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Post by newey on Mar 27, 2010 21:25:56 GMT -5
For a while, I've confronted a problem with recording into the computer, namely that all my gear is downstairs and the PC is upstairs. What recording I've been doing has mostly been direct in, since lugging an amp upstairs to mic is a PITA.
I thought of putting a 2nd PC in the basement for recording use only, but space is at a premium there already. Seems to me, what I need is one of those little digital recorders, then I can just run it upstairs and load whatever tracks into the computer for editing.
Anyone use one of these? Any recommendations?
These seem to break down into 2 basic styles- either a 2 track pocket-sized unit with mostly menu-driven setup and onboard condenser mics, or a mini-mixer board style with 4 or 8 tracks, which are larger but have actual knobs to twist.
I probably don't really need 4 or 8 tracks, I don't know how much mixing I would do on the unit itself as opposed to on the PC.
How is the sound quality on these things? Are the internal condenser mics worth a damn, or should I plan on using external mics?
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Post by sumgai on Mar 27, 2010 22:15:30 GMT -5
newey, Try Zoom's H2. My former lead guitarist has one, she got it maybe two years ago on the recommendation of a mutual friend. I always thought it sounded pretty good, even with just the built-in condenser mic's. Amazon has the thing ( here), in a package with some other stuff. I'm sure you can find it elsewhere, and perhaps for less, or without the extra goodies, but I liked the picture, and Amazon always loads quickly for me.  HTH sumgai |
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Post by ux4484 on Mar 28, 2010 17:04:34 GMT -5
Got an iPod touch?
Multiple apps to do the job, I use gig baby, included drum tracks... not bad, but the export feature sucks.
There are even jack adapters and effects for/in some of the apps.
Quality with my headphone mic is usable for voice and acoustic. Four track recorder for a buck... Can't go wrong.
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Post by newey on Mar 28, 2010 18:23:39 GMT -5
Hi Ux! Nope, no ipod. I put 2GB worth of music on my phone, so I use that instead of an mp3 player.
For all I know, there may be a recording app for the phone- but the internal memory wouldn't be sufficient, and there's no card slot.
I'm following a few of these on EBay, we'll see where the prices head.
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Post by ashcatlt on Mar 28, 2010 23:07:37 GMT -5
Heck with an iPod touch, a wireless router, and a snake, you could record to the desktop upstairs. There are free VNC clients for the iTouch/iPhone and free servers for the machine. Allows you to take over the computer (see the desktop, mouse around...) from the handheld device. I honestly have not yet tried this with my recording machine, but it's one of the big reasons I got my iPhone, and I use it as a remote control for my living room PC (read: entertainment center) to very good effect.
I think the VNC even has a setting where you can lock up the physical keyboard/mouse when the client is connected, so's the wife can't accidentally mess up your session. Of course, she's still closer to the power switch!
I've never really messed with standalone recorders. Well, I've got a Fostex 24 track hard-disk recorder, but...
Most of the "field recorders" have stereo external inputs for the times when the internal mics won't cut it. You'll need both mics and pre-amps (or suitable DI sources) to take advantage of these, though. My dad uses an M-Audio box to capture his performances. As with anything else, the quality of the source, the acoustics of the room, and the location of the mic are important factors, but I don't think the mic/preamps/converters in most of the decent versions of these are too much lacking.
Do you have a video camera? The newer digital versions have stereo mics, preamps, and compressor/limiters built in and record to at least CD quality. I've been using this method "when all else fails" for years. Many digital cameras nowadays also have built in mics, but very rarely have the compressor/limiter, which means that with anything more energetic than a mild fart, you'll get some pretty severe distortion. Not that I normally mind a little (or a lot of) distortion...
Heck, that VCR in the corner will record something very close to CD quality sound as well, and probably has built in comp/limit. The cool thing about these is that you can stick a tape in, switch it to ELP (no knives in the keyboard!), and record for 6 hrs straight! Be aware, though, that most consumer VCRs must have a video track in order to play the audio back correctly. You need to plug something into the yellow input jack. A video camera would be great, though a DVD player (even in "screen saver" mode) or another VCR doing nothing but passing static will work fine.
Okay, so that's a couple tangents. I personally think you'd ought to pick yourself up a reasonable laptop.
