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Post by phantom1188 on Nov 27, 2010 13:09:53 GMT -5
I notice when I record a whole note power chord over a standard beat-doesn't sound smooth-it sounds like I'm playing it 4 times like the drum beat.
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Post by cynical1 on Nov 27, 2010 13:50:24 GMT -5
Greetings and welcome to the board.
Well, based on your question I can't honestly begin to diagnose or recommend anything.
If you can give us some information as to your recording setup, the software you use to record and sequence, your drum sequencing software or hardware...and the computer, if applicable, that you're doing all this stuff on we might be able to steer you in the right direction.
Happy Trails
Cynical One
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Post by ashcatlt on Nov 27, 2010 13:52:07 GMT -5
Is there a question here? Are you looking to figure out why it happens or how to fix it?
I can think of a number of reasons this might be, but without more info re: your specific situation, they're all blind guesses.
Welcome to the forum, btw.
Edit - cyn ninja'd me, but we said the same thing.
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Post by phantom1188 on Nov 27, 2010 15:04:38 GMT -5
Greetings and welcome to the board. Well, based on your question I can't honestly begin to diagnose or recommend anything. Cynical One Thanks for the welcome!! Sorry for the vagueness!! VERY basic set up-which might be the problem!! LP into an M-Audio Fast Track audio interface different combos of Vst plugs GVST's GT DSounds or Simuanalog-into CW GTP3 2.4 Ghz Dell SP 3 512 RAM-top it off with VERY crappy PC speakers!!
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Post by phantom1188 on Nov 27, 2010 15:06:28 GMT -5
Is there a question here? Are you looking to figure out why it happens or how to fix it? I can think of a number of reasons this might be, but without more info re: your specific situation, they're all blind guesses. Welcome to the forum, btw. Edit - cyn ninja'd me, but we said the same thing. It's OK!! Thanks for the welcome!! Edit: Using Beta Monkey drum loops on XP of course-see SP reference!
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Post by newey on Nov 27, 2010 15:38:58 GMT -5
phantom1188-
Hello and Welcome!
First thing to do, at least to my way of thinking, is to back out the .vsts one by one, see if that eliminates the problem. Maybe there is some software glitch in one of them, maybe it's got a delay set on it- I don't know, just thinking aloud here.
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Post by ashcatlt on Nov 27, 2010 17:48:22 GMT -5
Still not quite enough information to tell for sure, but it seems to imply that there is some compression happening somewhere with the mix. When both the drums and guitar are hitting together, it's too loud for something in the signal chain, so the whole thing gets turned down and the guitar sounds quieter. As the drum dies out the clamps come off and the guitar level comes back up. It's often called "pumping" and sometimes "breathing".
Again, I don't know enought to say where this is happening. At loud enough monitor levels, it might even be your ear/brain doing it.
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Post by phantom1188 on Nov 28, 2010 11:17:57 GMT -5
phantom1188- Hello and Welcome! First thing to do, at least to my way of thinking, is to back out the .vsts one by one, see if that eliminates the problem. Maybe there is some software glitch in one of them, maybe it's got a delay set on it- I don't know, just thinking aloud here. Hey and thanks for the welcome-it's nice to be here -where ever here is!!?? I kinda tried that last night. But not the one at a time thing. I just went guitar M-Audio Fast Track interface-to CW and recorded a simple picked "purty" passage! I bused in different effects one at a time-reverb-chorus-flange. Still not sure why I need the interface-but after trying to record in the PC line in for years I bought one. Back to the heavy stuff-the drums are dry-no plugs on their strip. The guitar has just an amp sim SimulAnalog and the Voxengo Boogex for an IR cab loader of Red Wirez IR's. Last night I messed with eq on the guitar-so we'll see what happens with the backing out Vst's-Thanks!!
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Post by phantom1188 on Nov 28, 2010 11:30:07 GMT -5
Still not quite enough information to tell for sure, but it seems to imply that there is some compression happening somewhere with the mix. When both the drums and guitar are hitting together, it's too loud for something in the signal chain, so the whole thing gets turned down and the guitar sounds quieter. As the drum dies out the clamps come off and the guitar level comes back up. It's often called "pumping" and sometimes "breathing". Again, I don't know enought to say where this is happening. At loud enough monitor levels, it might even be your ear/brain doing it. What would be a good starting point for the drums fader it's at -12db-the guitar is like at -2db. That's funny-I always called it pulsing! This is not a new problem. Back in the old days of the 80's with a cassette 4 track it did just about the same thing-you play/record a whole note chord-listen back and it "stuttered"-wasn't solid?? That set up was S-I-M-P-L-E A Boss 220A drum machine and a LP in a ProCo Rat. Thanks!
