another humming/buzzing/sheilding/grounding

[the_uprising]

I have a humbucker that i'm trying to wire up. More specifically i have a humbucker that hums... I got to this conclusion by:

Wiring it up the way i originally had in mind-

1 vol
1 3 way (single pole) switch
to output

-buzz(kill)-

then, confused i took out the 3 way.

-buzz-

then frustrated, i took out both the 3 way and the volume and wired it directly to the jack.

-buzz-

So maybe i don't understand as much as i thought i did. What’s new right? The pickup i have is a neck pickup from an Ibanez S-Series named Infinity 1. It has 2 leads (*EDIT*GreenWhite & Red) and a shield. From what i could put together each of the colors was for each of the top and bottom coils.

I cut out a place for it in a Epiphone Biscuit and tried to use the output jack that i had previously used for the transducer (the transducer will no longer be used). The reason for the 3 way is that on the Ibanez it is wired to split the bottom coil to use with the middle single coil. So i thought that would just be fun. But now that i have a more basic problem than getting all the wires in all the right places, i figure i'm going to need to work from the ground up.

This weekend i didn't have access to work on it so i contemplated and looked some things up and thought i might have just not added some wires to the 3 way. Tried it with the same results. At that point is when i started to deconstruct, taking away piece after piece.

I was reading about the single coils (Strat and Tele etc) and remembered (after reading) about shielding vs. grounding. When i was reading it before it seemed like shielding was just part of the grounding process. But now it seems it may be two different things. Maybe i just misread it because i only have a few minutes left on this public library computer. But i was going to go back and try to rap the tin foil around the humbucker and see if that makes a difference.

I was also reading that Stew Mac set of articles and it was saying that hand wound (cheaper?) humbuckers may be more susceptible to not being all they can be (as far as bucking that hum is concerned). Perhaps that is the case?

Am i wrong in assuming that the two colored leads are both outputs (hot)?

If there is any ideas that would save me some hair... if you know what i mean.

Thanks!

-d

[newey]

Am i wrong in assuming that the two colored leads are both outputs (hot)?

Are you wrong? It depends. . .

Most HBs with 2 wires and a bare wire are 2-conductor pickups; the bare wire is a shield which is always wired to ground and doesn't carry any signal. One of the 2 insulated wires is then the "hot" and the other is the "ground". If it's a 2 conductor HB, then you're wrong.

But a 2-conductor HB can't be split, since the 2 coils are internally wired together (there's really 4 wires, but 2 are hidden.) And you indicate that this one originally had a split-coil set-up.

This would imply that it's one of those (relatively) rare birds known as a "3-conductor" HB. If so, then you're right- both coils share the bare wire as a ground, and each coil has an insulated "hot" wire.

Are you sure the 3-way switch was to split the coils? Do you have a picture or diagram of the original wiring? And, can you show us how you have it wired now?

It is also possible that one or the other coil is bad. Do you have a multimeter? If so, various checks can be done. Even if you don't, you can use a screwdriver or other metal object to tap each coil to see if it is active.

[the_uprising]

So this is the original S-Series Ibanez wiring:



Sorry it's a little sloppy and only a diagram without schematics. But i think you can imagine how easy it may have looked to just put in a 3 way for what appears to be top coil, bottom coil, and full HB. Or at least 1 of the two coils and HB. I'll draw up a quick diagram of how i wired the Epiphone...

[the_uprising]

Figure 1 is what i tried first. Figure 2 is what i tried second when i thought that it was just the wiring that i had wrong.

I also forgot to mention before that i had to solder some jumper wires to make them long enough to reach the components. I was thinking that maybe a shotty connection could be the culprit of the hum? I'm hoping that there's someone that could point me in the right direction.

[newey]

I was thinking that maybe a shotty connection could be the culprit of the hum?

Possibly. You can hit each of those again with your iron easily enough to see. A bad connection any where could do it, but since you've rewired the whole thing pretty much except (I assume) the extension wires, that's a good place to start.

