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Post by BlackAngusYoung on Dec 19, 2010 14:22:34 GMT -5
I'd like to add a master volume to my Les Paul... as in adding a fifth knob. I figure that way I can still control the blend of pickups and set them however I want but use the master volume while playing for swells and effect. I like the idea of being able to do such things with one knob without considering which pickup is selected... and to be able to do so with a knob I can conveniently reach. Is this a cool idea? I plan to add the knob in line with the neck knobs, putting Master Volume right beneath the space between the bridge and bridge pickup. Picture 5 knobs arranged like the Olympic rings, basically. I'm wondering about caps and such. Should I have a treble bleed cap? Where? First--before the master volume, I mean--I think I'd also like to rewire it in the way mentioned on the original guitarnuts site... where the controls are not "coupled." Not sure how to refer to it exactly, but I mean the wiring where having the toggle switch in the centre and also having one pickup's volume at 0 does not kill all the sound. It's mentioned here as earlier Gibson wiring than what's currently stock: I think the end result is something like some Gretsch guitars have, but I really don't know much about them. Are there any threads already discussing this type of wiring mod on a Les Paul? Schematics? Thanks for any interest/info.
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Post by 4real on Dec 19, 2010 16:59:46 GMT -5
I often thought I'd like this...especially in the old days when I played an LP exclusively for about 20 years... I thought they had a guitar that had this kind of arrangement...the switchmaster came to mind...but some of these had 3 pickups and 6 controls...hmmm But the fender company was ahead of the curve with their magnificently failed "Starcaster" that i've always wanted as a more 'futuristic' hollowbody... However, you do have a major problem witht he LP...the control cavity is not designed for this and modifying the guitar to accommodate such a mod is fraught with perils... You would need to enlarge the control cavity and cover and cover mounting ledge...and, such a mod would require refinishing..plus you put a big hole in the guitar...well several. Plus...routing the back of the curved top of such a guitar is going to be tricky at best to keep steady...oh, and did i mention refinishing...possibly a worse prospect... Still...I have thought about it a bit...spoiled by master volume strats and teles in recent decades... So...a potential solution...still difficult...would be to build some jig to keep the thing very steady and clamped upside down...and try and route into the side of the cavity enough to fit a pot in there...I did something like this kind of rout into my strats tremolo cavity behind the trem block to make a cavity for a battery but I can tell you...it is not easy! Another 'option' I had thought of at one time was trying to mount a master volume with a compact pot onto the LP pickguard...some jazz guitars have such pots.... There is a strong school of thought that master controls such as you suggest and found on say a strat are in the way and constantly getting knocked...to the extent of moving them. I don't have this problem and love the thing under my fingers...but if you flail about while playing...then perhaps be careful what you wish for! So...is it a 'good idea'...well, good enough for me to contemplate it repeatedly...but then, I think about a lot of "bad ideas' so...who knows...for the work involved and the results...perhaps not so good. In the end...way back when...and influenced by players like Larry Carlton and later Knophler...I twigged that they did their swells with a volume pedal. Mine is a Huge Boss PV-1, is hall effect and has a 20db boost preamp potential in it...so it can be set to a buffer or a clean booster that will easily overdrive a valve amp or compensate for low output guitars. A volume pedal is an extremely expressive device and gives you a 'master volume' as well...so that's a thought...at least you can work it while keeping both hands dedicated to playing the guitar...much as I am a huge fan of JB and Buchanan who make a career out of those swells with the guitar...ah, but they drive fenders! In the end, in that regard...i realized I had fender envy...master volumes, easy reach, trems...etc...LOL So...in general...perhaps not the greatest of ideas...or at least practical. I think that there are already perhaps an overdose of knobs on the LP without great effect. An option would be to rewire so that the thing has a master volume in the neck volume slot. I used to do manual swells on my LP with this control...it's tricky but possible. You could use the other controls in ways of your choosing...perhaps add a varitone or something that provides more options than your average tone control anyway. If I were building one from scratch...well there are a lot of things I'd change on an LP and this is one of them...I even have an LP project in the wings and am considering exactly that kind of thing...the only "solution" would be the under routing thing...very tricky operation and I'd have to be super sure of myself to attempt it...wouldn't want to mar the gold sparkle but more chrome knobs and playability...hard to pass up on a 'bling monster' like that project. But in the end, much as I have a real soft spot for LP's and a '69 custom sitting unplayed in it's flight case under the bed for over a decade...and even 'built' an 'improved' version this year...I have had to realize that in fact I have always had a bit of fender envy. And, I am not alone there with LP icons...JB's famous painting of him playing an LP on Blow by Blow features fenders all over it... That pic and the sound of clapton's beano era and seeing Page do his thing looked so cool...but wait...the solo on stairway and JB "lovers'...telecasters...and clapton hadn't touched an LP for decades when I was thinking Gibson...doh! They are great guitars and iconic...but if you want a fender...don't wait decades like I did to realize the fact...or better yet...get one of each! Now...a nice semi hollow guitar...hmmm...I think I'm suffering GAS at christmas...perhaps with a trem and a master volume and...