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Post by newey on Mar 28, 2010 23:21:00 GMT -5
That's certainly an option but a bit more cash than I was figuring. I have a spare PC I could use if I could find a place to put it downstairs. Maybe I need to ditch a few crates of vinyl LPs . . .
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Post by ashcatlt on Mar 28, 2010 23:37:13 GMT -5
Well, using equipment that you already own is usually cheaper. OTOH, a laptop means you can record (and moderate this forum) from wherever you happen to find yourself!
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Post by dunkelfalke on Mar 29, 2010 6:52:43 GMT -5
A netbook with a good USB sound adapter should be enough.
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Post by newey on Mar 29, 2010 7:00:34 GMT -5
Well, I do have a laptop, a very nice new one which I do use to moderate the board when I'm out of town. Unfortunately, it belongs to the firm I work for, and our IT Nazi has to preapprove all software, downloads, etc that I load on it. Personal stuff is frowned upon.
I suppose I could buy an external hard drive for it and load everything onto that. But I'd still have to lug it back and forth from work moreso than I already have to do.
The prices of those netbooks are coming down lately, maybe I should look into one of those.
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Post by ux4484 on Mar 29, 2010 9:47:54 GMT -5
Warning: Home recording RANT! Back when Apple was clearing out the 2GHz and under Mac Mini's for $100-175 cheaper, I was very close to getting one to velcro to the back of an LCD monitor to use as a luggable Garageband unit, but now with the Mini starting firmly at $599, any number of Win laptops or netbooks could do a similar job for less bucks, Problem is that so much Win recording software has SUCH a large learning curve compared to the elegant simplicity of GB. I've got several packages (Sonar 7, Abelton, Pro Tracks(cakewalk), and I don't LOVE any of them. The have tons of features, but each one does things very differently and nowhere near as easily or intuitively as GarageBand. I'd be especially p  d if I had Paid for these packages (Abelton and Pro Tracks were bundled with my Line6/Digitech stuff, and Sonar 7 was a toss off from a computer customer). I've tried a few others on demo's like Mixcraft, and Reaper (so far of those mentioned; Reaper is the clear winner), but almost all of these apps are wayyy over produced for the average user (not to mention the average musician). This is especially frustrating as I started my geekhood in H.S. on the sound and light crew and often ran the sound board and recorded from it, and did the setup for our mixer and 8 track reel to reel for recording back in my band days. Which brings me to the point... even if you have familiarity with how this stuff works in meatspace, using most of this software is NOT a smooth transition. Honestly, you are better off just getting proficient at using Audacity with does what most of us want....for FREE (which is the way I'm leaning just now). My daughter put together a very professional sounding 20's style radio show with very little work, which led me to start tying it as a recording app, a bit sparce, but easier to use than almost any of the above (though Reaper is very audacity-esque). Considering that I'm using my Line 6 ux1 on a Sempron 2500+ (1.75GHz) with very good results, almost any Netbook could be used with good results as long as the USB recording interface has device monitoring. Considering that many of the self-contained portable recorders worth their salt rival the cost of many netbooks, You could benefit moreso by going that route. *end rant* ash, While I appreciate the "Nutz" approach..... I have used the "Remote" app from Apple to control iTunes on my tower/server as a jukebox (connected to the stereo) with zero problems.... but I've also used TeamViewer on my Second Gen touch (8gig), to connect to the same PC and it is very slow, and does lock up (on the iPod), and often when it locks up, you end up back at the "Home" screen (this happens even when I reset the Touch before starting the session). So, unless you have a 3rd gen touch (32 or 64 gig) which would have the additional processing power to handle it (not to mention the cabling to where every you want your secondary recording site to be), and have the excellent eyes to be able to see the tiny tiny record button via VNC on your iPod, it might seem impractical by comparison to having a dedicated device or a portable "system" to record with. I'm curious to see if Apple comes out with something GarageBand like for the iPad. |
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Post by JohnH on Mar 29, 2010 14:39:29 GMT -5
I think that for a home studio, a pc or laptop with the freebie Audacity is just fine. I record from a mixer into a standard soundcard, two tracks at a time, up to as many as I want . With laptops, many of them only have a mic input, and no line in, hence a USB interface or similar is needed, as Dunkl points out.