Your first diagram is the one you want; the second won't split the coils, but will give you "all humbucker all the time". You don't even need the switch to accomplish that!

Do you know that this pickup was (quietly) operating when in the Ibby S?

This is indeed a 3-conductor HB, then. So you were right!

[ashcatlt]

According to the Ibanez diagram, the red wire is going to be the "series link". White is the "top" of the coil stack, and bare is the "bottom".

Your figure 1 should give:
HB, bottom coil (top shorted), bottom coil (top hanging)

We'd expect some noise in two of these positions.

I have to disagree with newey, though, in that I believe figure 2 gives all bottom coil (top shorted) all the time. I would expect noise all the time.

Now, I notice that you said there was a green wire involved. That ain't in the Ibanez scheme.


EDIT - The above assumes that the HB is wired with both coils in series (as normal). If these things are internally wired in parallel, then newey is probably right. The below paragraph is true either way.


A meter would make this a whole lot easier. You have one, no? If it's not auto-ranging, put it in the 20KΩ range and measure between the bare and each of the other wires. Report your findings.

[newey]

According to the Ibanez diagram, the red wire is going to be the "series link". White is the "top" of the coil stack, and bare is the "bottom".

If Ash is correct that the red is the series link, then I've been reading the wires wrong. I was assuming otherwise. In which case, Ash is also right about the diagrams when he says:

Your figure 1 should give:
HB, bottom coil (top shorted), bottom coil (top hanging)

We'd expect some noise in two of these positions.

I have to disagree with newey, though, in that I believe figure 2 gives all bottom coil (top shorted) all the time. I would expect noise all the time.

But, if the buzz is from either single coil operation or a hanging coil, then when Risin' did this:

then frustrated, i took out both the 3 way and the volume and wired it directly to the jack.

-buzz-

he should have eliminated the buzz (assuming that was wired so as to give HB operation).

If Ash is correct (and I think he is), then wiring the white to the output jack hot, and wiring the bare to the barrel, leaving the red wire unconnected, ought to give you both humbucker coils in series (I think!). If you still have the buzz when wired like this, and after double-checking your extension wires' connections, then I'm beginning to think bad pickup.

Did you check to see if both coils were in fact active?

And, yeah, a meter would be helpful.

[the_uprising]

Yeah, i have a meter that i can use. Today wasn't the day to do that though. Tomorrow i am going in to check it out. I was going to ask what Ohm-age i should try, so thanks for answering before i asked.

I was thinking about it earlier today when i woke up and as far as i remember there was nothing active in the circuit. I could be wrong but i will know for sure tomorrow.

I'll check the extensions and try the red wire undone.

Now, I notice that you said there was a green wire involved. That ain't in the Ibanez scheme.

Maybe i misspoke. The only green i meant was the green cable (which contained the shield, white and green wires) coming from the bridge HB.

I've been having a feeling that it is just the simplest of things and just a bad solder connecting the extensions. We'll see in another 12 or so hours...

Thanks for the replies so far. I'm hoping to get it off the ground before we go on tour next week. I already found failure today in a makeshift banjo pickup. Let's hope i have more luck with what i thought was going to be the simpler project.

-d

[ashcatlt]

Feb 4, 2010 0:37:14 GMT -5 the_uprising said:

I was thinking about it earlier today when i woke up and as far as i remember there was nothing active in the circuit. I could be wrong but i will know for sure tomorrow.

Pretty sure newey meant active as in working.

Maybe i misspoke. The only green i meant was the green cable (which contained the shield, white and green wires) coming from the bridge HB.

If I wasn't pretty sure that this was a simple matter of thinking faster than you type (and not proof-reading) I'd say it confuses me even more.

Get out that meter. You'll get the most accurate resistance readings by testing the pickup disconnected from the rest of the circuit, but we actually might get a better idea re: what's gone wrong if you simply test across the output jack (tip to barrel) in each switch position. Volume and Tone (if currently connected) at 10, please.

