santellan
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Post by santellan on Oct 7, 2009 19:07:05 GMT -5
Hi Guys, I am trying to combine the 7 sounds wiring scheme with a fulltime blower switch in the Bridge positions. Can you find any problems with my schematic?
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Post by newey on Oct 7, 2009 19:35:32 GMT -5
Santellan-
First, your table of positions doesn't correspond to the numbers on the lugs of the switch, which is confusing. I understand your table to be in reference to how the switch is physically mounted in the guitar, but this is a schematic, so it's a bit tough that the neck is at "position 1" but is wired into lug "3A". But that's more of an orientation issue.
More basically, your table tells me that SW 1 is to be a "bridge on" switch, but your schematic shows it as controlling the neck pickup. And since the switch connects to the "blower" line, in position 1 with SW1 on, you'll have neck to the blower.
Also, have you considered that, in position 4, the "blown" bridge pup is likely to swamp out the middle?
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santellan
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Post by santellan on Oct 7, 2009 20:40:55 GMT -5
Here's the updated schematic with 5 way switch renumbered. The table is how I think it works. I would rather not have the blower on except for on position 5. Maybe a dpdt in place of the spdt would help.
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Post by newey on Oct 7, 2009 21:50:51 GMT -5
An improvement on the numbering, but I'm still not seeing how SW 1 is switching in the bridge. I see this giving the following: W/ SW 1 off: 1) N 2) N+M 3) M 4) M+B (Blown) 5) B (Blown) W/ SW 1 on: 1) N (Blown- takes the path of least resistance) 2) N (Blown) + M 3) N (Blown) + M 4) N (Blown) +M +B (Blown) 5) N (Blown) + B (Blown) I could be wrong on this, I'm sure I'll get corrected if I am!
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santellan
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Post by santellan on Oct 7, 2009 22:23:49 GMT -5
Brain Fart. Here's the latest with Bridge on switch corrected I've been too focused on the blower switch aspect
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Post by newey on Oct 7, 2009 22:41:02 GMT -5
Santellan-
I think that's got the goods, but let someone else weigh in before you fire up the soldering iron.
This should give you what the table shows. For completeness sake, we could add that pos. 3 w/ SW1 on gives M+B (no blower); pos. 4 gives M + B (blower) regardless of the position of SW 1.
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Post by sumgai on Oct 8, 2009 0:43:16 GMT -5
santellan, A few small things to consider.... One, your right-hand table isn't just "Controls", it's "Tone Controls". Two, in Position 2, both T1 and T2 will affect the tone, not just one or the other. The pups are in parallel, hence the two tone controls are also in parallel, the classic definition of the word "and". Three, in Position 4, it's kinda pointless to say "Middle only", that's assumed, as it was in Position 3 (and as T1 was assumed to be Neck Only in Position 1). Four, the pot terminals should not be numbered in the same direction, top to bottom. As it stands now, the volume is wired such that turning the wiper (2) toward 3 gives the maximum volume. This leads one to think that turning the tone control(s) towards 3 would give you the maximum treble. (It's habitual, you know. ) However, in your layout, turning the wiper (2) all the way toward 3 kills just about all the treble frequencies - the exact opposite of what one expects to happen. The wiring direction can stay the same, just reverse the terminal numbers on either the volume pot or the two tone pots, and all will be well. Five, newey's correct, in Position 4, the Bridge will easily override the Middle pickup, if the main volume control is not set pretty close to 10. Fortunately you do have Position 3, with S1 turned on, that gets you a more balanced tonality. But from an operational standpoint, it might take awhile to get used to this workaround. HTH sumgai
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santellan
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Post by santellan on Oct 8, 2009 11:16:10 GMT -5
Newey and Sumgai thanks for your input. Here's the updated drawing with the circuit so far. I would like to remove the blower from position 4 someway. Any ideas.
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Post by sydsbluesky on Oct 8, 2009 11:39:43 GMT -5
Okay... I know I don't spend much time in this part of the forum, and if you're confused as to why, then you're about to be enlightened.
WT_ is a blower switch? What does "Blown" mean?
When I see "blower" I think turbo.