John
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Post by newey on Mar 29, 2010 17:12:51 GMT -5
Well, pending payment of Uncle Sam on April 15, the netbook isn't really an option, cost-wise. So, maybe I'll bite the bullet and decide what has to go so as to shoehorn a PC into the practice space.
It's probably the cheapest and most effective solution. I've got an old PC that I put a new 320GB HD into, right before the motherboard blew up, so I can cannibalize that, and also a fairly new DVD drive. I can slot some more memory into the other old PC so as to reliably run recording apps. I already have the USB interface for connectivity. All I really need is a monitor, and I can probably cadge an old one from work.
Now, where to put it is the only issue . . .
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Post by ashcatlt on Mar 29, 2010 17:25:30 GMT -5
It's funny. I've been doing computer recording since the early days when it first became viable. I've used Sonar, Cubase, ProTools, Opcode Vision (I really miss that one), Logic, and several others and have always been able to find my way around for multi-track recording and mixing without much trouble.
The other day I was asked to help my friend with the simple task of arming and recording a single track on his machine using Audacity and I was unable to make heads or tails of the interface. It almost looked familiar, but nothing was where I'd expect it, nothing was labeled, and there were no tool-tips to make up for the lack of labels. I guess it doesn't help that he waited till after I'd had a whiskey and a couple beers before asking, but I've tried fighting Audacity on his machine before and just plain don't get it!
Aw well, to each his own. BTW, ux - if you've got a licensed version of Sonar7 you're not using, I could PM you my address. I'd be more than happy to pay shipping.
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Post by lpf3 on Mar 29, 2010 17:27:35 GMT -5
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Post by ux4484 on Mar 30, 2010 7:10:38 GMT -5
ash, I think you hit it on the head about having a few drinks before starting a recording session... that almost NEVER helps ;D , but it does bring up a point, most folks don't TRY their recording software until they actually sit down to USE it... which is not the time to find out you don't like and/or understand the interface. Being a technician by nature, I usually don't familiar myself with something until just before I have to use it, but after my first experience with Pro Tracks and my Digitech made me realize that some testing was required... before actually recording a session. Arming and recording tracks is very similar on MOST of the apps, but then standard functionality like fading in/out, grabbing and replacing sections (not to repeat a sample, but to remove a mistake or the like) are done entirely different ways in each app. Heck often you have to be in a certain "mode" to perform certain functions (a frustrating Reaper feature). Lastly, rendering into your preferred format can end up with entirely different results from when you "listen to what you've got" before rendering. Fortunately, most of the apps turn monitoring off by default, I can only imagine the confusion that would sprout from it being otherwise. One wildly different feature is adding drum tracks, on some it's a breeze, on others it's cryptic. I think the reason I like audacity is because it is more a standard Windows app than a "studio experience" app, yes it is sparce, but I can bang out a 3 track demo faster with it than any of the other apps mentioned above. newey, If you have the old PC, that would be the easiest/cheapest way to go. What app do YOU use? |
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Post by newey on Mar 30, 2010 9:12:37 GMT -5
I've been using Cubase IV because it came bundled with my Lexicon USB interface. But it's way too complex for me to figure out, I can record stuff onto it, but the editing functions are cryptic to say the least.
Rather than pay a license fee to put Cubase on another PC, I'll likely switch to Audacity, since everyone seems to like that OK.
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Post by cynical1 on Mar 30, 2010 10:32:25 GMT -5
I use Audacity to record, then pull it into Sonar to edit and mixdown.
Setting up a simple network in the abode would allow you to record in one room and mix in the other...or visa versa...or both...
...and you thought Cubase was complicated...
HTC1
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Post by ashcatlt on Mar 31, 2010 11:36:56 GMT -5
ash, I think you hit it on the head about having a few drinks before starting a recording session... that almost NEVER helps ;D That kind of depends what you're recording! Also, maybe, what you're drinking... It was an impromptu thing. We were jamming, came across something we wanted to remember. I could have just pulled out the iPhone and hit Record, but he wanted to "prove" that he could record on his machine through his SingStar mics and cheap-o USB interface. My studio is pretty much ready to hit record at a moment's notice. As long as I can stand up and see no more than 2 R keys on the keyboard, I can usually get something worthwhile. Anyway...you gonna send me that install disk? |
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Post by sydsbluesky on Apr 9, 2010 2:04:24 GMT -5
I have cubase but use audacity.