[newey]

Yes, poor choice of word, I meant are both coils operational?

And, I take it that the vol and tone controls and the switch are still currently out of the picture and that it's still wired directly to the output jack? In which case, the check is easily done, just measure across the jack.

[the_uprising]

If I wasn't pretty sure that this was a simple matter of thinking faster than you type (and not proof-reading) I'd say it confuses me even more.

I think i may have some kind of temporary lapse of color blindness because i looked back and edited where you read green and looked at my notes from the multimeter tests today and realized that, again, in stead of writing White, i wrote Green. Anyway. Results.

HB connected directly to jack (both White & Red leads): 6.66
HB disconnected and testing just Ground and Red: 6.66
HB disconnected and testing just ground and White: 13.00 - 13.19

I took the HB out as well as the jack and ran some tests plugged into the amp and got similar results to when it was connected to the 3 way. Any analysis?

[ashcatlt]

^This^ means I was right, you've got both coils in series, with the red wire as the "series link".

That means that your figure 2 is only one coil, which cannot be humbucking.

It also means (I think) that you need 2 poles on the switch to be able to choose between the two coils, and have the full HB as an option.

When you had it wired directly to the output jack, the red wire was connected to the white and then to the "hot" output lug, right? That shorts one coil, and also cannot be humbucking.

I think, if you're going to split the HB, you're going to want to shield the thing.

[newey]

Ash is right (again!), in that when you wired both wires to the jack hot, you don't have the full HB, and you have buzz, which a SC may give.

But as long as you're in there, you can wire it directly to out with the full HB (white and bare only) to see if the noise level drops. If it does, it's the single coil noise, and shielding can be expected to improve things. If you still have unacceptable noise with the full HB, then this is just one noisy HB.

As far as wiring this for the coil split, you said you mounted this in an "Epiphone Biscuit". I confess to having no idea what that is. Is it some type of biscuit-cone resonator?

The reason I ask is that, if this is mounted neck-ish, the difference in the 2 coils appears to be minimal (i.e., both coils =13K+, one is 6.66K, so the other coil is similar if not identical to the 6.66K value).

Splitting HB coils to choose each of the 2 may be worthwhile in a bridge pickup, where the effect of the slight difference in position of the coils is magnified, tonewise. But the more neckwards the pup is mounted, the less difference there will be between the sound of 2 coils.

Unless it's at the bridge, you may want to consider whether it's worth splitting both coils individually versus just splitting one.

[the_uprising]

Yeah, after trying it so many different ways i was beginning to think that i was getting only single coil type of noise. Splitting the HB into a SC was just a novelty mostly. There was an idea of possibly getting a P-90 rail later that could possibly use a switch so i figured that having a switch now would just be in preparation.

The main thing that i am not understanding is how little my hum is being bucked. It was making sense in my mind earlier today that if i just connected one of the two leads the hum might sound more "bucked". But it seemed to be exactly the same. However i only had one colored lead at a time to the hot output lug with the other wire not attached to anything. Could i have done something differently? Am i missing something that has already been said?

And yes it is a Biscuit resonator. The other guitarist is using a Jay Turser resonator with a neck HB. We had that transducer on the cone as i wrote before, but he has only been using that HB lately. So to get a backup going for tour i have been working on this.

I also checked the extensions with no sign of any fouled solder connections. I was hoping for an easy explanation but haven't seemed to come a crossed one yet.

So, unless there is something that i've missed so far, the only way to fix the main problem (which is the humming) is to shield the HB. And that isn't even a guaranteed fix right? I suppose since it's late there's a good possibility of not getting a reply and i'll just have to see tomorrow morning...

[the_uprising]

Got it! Thanks guys, it's perfect. Red wire hanging and White wire to the Volume. No 3 way for now. I watched a video on the p-90 rail and it looks even better. So maybe sometime we can upgrade. But thanks again. I knew i came to the right people. Maybe if i have time later i'll post a picture. But for now i'm running 20 min. late...