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Post by cynical1 on Nov 28, 2010 12:09:31 GMT -5
As far as levels...man, I've been accused of starting the "loudness wars" here before...so I modified my own take accordingly... First off, from my experience, the sliders in the sequencing apps can be a hassle. They're either too sensitive or too small to be usable...especially with my eyes...so I would strongly recommend you grab Sonalksis FreeG. Like it says, it's free, and it makes a big difference in mixing multiple tracks..for me, at least. It's just a small vst that you drop into your track in the sequencer. I set it as the last vst in the chain...obviously... Another good tool, from a company that has gone the way of all things, is the Classic Master Limiter. I did find a download here, if you're interested. I like this as you can use it to boost weak tracks, and toss a limit on strong tracks. The interface is dirt simple. This one I put just before of the Sonalksis FreeG vst. As far as where to set all this fun stuff... The ears are usually what you need to rely on for the mix...that, as a decent mixing amp and good speakers... Trying to mix from PC speakers is an exercise in disaster. Trust me. I tried it for a while, but when you played your mixes back on good equipment they just sounded horrible. That said, I have to defer to Ash's guidelines on this. I work from the Master out when determining individual levels. By that I mean if you keep the master at no more then -2db peak with an RMS somewhere around -12db to -14db you should come out with a pretty decent mix. I used to try and run it to -0.5db peak with an RMS around -10db, but that tends to rely too heavily on compression and can kill your transients...makes the whole song sound squashed, for lack of a better word... I have to wonder if you might not have a latency issue in your sequencing app. As stated, you're a little shy on RAM, and trying to run too many top heavy vst's at a crack can drive your playback into a stuttering mess. Look in your preferences or options on your sequencer and see if there is a place to change the buffers and latency settings. And there are times where I really miss the old analog days...but after you get past the underpowered computers and the cheap speakers it really is the only way to go anymore. Hope some of this helps Happy Trails Cynical One
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Post by ashcatlt on Nov 28, 2010 14:17:01 GMT -5
Your interface presents a much higher impedance to the pickups compared to the line input on...well anything, including your built-in soundcard. Helps preserve the treble coming out of your guitar. It also might add a bit of clean gain to get it up to a more useable level, and quite likely provides a plain better quality input/converter circuit. Most folks say -18dbfs is a good average level for tracking. That is, the track itself, unmodified by trim or faders or plugins, should sit right around -18dbfs during it's steady state. Most of the reason for this is that this is how our converters tend to be calibrated. If you properly connect a mixer to the line input, and set a tone to sit right at 0dbVu on that mixer, it should come up in computer right near -18dbfs. If you're recording hotter than this, you're not taking full advantage of the headroom in the analog chain before the converter. There may be some compression/distortion. Recording lower than this puts you closer to the analog noise floor than we'd generally like to be. Especially with 24bit audio, there's so much more dynamic range available than you will ever get out of the analog chain on either end of it that there is no need to "use all the bits". Another reason is that it just makes things easier to mix. Generally it'll let you keep the faders in the DAW somewhere in the middle of their travel, rather than way down at the bottom or way up toward the top. Now, I'm not really seeing you say that you've purposely added any mix-buss compression to this. If it is a matter of compressor pumping, it's either coming from shortcomings in your playback system or in your ear/brain. I'm not saying that there's necessarily something wrong with your ears or your brain , but that this might simply be a psychoacoustic phenomenon. Or it could be normal beating. You know how when you try to tune a guitar, it's sometimes easier to crank up the distortion and listen as the sound does that tremolo type thing? That type of beating happens every time you play two notes at one time. It might suggest less than perfect tuning, intonation, or fret-hand technique, or it might just be unavoidable based on the mathematical relationship between the root, it's fifth, and the octave. Any chance you could render a mix of this, upload it somewhere on the web, and link for us?
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Post by phantom1188 on Nov 28, 2010 14:19:52 GMT -5
First off, from my experience, the sliders in the sequencing apps can be a hassle. They're either too sensitive or too small to be usable...especially with my eyes...so I would strongly recommend you grab Sonalksis FreeG. Like it says, it's free, and it makes a big difference in mixing multiple tracks..for me, at least. It's just a small vst that you drop into your track in the sequencer. I set it as the last vst in the chain...obviously... Another good tool, from a company that has gone the way of all things, is the Classic Master Limiter. I did find a download here, if you're interested. I like this as you can use it to boost weak tracks, and toss a limit on strong tracks. The interface is dirt simple. This one I put just before of the Sonalksis FreeG vst. As far as where to set all this fun stuff... The ears are usually what you need to rely on for the mix...that, as a decent mixing amp and good speakers... Trying to mix from PC speakers is an exercise in disaster. Trust me. I tried it for a while, but when you played your mixes back on good equipment they just sounded horrible. That said, I have to defer to Ash's guidelines on this. I work from the Master out when determining individual levels. By that I mean if you keep the master at no more then -2db peak with an RMS somewhere around -12db to -14db you should come out with a pretty decent mix. I used to try and run it to -0.5db peak with an RMS around -10db, but that tends to rely too heavily on compression and can kill your transients...makes the whole song sound squashed, for lack of a better word... I have to wonder if you might not have a latency issue in your sequencing app. As stated, you're a little shy on RAM, and trying to run too many top heavy vst's at a crack can drive your playback into a stuttering mess. Look in your preferences or options on your sequencer and see if there is a place to change the buffers and latency settings. And there are times where I really miss the old analog days...but after you get past the underpowered computers and the cheap speakers it really is the only way to go anymore. Hope some of this helps Happy Trails Cynical One WOW!! Thanks for the info and links-they are on a flash drive ready to go to the basement for a test!! I've been a pretty good boy this year-hopin' Santa come through with some decent monitors and more RAM!! I'm using ASIO drivers-I will check my Cakewalk buffers and latency settings. I did try the Cakewalk Tape Sim to get some of the old days sound back to maybe help my problem but that didn't go so well! Yes cheers to analog!! I'm waiting for a project from a bassist buddy of mine in Nashville. His band did a "live" cassestte demo that I'm going to run through my Clean 4.0 program and see what I can do-I see a day of head aches comin'!!
