Jazzmaster Pickups in a Jaguar Body?

[ashcatlt]

A friend wants to know if this is doable without major surgery to the body itself. Does anybody know if the pickup routes in the Jag, maybe the HH version, and especially the lower end models, will accommodate the JM soapbars?

I guessed that Fender might do the same thing they used to do with Musicmasters and Dou-Sonics where they just routed a bunch of bodies for both pickups and slapped whichever pickguard they needed and made sure the headstock decal matched.

But then, I don't know if that's possible with the Jag's shorter scale.


I thought this thread fit slightly better here than in Lutherie, but I've been known to be wrong...

[cynical1]

Are we talking the genuine article Jaguar, or one of the myriad of aftermarket/clone Jaguars?

[newey]

'66 RI Jazzmaster body


'62 RI Jaguar body


2010 Jaguar Blacktop HH body


2008 RI Jaguar HH

The answer to the question would be "No". Obviously several different routs in play here. The bodies may well be sourced from different suppliers these days, compared to the old Musicmaster/Duosonics.

[ashcatlt]

Okay. Pretty much answers that. It almost looks like the JM pups would fit in the HH RI, but it would be close.

Did I ever tell you about the '61 Musicmaster I had? Bought for $15 when I was 16 from my cousin in Iowa. Sold it for $50 when I was 20 at a party. Made the mistake of looking it up on eBay a couple years ago...

[cynical1]

Dec 4, 2010 12:18:57 GMT -5 ashcatlt said:

Did I ever tell you about the '61 Musicmaster I had?...Made the mistake of looking it up on eBay a couple years ago...

Have a similar story about a '73 Jazz bass... I really do feel your pain...

And newey's post pretty much explains my previous post. While looking at the pictures does lend one to believe that the HH models will house the JM pickups, without measurements or a print it's an educated guess.

As far as major surgery, since the Jag has a pickguard, whatever surgery is required will be covered up...so even if you butcher the routing no one will ever notice it.

The depth should be OK, the only issue will be the length and width, and while I don't know the exact dimensions of the JM pickups off the top of my head, I can't image you'd be pulling too much meat out of the body to fit them in the HH style.

Sound's like a pickguard template is in order... By this I mean take a tracing of the existing pickguard locating the screw holes for reference. Then lay in your JM pickups in their desired location and trace them. Cut out the tracing, cut out the pickup holes and lay it over the guitar using toothpicks in your traced mounting holes to properly align it with the body. This will tell you if they'll fit or not. I've done this before as with all the different builders out there, and general manufacturing variances, you're always sure about the one that you're working on.

Then the only issue left is the depth.

Happy Trails

Cynical One

[newey]

The depth should be OK, the only issue will be the length and width, and while I don't know the exact dimensions of the JM pickups off the top of my head, I can't image you'd be pulling too much meat out of the body to fit them in the HH style.

A Jazzmaster pup, with cover, is 92mm L X 42mm W. The rout would probably need a mm or so of clearance to slide the pup in there.

A standard humbucker rout (excluding the routing for the "feet") is 71mm L X 38mm W. The holes for the heighth adjuster screws are 78mm apart, and those go to the middle of the "foot", so figure both feet add about an extra 14 mm to the sides.

So, from a std HB rout, you'd need to hog out an extra 4-5mm in width, and an extra 21mm in length, most of which will be at the corners, since the "foot" largely takes care of that dimension. At the edge of the "feet", you'd only need to take off 7mm or so.

Those are totals; to be sure the new pup is centered, you'd take 1/2 of the above numbers off each side or end, respectively.

I'm not sure about the pole spacing and whether that would line up or not- I suspect the spacing may be different given that the scale lenghts differ.

Note that, lengthwise, a P90 falls in the middle, at 86mm- still 6mm less than the Jazzy pup. These JM suckers are biiiiggg . . .

[sumgai]

ash,

Define "major surgery".

Most of us here would have no difficulty with chopping out a few square centimeters of wood, particularly if it's not gonna be visible after the pickguard is reinstalled anyways. But other folks..... that's a can o' worms, fer sure.