Don't get me wrong, I'll take forced induction over naturally aspirated six days of the week, but unless Fender called up Volkswagon and added a 2.0T trim to the strat(owagon) lineup, I'm confused as to what this means.
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Post by ashcatlt on Oct 8, 2009 12:10:18 GMT -5
In this case it means that when the Bridge pickup is selected alone it will bypass all controls and go straight to the output.
The tone controls are going to act something like Master tones in any situation where they are selected (including those marked as "blown" in the schematic. Turning down the Volume control will help to isolate the bridge pickup from the Tone control.
Unfortunately, though, the "blower" position does not completely disconnect the Bridge pickup from the Volume. There may not be much overall volume reduction until it's turned way down, but it will reduce the impedance the pickup "sees", increasing the load and reducing high frequency content.
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Post by wolf on Oct 8, 2009 13:40:09 GMT -5
santellanJust wondering if you want to install a solo switch instead. If you go here: www.1728.com/guitar4.htmand scroll down to the middle section, you'll see a diagram for something similar to what you describe.
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santellan
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Post by santellan on Oct 8, 2009 14:41:05 GMT -5
Wolf,
Nice job on your solo switch I really like it.
Since I am limited to using only one dpdt push-push switch it appears that I would have to choose between solo or bridge on function.
Or could I have both?
Thanks santellan
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Post by wolf on Oct 8, 2009 16:54:25 GMT -5
santellan
Well, thanks. I think you are right. If you are using just one switch you can't wire in a "Solo Switch" as well as a "Bridge On Switch".
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Post by newey on Oct 8, 2009 19:57:19 GMT -5
Well, with one push/pull, you can have "bridge on" + "blower" both, but not either /or. This would give all std Strat selections with SW 1 down, and "Blown Bridge On" with the switch up, giving: 1) N + Br (blown) 2) N + M + B (blown) 3) M + B (blown) 4) M + B (blown) 5) B (blown) Not exactly what you want, and it has redundant positions at 3 and 4 with the switch up. But I think that's the closest you can do with just a single push/pull.
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Post by sumgai on Oct 8, 2009 22:59:14 GMT -5
I would like to remove the blower from position 4 someway. Any ideas. ( Edit: sorry, newey, I didn't see your post when I started, and got sidetracked before I could finish and post. Didn't mean to step on your toes, buddy. ) Hehehe, I thought you'd never ask. Yes, it can be done, with what you've already got in hand. Watch this: When you are in "somewhat normal" mode (all things being relative ), SW1 is taking the Bridge "hot" from terminal 2 to terminal 3, and thence on to the pickup selector switch as before. But when you flip SW1 to 'Bridge Always On', that connection is broken. You now have the Bridge always on, but it will never be "Blown" - all 5 selector positions will go through the volume control. I believe you asked "only" for a way to remove the Bridge Blown in position 4, and this will do it, but it also affects position 5, so you have to think about the utility of this mod, vis-a-vis how your fingers operate to get to the tonality you want at a given moment. HTH! sumgai
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santellan
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Post by santellan on Oct 9, 2009 10:41:32 GMT -5
Yahoo, that's pretty close sumgai. I will update the schematic and post it later today.
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santellan
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Post by santellan on Oct 9, 2009 13:51:30 GMT -5
Ok, Sumgai I took you concept and expanded on it by using the second half of a dpdt switch to toggle the CB tab between direct out & common. I think this should fix position 3 with the switch on. This still leaves me the problem of position 4 with the switch off having the blower switch on. Closer anyway
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Post by sumgai on Oct 9, 2009 15:16:40 GMT -5
santa, As I see it, you've taken a step sideways. At least it wasn't backwards. The main difference between your latest mod and mine is the truth table - I left the expected M+B in both positions 3 and 4, which one expects when one uses a Bridge Always On arrangement. What you've done is to sort of "force" an unexpected "Middle only" in position 3, even when the Bridge Always On switch is engaged. I consider that anti-intuitive, to say the least. None the less, your circuit works, and if that's what you want, then who am I to tell you it's wrong? But the other thing to point out is that you've now complicated it with another switch section (you already had an SPDT on hand, now you have to procure a DPDT, thus wasting the SPDT (for this project)), not to mention all the extra wiring. I must say, I liked your earlier incarnation better, both from the standpoint of implementation and that of operation. It does boil down to design philosophy. You have two separate functions that have no physical relation, yet you want to relate them by tying them both to the same physical switch. As things stand, with the current switch (SPDT or DPDT), you must compromise something. It doesn't matter what, where or how that compromise occurs, what matters is that some compromise will have to be made, it's the nature of the beast. You understand. However, since you've demonstrated a willingness to expand the switch itself beyond SPDT, why not consider a 3-position toggle switch? On-on-on might awaken some possibilities, no? You know where to hail me, if so desired. sumgai
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Post by newey on Oct 9, 2009 15:37:41 GMT -5
SG-
Santellan indicated earlier that he was limited to the use of a push/pull pot, hence my DPDT version. Although he only needed a SP in his initial version, he apparently was contemplating having a p/p all along.