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Post by phantom1188 on Nov 28, 2010 14:29:08 GMT -5
Sonalksis FreeG. Like it says, it's free, and it makes a big difference in mixing multiple tracks..for me, at least. It's just a small vst that you drop into your track in the sequencer. I set it as the last vst in the chain...obviously... Another good tool, from a company that has gone the way of all things, is the Classic Master Limiter. I did find a download here, Cynical One I forgot to ask you how the product links you sent compare to a product called EZMix from Toontrack??
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Post by phantom1188 on Nov 28, 2010 15:08:18 GMT -5
Now, I'm not really seeing you say that you've purposely added any mix-buss compression to this. If it is a matter of compressor pumping, it's either coming from shortcomings in your playback system or in your ear/brain. I'm not saying that there's necessarily something wrong with your ears or your brain , but that this might simply be a psychoacoustic phenomenon. Or it could be normal beating. You know how when you try to tune a guitar, it's sometimes easier to crank up the distortion and listen as the sound does that tremolo type thing? That type of beating happens every time you play two notes at one time. It might suggest less than perfect tuning, intonation, or fret-hand technique, or it might just be unavoidable based on the mathematical relationship between the root, it's fifth, and the octave. Any chance you could render a mix of this, upload it somewhere on the web, and link for us? I have done some crazy things to get that "sound". I didn't like a lot of the snares in the loops I have-nothing against the company-just not "me" So I took a snare and just added some reverb-put that over the plain snare-Brother-that was "fun" to line up. Mixed that to one track and copied and pasted that beat for the bed track. To remedy my drum/guitar problem I went as far as to play a single note on a track A-----then the E on another track-E------Mixed them together which kind of works but that's stupid I'm not doin' that EVER time!! Earlier in trying to fix this I did try some compression on each track-the drums sounded nice-but the guitar sounded the same. Yes I wonder about the ear/brain thing a LOT!! I didn't wear ear plugs the first part of the 80's-so when ya lay down at night and all is quiet-I hear eeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee! I've sent earlier mixes to two guitarist buddies of mine-Both play lighter stuff than I do (one Beatles one country gospel) and they don't hear a problem. Yes I can put up a mix it will be some time in the A.M.-In-Laws are coming-and bringing me ANOTHER head ache!! I have a SoundClick page with an OLD studio demo on it. I should have a mix up around 3 A.M. www.soundclick.com/acestokes
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Post by cynical1 on Nov 28, 2010 15:42:33 GMT -5
I forgot to ask you how the product links you sent compare to a product called EZMix from Toontrack?? The links I sent you are for single purpose free vst plugins. I've never used EZMix, but it looks like another take on Izotope's Ozone plugin, which is nice plugin, but a serious resource hog. HTC1.
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Post by phantom1188 on Nov 29, 2010 2:43:33 GMT -5
I forgot to ask you how the product links you sent compare to a product called EZMix from Toontrack?? The links I sent you are for single purpose free vst plugins. I've never used EZMix, but it looks like another take on Izotope's Ozone plugin, which is nice plugin, but a serious resource hog. HTC1. I think free wins over $99!! I d/led the first one you mentioned. I'll check it out more Monday. The last link needs for me to be online it seems-I STILL don't have a wireless router-so I spend a lot of time runnin' the stairs from the basement music PC to the family room online PC. This is how I have things set in Cakewalk Guitar Tracks Pro 3: faders -2.0 db meter-12 db bus meter peak&rms post fader -12 db playback meter peak post fader -12db record meters rms -12 db Another thing it has is a trim setting it's at 0.0. My track chain GGate (because noise sucks!) Simulanalog Marshall-Voxengo Boogex loaded with IR's from Red Wirez.
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Post by phantom1188 on Nov 30, 2010 10:00:50 GMT -5
I'm done with plugs-goin' back to a few different practice amps.
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