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Post by newey on Aug 8, 2010 20:59:50 GMT -5
Visually, the schematic is helpful. Is it like your diagram? Well, in a word, no. I started from the pickups and moved inward. The phase switches are fine. Next, I get to the volume controls. On your last diagram (minus the radio pots), you had the pickup hot connected to the wiper, one lug to hot out, the other to ground. That was fine. On the schematic, you've got the pup hot to the left-hand lug, hot out to the right hand lug, with the wiper wired to the 4P switch. One end of the pot has to find ground, and I'm not sure it ever does. I am also still seeing the same issue on the 4P series/parallel buss switches. Again, not sure of myself on this, but I will need someone to trace me out a series connection, I'm not seeing it. The parallel side looks OK, but I'm not seeing the series . . .
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Post by aroberts8089 on Aug 11, 2010 9:15:01 GMT -5
PR, Personally I would wire this up slightly differently even as a test bed, but we all have our own quirks I guess. Is it necessary for you to have the global series/parallel channel switch? I can't see how it really helps A/B anything as it is, but I could be missing something. I personally would do it like this:
Pickups Individul Volume controls individual Phase switch individual Series/0n/parallel switch Master volume tone section
you could do it with a total of ten switches and 7 knobs and no dead spots. I also think you could get it so that you could have combinations of pickups in series and in parallel with others, although that might not be something you ar einterested in. but....I'm also pretty new at this so take it with a grain of salt.
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Post by JohnH on Aug 11, 2010 15:52:43 GMT -5
ar - Id agree, and suggested that above, but those three position switches for series/off/parallel need 4 poles, and they are very expensive.
The master S/P switch is what will allow the mixed series and parellel settings to be fully explored. You can have a series group, and a parallel group, and then chose to put those groups in either series or parallel with each other.
Yeah well... I wouldnt want one of those while fumbling at my gig, but this guitar is a science experiment for Peter!
I think the current diagram with 11 switches can be made to work, with pup volume controls, (outer lugs to pickup as usual, treble bleed R and C) phase dpdt on/off dpdt serios/parallel 4pdt
master S/P tone, volume
John
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Post by aroberts8089 on Aug 12, 2010 8:06:58 GMT -5
JH, I guess I misunderstood the series/parallel switch - I thought it switched between the two groups. I will have to look at it closer.
Even as a science experiement I dislike lots of switches and hard to remember combos, but thats me. good stuff either way
Andrew
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Post by JohnH on Aug 13, 2010 20:12:46 GMT -5
peter - if you are still pursuing this, heres my suggestion for the switching of each pup: Volume with treble bleed, phase, on/off and series/parallel This should fix most dead spots, so if a pup is off, it doesn't matter whether the S/P switch for that pickup is in either position. The only dead spots are if you only use parallel settings for all on pups, or only series settings, then the master S/P switch will need to be in one position and not the other. The other thing that this diagram does is when a pup is off, all of its wiring, including pot and phase switch is completely disconnected from hot and cold and everywhere else, so it will achieve best possible noise limitation cheers John
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peterrabbit
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Post by peterrabbit on Aug 14, 2010 15:46:07 GMT -5
Hey gang! Thanks sooo much for getting back here. Newey: "Visually, the schematic is helpful. Is it like your diagram? Well, in a word, no." All righty then, so much for schematics, for now. JohnH: "I think the current diagram with 11 switches can be made to work, with pup volume controls, (outer lugs to pickup as usual, treble bleed R and C) phase dpdt on/off dpdt series/parallel 4pdt master S/P tone, volume" Well, I'm currently up to 7 knobs, 16 toggles, 5 pups, a whole whack of caps and resistors and all the attendant wiring - (I may have to add a plank to the back of this axe, routed, to accomodate everything! That should be pretty.) JohnH: "peter - if you are still pursuing this, here's my suggestion for the switching of each pup. I am most definitely still pursuing this, and your help has been, and still is, invaluable! This wot you be talkin bout? "This should fix most dead spots, so if a pup is off, it doesn't matter whether the S/P switch for that pickup is in either position." PERFECT "The only dead spots are if you only use parallel settings for all on pups, or only series settings, then the master S/P switch will need to be in one position and not the other." I can certainly live with that (for now) "The other thing that this diagram does is when a pup is off, all of its wiring, including pot and phase switch is completely disconnected from hot and cold and everywhere else, so it will achieve best possible noise limitation" PERFECT again. Precisely what I was trying to acheive! Re: the volume controls - I've re-wired them so the hot out is from the wiper as suggested, but will this lead to the dreaded "Les Paul Syndrome", where turning one vol pot ccw shuts off the whole axe? That's why I had them wired the other way initially. If all this checks out with you guys, may I start the build now, please? 1 more question: with a bright-red tele body and rosewood neck, should I make a black pickguard or a mirrored one?Tell me you're enjoying this too! Peter ------------- Favorite country song titles: Can't take her to the dog fights, 'cos I'm afraid she'd win.