As to your string spacing question, I can tell you that the pickup pole/string spacing will be the same between the two guitars. The 24" scale is not short enough to appreciably affect the spacing at the bridge end of the strings. This is corroborated by the fact that the same pickup (per guitar) was sold on all models, no matter the width of nut. (Where an "A" designator was a 1-9/16th", a "B" was 1-5/8", a "C" was 1-11/16", and a "D" was 1-3/4". Note that tolerances varied as much 0.020 to 0.030".)

IMO, even "minor" surgery, such as expanding the routes of a newer HH style body, should be done with a template. No point in making a mistake if it can be avoided, eh?

HTH



sumgai

[newey]

Given the difference in scale length, the pickup position fore/aft along the string may also vary slightly. And the new "Blacktop" HH Jags are no doubt Asian-made, a US-spec JM pickguard may not be an exact fit, either.

You might have to expand the routs even more, if the positioning is off a bit.

I would start by getting a JM pickguard (or a template of one), that'll tell the tale as to how much routing is involved.

[sumgai]

Dec 5, 2010 1:09:49 GMT -5 newey said:

Given the difference in scale length, the pickup position fore/aft along the string may also vary slightly.

Err, wait - I thought we were only gonna swap out some pickups..... did I miss the part about swapping necks too?

No matter. Thankfully, no pickup "cares" how long the string is, nor where it's placed along that string, only that it gets a strong enough disturbance of its magnetic field.

In point of fact, both guitars should have their Neck pickups located exactly under the 25th fret. This is easy to find - merely capo the first fret, and find the 2nd harmonic "chime" - Presto! As aficiandos will recognize, this does mean that if a neck swap is contemplated, then a re-think of the pup positions might be a good plan - they are in different locations, for each guitar type, as measured from the bridge itself.

However, I can't speak to that 25th fret thing being correct for the newer models, whether they're authorized knock-offs (asian made for Fender) or different beasts altogether (HH models). It's entirely possible that the pickups might be located under a different node, which would mean that installing a "true" JM pup still might not produce that unique tone. I suggest double-checking this factor before any wood-chopping.

HTH




sumgai

[newey]

Err, wait - I thought we were only gonna swap out some pickups..... did I miss the part about swapping necks too?

No, you're missing my point. If a regular JM pickguard is used, the pickup holes may not exactly match up the routing for the HH Jaguar.

You're not switching necks, but you are taking a pickguard designed for a 25.5 scale guitar and using it on a 24-incher. I don't know that pickup positioning differs, it just occurs to me that it may.

I also noticed that Fender now makes a "Blacktop" series Jazzmaster as well as the Jag, so if one was buying a new guitar to do a conversion, it might make sense to start there rather than the Jag- unless it was the shorter scale that was the point of doing this.

One might still have to do some modding to the Blacktop JM, as it has a regular HB at the bridge and a SC SD at the neck, neither of which is a real JM pickup size (although the SD looks close).

[sumgai]

newey,

Of course I missed your point - I wasn't even contemplating swapping in a new pickguard either! ;D I was just gonna scarf out some plastic from the old holes, just like chopping out some wood from the body.

As noted, using a proper JM pickguard (meaning, from the Golden Era) to check the pickup size is OK, but using it to locate the pickup is not OK... at least not for the 24" neck found on Jaguars. (So far as I've been able to ascertain, all Fender Jaguar models have always been made with the shorter scale neck - I don't think they've ever offered any Jag models with a neck meant for the 25.5" scale.)

While I won't put words in ash's mouth (or under his fingertips as he types), I would venture a guess that this contemplated surgery is actually "minor" in the performacne area, but very major in the planning department. As we all know, the devil is in the details!

HTH




sumgai

[4real]

I was in a music store yesterday and eyeballing a few jazz and jags...those jazzmaster pickups are huge. Remind me also of the FWRHB in my tele, another giant pickup...i'd say you'd need quite a bit of mods to get them in there.

I had a friend in school that had a genuine vintage jazz and while I like the idea of them...ok, the vibe and elvis costello at the time...wasn't so impressed with the sound and especially the trem in the thing and other features like the strangle switches and such...

sounds like you are going to have to hack a bit of guitar and scratchplate, so I hope you like the sound of the things...