Most of my recording is done straight out of the butt and into a tascam dr-07 handheld thing I got from MF on a stupid deal of the day, though.
I waited months for it to go on sale. Saved, like... 30 bucks.
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Post by 4real on Apr 23, 2010 18:37:14 GMT -5
I use a Boss BR-600. Tiny footprint, 8 tracks digital, guitar oriented...huge effects and mixing suite, even pitch correction for dodgy vocals...fully featured touch sensitive drum machine...huge range of quality boss effects including bass and acoustic guitar simulators that are very good. Plus, inbuilt stereo condenser mics that sound surprisingly good.
I got mine second hand but as new for half the going price. It can be a little tricky to get around...you can use the BR-900 software interface on a PC to program and import that side of things...even import the drum track program out of midi.
Memory is small, max of 1GB on a flash card...but it has USB to save and load to computer for storage. Smaller than a laptop, but extremely powerful little box and portable. Oh, also has a phrase trainer...slows down without changing pitch, etc...so much in this thing...
It can take a bit to get into the higher functions...I got a great DVD instructional video that helped a lot. But the usual functions like drum machine use and effects are all intuitive, recording is kind of plug and play...mixing down is another thing again.
I have still to master it, but I use the drum machine a lot for jams...
The easy cheats way to use it is to record up to 8 tracks (64 virtual tracks) into the thing, then simply play it into your computer onto say audacity and take it from there.
Really...it is a fantastic tool, had mine a couple of years and still finding more in the thing...
Just a thought...pretty much the same guts as the 900 or 1200 without CD burning and such and at least as good drum machine and extras...and tiny really...worth a look into
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Post by JFrankParnell on May 28, 2010 18:21:39 GMT -5
I'll likely switch to Audacity, since everyone seems to like that OK. Nope, not me, no sir. here's why, pasted from a rant to a friend of mine: It doesn't support vst, in fact it doesn't support realtime fx. So, 1. if you're using the built in comps and limiters, they cant be high quality as the vsts we have. and B. applying the effects is the opposite of non-destructive editing. each application of effect or normalizing or whatever is potentially a degradation. copy of a copy, etc. Plus, you cant A-B stuff, cant audition less or more of an effect. I mean, sure you can undo, but that's not very easy to see what you're doing. Pretty much everytime you see a progress bar, you are destructively editing, copy of a copy type destruction. Introducing rounding errors everytime. Sonar and cubase dont do this. (well, i assume cubase doesnt). /rant |
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Post by cynical1 on May 28, 2010 21:22:18 GMT -5
There is a VST Enabler plugin that allows you to use .vst's in Audacity. But your larger point about it not supporting "live" vst's is much more limiting, from my experience. I also found that using the plugin will scan your entire registry looking for .vst's...so trying to get it to read only the ones that are safe for Audacity is next to impossible without some manual intervention prior to opening the app (read as, renaming the vstplugin folder, then renaming it back before opening the real editor...) I do like Audacity for its simplicity and low resource requirements for recording a base track. I always try to get the sound I want live, versus running through a .vst, but that's a personal preference...and there's always a post production tweak required on most tracks anyway...and you're probably not going to use Audacity for that anyway... Just some random observations... Happy Trails Cynical One |
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Post by ashcatlt on May 28, 2010 21:39:25 GMT -5
I'm pretty sure that I'm going to switch to Reaper here pretty quick. I've been using a less than legal and severely antiquated version of Sonar for a while now. It works fine for the most part, but there are a number of places where it is behind the times. Looking through the Reaper User Guide I find that it does most of the things I've wished that Sonar 4 would do. The routing possibilities are pretty crazy! It comes with a number of plugins - some of which I've heard are really great. I'm pretty sure you can use the free demo without any restrictions forever. They ask nicely that you pay $60US if you continue using after 30 days unless you intend to make more than $10,000 from the things you produce with it - then you pay more, but still less than a liscence for Sonar 8. Despite all the power under the hood (which is why I'm excited) it looks pretty basic and straightforward to get it up and running. I've been playing with DAW software since way before it was truly viable. I can find my way around just about anything with Windows-style interface, so I don't know what it looks like to a complete noob, but I think the learning curve to get some basic recording and even mixing stuff going would be pretty gentle. |
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Post by newey on Sept 5, 2010 21:04:25 GMT -5
Well, to kinda put a coda on this thread, I just ordered one of these from MF: Sanyo Xacti It's pre-ordered 20 days, however, as they're not yet out according to MF. Hopefully, this will do what I need it to do- upload a backing track (like for the surf jam . . . ), and monitor that through headphones while recording a track alongside it. Then pop out the SD card, and pop it into my PC upstairs, and upload it into Cubase. Also portable in the extreme for field recording, and can function as an mp3 player, too. |
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Post by thetragichero on Sept 9, 2010 19:21:42 GMT -5
do they still make sonic foundry vegas?