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Post by JohnH on Aug 14, 2010 17:08:58 GMT -5
well thats about it! Youd be advised to trace through a few switch settings yourself as a QA check, but I think its OK.
The dreaded LP syndrome: Yes, its wired like that, but I say do not worry about it, the alternatives are much worse! Its only a problem if you turn a pickup right off, in parallel mode, but why would you do that when you have a switch for that purpose?. Wired this way, the tones are much better, and the series setting works well (instead of not working well).
Id still suggest 500k pots, but 1M will work. 500k will make it easier to control blends. Even though you have lots of pots, you are still using single coils and the loading on each is effectively just one pot per coil, plus the master pot.
The cap and resistor that goes to the bridge: Id either get rid of them and just use wire (as nearly all the worlds guitars), or use a much larger cap such as 0.33uF = 330nF, as in 'quieting the beast'. Otherwise, you dont get your strings effectively grounded.
good luck!
John
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Post by Yew on Aug 15, 2010 5:13:07 GMT -5
Couldnt you run the output of the pickups threough two Five-way strat syle switches, modified for one coil per position, then run the out put of each switch through an on/off switch, then have a series parallel swih on one of the lines, and a phase switch one the other...
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Post by JohnH on Aug 15, 2010 6:12:50 GMT -5
yew -im sure you could! So if you have a scheme in mind, why dont you sketch it up and start a thread and we'll take a look! cheers
john
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peterrabbit
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Post by peterrabbit on Aug 15, 2010 13:11:00 GMT -5
Hello all! Well, it looks like we've (you've) done it again - another successful circuit victory! I am in your debt. JohnH: "trace through a few switch settings yourself as a QA check" Yes, it looks good to me - I traced a few different switch combos, and all seems to work as advertised. "Id still suggest 500k pots, but 1M will work. 500k will make it easier to control blends. Even though you have lots of pots, you are still using single coils and the loading on each is effectively just one pot per coil, plus the master pot." I'm using 1Meg pots mostly because I have them in my hand, and they're really small. So, should I be using the same cap/resistor treble bleed values or... "The cap and resistor that goes to the bridge: Id either get rid of them and just use wire (as nearly all the worlds guitars), or use a much larger cap such as 0.33uF = 330nF, as in 'quieting the beast'. Otherwise, you dont get your strings effectively grounded." GONE! Considering that this particular auditory stimulation machine will never see a beer light, I see no reason to keep the cap/resistor grounded string thing. Now all I have to do is build the thing and test it - shouldn't take me more than a century or two, and then I'll post some pics and sound files. Again - thank you all for your ideas and witty banter. yew: If you decide to pursue your idea, you will certainly have at least one avid follower, and prolly many, many more! I'll keep checking back to see if anyone has a better way (fewer switches) to accomplish this relatively simple to explain, yet ridiculously complicated to wire circuitry. Peter --------- Favorite country song titles: At the gas station of love, I got the self-service pump.
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Post by JohnH on Aug 15, 2010 15:57:50 GMT -5
peter - I think the treble bleed R and C are best still with about the same values, 220k and 1nF. The values are always a best compromise at getting the tone of full volume at a lower volume. It depends on what lower volume one aims to match best, and also what length (ie capacitance) your guitar cord is. I tend to aim at a -6db volume drop, and a cord around 20'
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peterrabbit
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Post by peterrabbit on Aug 15, 2010 21:20:59 GMT -5
JohnH: that sounds perfect - I'm really excited at the prospect of finally creating this axe and actually hearing what I've been imagining all this time. I'll experiment with the treble-bleed values and post the results.
