always On, and the 5-way pickup selector is not in the Bridge (or both) position, then the tone control does not work on the Bridge pup. This might be desirable, that would be up to you, of course.



In the next diagram, we'll use the remaining (empty) pole of that infamous 4P3T that gave us so much fun..... not. When you select Bridge Always On, the tone control becomes active, no matter which position the 5-way selector is currently sitting in. If Bridge Always On is not selected, then whenever the 5-way pickup selector chooses the Bridge pup, it will be "running wide open".



Of course, you can combine both methods as shown below, should you so choose, that won't hurt anything. However, executing this wiring option means that the Bridge pickup is always under the control of that pot - it can never "run wide open".



Keep in mind that when both tone controls are active at the same time (N+B, N+M, N+M+B), interesting tones might pop out at you. Ask JohnH about this, he's done a fair amount of experimenting on this particular phenomenon.

HTH



sumgai

[KIIMH]

Feb 14, 2010 3:44:46 GMT -5 sumgai said:

OK, I'm all arsed up now, so I've got three potential scenarios for you.

taht seem liek quiet an "ares"anal of optiosn now!

kyel

[cynical1]

Feb 14, 2010 10:45:19 GMT -5 KIIMH said:

taht seem liek quiet an "ares"anal of optiosn now!

kyel

Ha! Clever boy. Smite! Now back in your hole...

HTC1

[rabidgerry]

Ok holding the mod - aprise for a few moments till the below issues get sorted out. I'm having the worst sound ever at the moment but for the record I've addressed the issue of the extra wire coming from the 5 way selector switch, the braided wire coming from the humbucker and the possibility of the hot legs on the tone caps touching the back of the tone pots.

The guitar is still sucking turds at the minute. Something is not right. The best way that I can describe it is that the strings no matter how hard I'm playing aren't giving the same response out through the pick ups.

You know that spongeyness you get when your all saturated up on gain, well that. Even when I stick compression on its still crap sounding. On the big rig it was awful, shrill and brittle. The pups are still giving the full power so its not that they are badly wired I don't think.

The best way I can describe the effect I seem to be having is... like if you've ever experienced a poor connection somewhere along your cable and your getting like a weaker signal, and when you pluck strings its like your putting too much effort into it and getting half the response you should be getting. So gain doesn't seem as full to me.

I'd say it feels like I'm getting 75% of the signal I used to. However I see no poor output connections anywhere. I've tested on all three setups I use and its crap on them all.

(3 set ups are:

BIG RIG - 2 100WATT+ AMPS - MULTI EFFECTS - SEPERATE COMPRESSOR

SMALL RIG - 2 SMALL PRACTICE AMPS - DIFFERENT MULTI EFFECTS PEDAL

RECORDING RIG - RECORDING UNIT - GUITAR DIRECT IN)

Its best on my home practice set up and recording unit set up but it still sucking.

I have to add also that the noise and what not I was experiencing (hum buzz and crap like that) is noteably reduced. How I was keeping tabs on this was by plugging direct in to my recording unit - picking a distortion patch - removing the noise gate - then recording the noise I was picking up.

Well I did the same over the weekend and yes the noise is way down, its pretty acceptable without any noise reduction on at all.

On my big rig, buzz and hum and all kindsa a crap! Terrible, pretty much, so I can only put that down to a crappy set up of pedals I'm using.

As for the horrible brittle tone I can only think that the tone pots I put in are the problem


or


I've since made the lugs on my 5 way selector a little loose, could this be a problem? Haven't noticed any problems selecting, no crackles or shorting or anything like that, but I thought a poor connection may result in slightly sucky tone.

No more mods till I ge this sorted out.

I'm gonna change the tone pots back and leave the 1 meg audio taper volume in.

I'm reluctant to believe the pots are the issue however since I upgraded another strat I own with 3 x 1 meg pots (it does have different pups in there of course) and the higher value pots did nothing other than make the guitar have more air to play with and it sounds great.

DRAT

not happy