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santellan
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Post by santellan on Oct 9, 2009 16:23:38 GMT -5
Just fyi I have a dpdt push-push switch which I will be using on this wiring.
I agree with you Sumgai that is better serve to have leave position 3 with SW1 on, as the M&B combo.
What I was playing around with is how can I used the other half of the switch to have position 4 with the SW1 off be M&B with no blower switch.
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Post by JohnH on Oct 9, 2009 17:48:24 GMT -5
I can see the intent, to have what maybe the most useful settings of volume-controlled N, N+M, M, together with full volume B, all reachable just with the 5way switch and no other controls needed to be adjusted while playing. But with only one switch added, still getting the bridge-on functions too.
However I think theres one further issue that should be noted with the current version. The volume pot is always connected from output to ground, even in blower mode. One likely scenario for this set-up would be to set a low volume rhythm sound on the neck, and be able to switch to a full volume bridge sound for a lead, using just the 5way. But in that case, the bridge pickup is loaded by part of the volume pot, and its a low resistance so high tone-sucking load, if the neck was set for low volume.
I cant see how to fully fix this issue using the dpdt and standard 5- way switch, although if the second half of the 5way is used to assist the dpdt by directing where the output comes from, only the 'blown' M+B position would still have the problem (if you judge it to be a problem)
John
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santellan
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Post by santellan on Oct 9, 2009 18:33:30 GMT -5
Thanks for the help John.
I could live with the M+B blown position if I could accomplish the rest. What modifications do I need to make to the schematic?
S
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Post by JohnH on Oct 9, 2009 18:51:12 GMT -5
I cant describe it further without a drawing - Ill see if I can post a rough sketch. (EDIT - here it is) Meantime - just a thought: have you considered an arrangement with two volume controls and one master tone - one volume controls bridge, the other controls middle and neck. That lets you set up your two volumes for rythm and lead - no extra switches. Then add to that, one dpdt, either to do bridge on (allowing you to make blended combos of neck and bridge - bridge plus a bit of neck is really good,) or use it to do series/parallel - a much greater range of sounds, now with bridge and neck in series combos. The former and the latter are already done - see here: Two Volume Strat Just lose the phase switch if not wanted. John
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santellan
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Post by santellan on Oct 10, 2009 3:11:16 GMT -5
John I updated my schematic with your changes. If it meets your intent then consider this exercise done. Thanks to everyone for your help
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Post by sumgai on Oct 10, 2009 3:19:09 GMT -5
John, I'll have to agree with your assesment about the potential tone-suck, and in general your solution is good, but I think there are still some faults. From what I make of it, when you flip SW1 to Blower mode, the Middle and Bridge pickups are both sent straight out to the jack in position 4. This didn't happen in santellan's latest version but one, the one that I revised on the previous page. Also, again in position 4, the Middle pup connected to 3B "leaks" back to the volume control, obviating your intended solution for that position. I think I can see how to fix all this, but since this is your baby, I'll not step on your toes. Go for it! ;D sumgai EDIT: Ah, the benefits of being ninja'd.... santellan, I suggest that you let John work through what I said above. While all of the solutions presented over the last several posts are workable, each has something to think about - that compromise thing again, we just can't seem to get away from it, can we? I think John can pull the rabbit all the way out of the hat, so keep the soldering iron cool for a bit yet, OK?