Thanks agin and again
Peter ------------
Favorite country song titles: I went back to my fourth wife for the third time and gave her a second chance to make a first class fool out of me.
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peterrabbit
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Post by peterrabbit on Aug 16, 2010 22:02:41 GMT -5
J - BTW, + 2
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Post by Yew on Aug 17, 2010 10:05:35 GMT -5
Here is a really rough drawing of what I'm thinking of, you use some rotary DP5t switches to get it down to simples wiring, then there is space for an optional on/off switch (kinda illustrated if you look for it) and a volume pot, (not illustrated) the two DP5t switches would have to corresponding terminals linked (really cba to draw would be really messy if i did) and then one of the outputs goes through a phase switch, and then they both go to a series/parallel switch (thanks the mr.guitarnuts, if you want me to make my own drawing of that switch just say) then i have the output to your master tone/volume controls, the only problem I have is what will happen if you have the same pickup selected on both dials.. i don't know how the circuit will react.. you could end up with a single coil out of phase with its self... (IE. no real volume) if anyone wants me to draw it up neat, ill fire up serif and do it properly, instead of using paint ;D
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Post by JohnH on Aug 18, 2010 6:02:09 GMT -5
Hi yew - I think I see where you are heading. So you have two 2-pole 5-way switches to pick any two coils, then combine them in any way using series, parallel and phase switches.
Thats a reasonably sensible approach, given the fairly non-sensible idea of having five pickups anyway! I often reckon that the best sounds come from just one or two coils, and combos with more start to sound less clear.
I reckon there are 45 sounds available with your idea, or a bit less than 1% of the number that peters diagram will provide.
The dp5t switches have two centre lugs that go onwards to the other switches, and two sets of 5 lugs that will go to the pickup leads.
Since you are approaching a sensible design, you might like to add a switch to make it easier to set single options, because right now, if you select the same pickup with both switches, it will be dead unless the other switches are also in-phase and set to parallel. You could do that with a dpdt switch, that cuts the hot lead from one of the 5 way switches, and also completes the series circuit if the S/P switch is set to series.
Not sure if anyone will build it, but its good to excercise the brain cells isnt it? and sometimes an idea developed for a crazy design gets used on something practical later.
If you want to develop this scheme further, I suggest starting a new thread, otherwise we also get confused
BTW, thanks for your recent contributions to the forum
cheers
John
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Post by newey on Aug 18, 2010 8:30:52 GMT -5
PR-
Good progress is being made, but your most recent diagram is too wide, this thread now blows off the screen on even a widescreen monitor! Please reduce the size a bit so we can read the thread without horizontal scrolling.
Yew-
A coil cannot be OOP with itself; something can only be OOP with respect to something else. I think JohnH has already answered your question of what will occur, however.
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peterrabbit
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Post by peterrabbit on Aug 18, 2010 16:25:58 GMT -5
Newey: I've reduced the size by 75% - that makes some of the text illegible - does it fit now? I don't understand it, I've put larger pics into PhotoBucket and between theirs and GuitarNutz's software it has always just worked. Oh, well - just another day in RabbittVille! HTH - Peter BTW +1 for all your help!!
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Post by ashcatlt on Aug 18, 2010 17:07:01 GMT -5
I know I'm a bit late on this, but...
Re: Les Paul Syndrome
Like JohnH said, there's no point in using the volume pot to turn a pickup off when you've got a switch to do the same thing. An option you might consider is to put a resistor between the pot and ground. You'd need to decide how far down is far enough and then determine the appropriate resistor value. I'd say -9db would be plenty, given the (at least) 3:1 Rule (of thumb).
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peterrabbit
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Post by peterrabbit on Aug 18, 2010 18:46:05 GMT -5
ashcatlt:
Good point - I was just thinking about accidentally turning one of the pots all the way CCW - would the added resistance keep the pot from acting like a 'kill switch'? And, do you agree that the tone will suffer if I wire the sweep's (centre) lug to the hot input and the CW lug (on the right in my diagram) to output ?
I really couldn't do this without you guys - a billion thanks!