that's what i used to use before i got my fostex 4 track (6.4gb hdd) like ten years ago... and then i used sound forge for post production stuff
i prefer to do everything on the 4 track, including mixdown, and then bounce to the computer for noise reduction and usually a volume boost (i prefer rackmount compressors/effects with real knobs i can twist and turn)
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Post by newey on Oct 16, 2010 21:42:42 GMT -5
Well, the Sanyo Xacti came in today. Haven't had much time to play with it, just to record a test, then erase it. It comes with a 2GB microSD card, expandable to 8GB. Since everything to be recorded is as .wav files, I may need to upgrade. This thing is truly tiny, about half the size of my cellphone, and weighs probably less than 2 ozs. with the battery installed. One question is about getting an external condenser mic so I can record off an amp. Has to be stereo, according to the manual, and also must be: - Electret Condenser/Plug-in power system
- 2KΩinput impedance
- "Power: Guaranteed to operate at 1.3V"
- 3.5 mini plug
I'm not sure what "plug-in power system" refers to. And, any recommendations of a good one for this sort of use? |
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Post by ashcatlt on Oct 16, 2010 23:43:40 GMT -5
Those cheap desktop PC microphones are generally "plug-in power" electrets. Not usually stereo, thouh. The stereo versions would most commonly be used with video cameras, so video supply houses would be the place to look, I think, but...
1) It has a microphone (actually 2) built in. Why are you not just sticking the thing somewhere in front of the amp where it sounds good?
2) The mic in can also be used as a line in. It accepts a line level stereo signal via 1/8" TRS. Any microphone (or two) into any preamp (or two) could accomplish this. These would be items which:
A) You may already own, or
B) Would have other applications.
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Post by newey on Oct 17, 2010 0:27:21 GMT -5
I will. I've spent the evening learning the various menus and navigating through, and synching it to the PC. Tomorrow, I'll put it through the paces.
I was more thinking that, in the long run, I may want to minimize the room ambience.
Yeah, I thought of that after I posted. I could pick up a two-channel mic pre and a 1/4" to 1/8" Y adaptor. That's probably ultimately the way to go.
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Post by ashcatlt on Oct 19, 2010 11:08:56 GMT -5
I guess I wasn't really thinking about portability when I mentioned the external pres. You might be able to find portable options for that, though I can't think of anything right off my head aside from something maybe in the API 500 series "lunchbox" form factor. A/V shops might be a place to look for this as well.
But them, I'd think your internal mics would be good enough to capture things you would otherwise miss - like that midnight inspiration in your hotel room, or the impromptucampfire jam. You could keep the more complicated system at home for when you want something more pro sounding.
Anyway, you mentioned room ambience. I can't find a manual for your thing, but it likely has a pair of directional mics in something like an XY config. Seems if point one of these mics directly at the speaker and just ignore (split off and mute) the other channel you'll be alright. That's assuming the electret can handle the SPL sitting close enough to your amp.
I think you'd ought to strap on some good closed-back headphones and go around pointing it at things. Get a feel for the response of the mics, their directionality, and their proximity effect. Even just walk around the house. Listen to the buzz from the fridge, whatever's on TV, the dishwasher, etc.
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Post by newey on Oct 19, 2010 17:49:21 GMT -5
That's a good idea. In the meantime, I've just been trying it out recording some short guitar bits. Played back through phones it sounds pretty darn good- haven't tried uploading anything to the computer for editing or for a real thorough listening yet. But I think it'll work fine for what I want it to do.
It has auto-SPL and auto-EQ circuitry which is what I've been using, so far I haven't noticed any issues with overloading the mics. Of course, this has all been at bedroom volume levels so far.
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