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Post by JohnH on Oct 10, 2009 5:27:38 GMT -5
Sumgai - in post 20 I already pointed out that the M+B (ie position 4) was going to be hard to fix with respect to disconnecting the volume pot to get an uncompromised blower. To get at least the other 4 settings working well, I had to use up half of the 5 way - so I still cant see how to get that position 4 just right and I wont get much more spare time in the next few days.
So if you can see how - please feel free to have a go!
Santellan - your latest seems to match my scribble
John
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Post by ashcatlt on Oct 10, 2009 7:46:55 GMT -5
Just wanted to mention that I talked about the tone-suck thing in reply #9. Didn't offer a solution, thouigh.
I had something worked out with a true DP3T, but that was before the P/P requirement was called out. I like the way JohnH has implemented this.
Oh, I also mentioned the "master tone" action before sumgai...
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Post by sumgai on Oct 10, 2009 12:55:44 GMT -5
Yes, ash, you did mention it a priori. But if we keep hammering at it from different angles, then at some point it's going to get the attention it needs in order to fix it. John, ditto. As I see it, there is an easy fix, but it's not one that santellan is likely to wish for. The use of the old-standard selector switch (3 terminals and 5 position ) is an indication that he wishes to make this a modification for the lowest-common-denominator found in the wilds of guitar-land. That doesn't eliminate the use of newer switches, but forcing one to use a newer switch severely cuts the market for this mod - all the old-style switch users will be left out, unless they are willing both to spend even more money for the upgrade, and to do a whole lot more re-wiring than just dropping in this module. I like it that he's trying to keep it as inexpensive and easy to install as possible, to appeal to the widest possible market. However, I now want to address another question, this time to: santellan, Is there an empirical reason for sticking with just one switch? Are you absodamnlutely positive that no one will buy your new rig if it's got two switches? Here's a suggestion for ya.... how about offering it in two versions, one with jumpers to select SW1's function (either Blower or Bridge On, can't have both), and another version that allows for both switches to be mounted. For manufacturing purposes, you could have both versions use the same board, the difference being the components sold with the board to make the upgrade. But once users catch wise to that, then your market for the more expensive version deteriorates..... two boards really would be the better solution, even if it's a bit more hassle on the manufacturing end. I'm not saying anything here, ya know, I'm just saying, that's all. ;D HTH sumgai
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santellan
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Post by santellan on Oct 10, 2009 22:17:05 GMT -5
Good questions Sumgai.
One of the most repeated comments I have received on my Toneshaper board is on how they like the fact that it does not require any switches. All of the functionality is hidden behind a simple familiar interface.
The problem I have is that I cannot add anymore options with the current setup. This is why I am considering a new design utilizing a switch.
I have heard enough comments about push/pull pots and issues with caps coming off, not being able to lift it easily while playing, mechanical not fitting in the body cavity and the pots being of poor quality. To avoid this issue I have found a dpdt push push switch that matches the height of my current pots so that it still retains that easy to install aspect.
This is why I am restricting the wiring to this switch. I am also planning on using a dipswitch to change the functionality of this switch to get more options. I can replace the standard 5 way with a superswitch if it allows the ability to have more options as well.
Would using a superswitch help in this case? I will also search for a 3pdt switch as well but for now dpdt is it.
Thanks, santellan
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Post by sumgai on Oct 10, 2009 23:40:00 GMT -5
santa,
If you think your market will bear it, then I'd recommend a 5-way switch that has 5 solder terminals per pole, not one that relies on internal shorting in positions 2 & 4 to give the expected combos. This will eliminate our frustrations over the Blower in position 4 (tone leak-back, volume differential, etc.). It doesn't even have to be a superswitch, the regular 2P5T will do nicely.
At that point, John's drawing (after he fixes it (or someone else does, but it does need a repair)) would address all your desires.
I don't know, I've never seen one of your kits, but I'll assume that you do as much wiring ahead of time as possible before you ship it, am I correct? Then the total amount of work the buyer has to do to install it really isn't all that much different from using their old switch, and they get a new switch to boot. What's not to like? ;D
HTH
sumgai
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