Peter -------------- Favorite country song titles: My Give-A-Damn is broken.
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Post by newey on Aug 18, 2010 20:59:06 GMT -5
Yes, you're good now, even a bit of room to spare. Legibility is now a problem, as you note, but I think all who've been following this thread will get the basic idea.
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Post by wolf on Aug 18, 2010 22:43:04 GMT -5
Looks like I have yet another chance to be the message board Rembrandt 1: I kept everything the same size except for that tone circuit on the right which had to be compressed a bit. Also we really didn't need to see those 5 graphics of the pickups did we? Since this is about the zillionth graphic in this thread, if someone wants to use this graphic in PeterRabbit's posting a few lines back, please do so. 1 well I think my artistic abilities are at least as good as those "Dogs Playing Cards" paintings.
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Post by JohnH on Aug 19, 2010 2:25:32 GMT -5
If only Rembrant had had MSpaint? Just think what citrcuit diagrams he might have left us!
I usually do my diagrams with MSWord, which allows viewing at any scale without going pixelish..
J
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Post by D2o on Aug 19, 2010 7:39:37 GMT -5
I usually do my diagrams with MSWord, which allows viewing at any scale without going pixelish.. +1 John - I didn't know I could do that with diagrams. I just tried it and there was, indeed, no degradation. And here I've been degrading for years!Thanks for the most excellent tip! D2o
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Post by D2o on Aug 19, 2010 7:40:16 GMT -5
... oh, and +1 to Rembrandt too!
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peterrabbit
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Post by peterrabbit on Aug 19, 2010 12:55:39 GMT -5
Ow! I feel good, like I knew I would now!
Wolf: Thanks for re-doing the graphic - you clearly have LOTS of time on your hands! Great job.
JohnH: "I usually do my diagrams with MSWord" Is there a thread some where on how to do this? I tried using the 'diagram' tool, but it's fighting me.
Peter --------------
Favorite country song titles: You Can't Have Your Kate And Edith Too.
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Post by JohnH on Aug 19, 2010 15:28:41 GMT -5
JohnH: "I usually do my diagrams with MSWord" Is there a thread some where on how to do this? I tried using the 'diagram' tool, but it's fighting me. Peter Well, that's a good idea, I might do one cheers John
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peterrabbit
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Post by peterrabbit on Aug 19, 2010 15:31:31 GMT -5
Cool!
And is everybody happy with the wiring?
And does this thread (prolly an edited version) warrant inclusion in the "Truly Nutzoid Schemes" category?
Peter -----------------
Favorite country song titles: You're not free & I'm not easy
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Post by sumgai on Aug 19, 2010 20:46:12 GMT -5
And is everybody happy with the wiring? I'm waiting for the movie version - it's too hard to read that unschematical stuff!
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peterrabbit
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Post by peterrabbit on Aug 22, 2010 12:02:59 GMT -5
Check - one movie version coming eventually to a screen near you!
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Post by Yogi B on Oct 2, 2018 22:31:22 GMT -5
This jumped into my head, as another potential alternative, when thinking about burgercrisis' thread. I don't really think it's appropriate there, however upon reexamining the wiring presented here with a more learned eye, I've noticed that the top and bottom poles of each series/parallel assignment switch an be combined to use only a single pole. My first crack at an improved version was shorting the pre-master-volume output (parallel group hot) to the series link of the global s/p switch, via a chain of terminals on the reclaimed poles such that the chain is only complete when all group assignment switches are set to series. This solves the situations where the output is left open due to not having any pickup switched into the parallel group, but not the situations where there is one or more pickups set to the parallel group, but all switched off). Here's a tweaked version of Wolf's diagram, followed by the isolated 'module' for each pickup:
For the aforementioned situation whereby there are pickups assigned to the parallel group, but are (all) switched off -- I'm pretty certain we need larger on/off switches. The global wiring is the same as above but each on/off switch needs to be at least a 3PDT (4PDT shown) that switches in an additional parallel-group-bypass route between this module and the next when assigned to the parallel group and switched off. Here's the module for that: This solves the issues I can see when the global switch is in the series position, however in the parallel position the reverse problem is still present: if there's no active pickups in the series group the output is unwantedly shorted. I don't see a way around this that doesn't introduce even more poles.
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