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Post by jcgss77 on Dec 19, 2010 21:43:14 GMT -5
How about a concentric pot? This would eliminate all need for 'body work'. Leave the bottom half for the master and the top for the neck volume. Or whatever way you like it.
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Post by newey on Dec 19, 2010 21:58:43 GMT -5
My first thought was to try a dime-sized pot in the upper bout, in the switch cavity, and move the pickup switch from there to the control cavity by the other pots. This would even look kind of "Gretch-ish", although Gretsch puts theirs on the right-hand upper bout, which may be more out of the way of one's strumming hand.
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Post by sumgai on Dec 20, 2010 4:25:28 GMT -5
BAY,
For all the reasons mentioned by Pete (4real), you can get into a peck o' trouble in a hot hurry, if'n you keep up with this 5th control thing....
But jc has the better idea, if he only knew it. Instead of putting one section of the concentric control as the Master and the other section as the Neck or something, I'd use use the two sections as a blend control, and leave a single pot (a normal one) as the Master control.
Now this doesn't get you into "finger swell" territory, ala Tele's and Strats, but we've already discussed some of the alternatives. And if your "sound" or playing style requires the volume swells, then you'd be better off to just use a good volume pedal instead. Think of it this way - at least you can use it with any guitar you might come across, no matter where the controls are located. Just a thought.
HTH
sumgai
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fergus
Rookie Solder Flinger
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Post by fergus on Dec 20, 2010 23:50:09 GMT -5
I had the same problem with my epiphone joe pass sig.: I needed a master volume and i needed it close so: I had an F hole to route the cable through but a small notch in the pickup ring would do too. Off course no help to you if you, like many LP owners, don't want a pick guard fitted..
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Post by BlackAngusYoung on Dec 21, 2010 9:35:15 GMT -5
But the fender company was ahead of the curve with their magnificently failed "Starcaster" that i've always wanted as a more 'futuristic' hollowbody... That's cool. I would really like a semihollow. That sure looks like the knob arrangement I was talking about! "Starcaster" is the name of Fender's current entry-level strat-type guitars, eh. An option would be to rewire so that the thing has a master volume in the neck volume slot. My thinking on this project started by wanting to use the neck volume as a master volume. I was thinking I'd like to have it as master volume, use the bridge tone as master tone, move the toggle switch to where bridge volume is and discard the regular neck tone knob. So, master tone, master volume and switch... seems simple and intuitive... but then I started thinking about the middle pickup position and thought maybe I didn't want to get rid of the individual tone and volume controls. My first thought was to try a dime-sized pot in the upper bout, in the switch cavity, and move the pickup switch from there to the control cavity by the other pots. Interesting idea but how would I get the pot to mount in the switch hole, which is much larger than the pot holes? (I don't know what you mean by "dime-sized.") My original idea included moving the switch to replace the bridge volume knob... but I was worried about enlarging that hole in case I wanted to change it in the future. If you're telling me it's possible to mount a pot in a hole sized for a switch, I might consider some things differently. I'm still gonna think about this for a while. Maybe I'll try some different wiring connections without making any changes to the wood. I keep feeling a hunch that I'd be happiest simplifying everything by having as few knobs as possible... but then I start thinking about having as many knobs as possible.
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Post by BlackAngusYoung on Dec 21, 2010 9:46:45 GMT -5
With concentric pots... it might solve every problem (except pinky proximity, if that's a problem...) if the standard neck volume control were changed to master volume... the switch relocated to where the bridge volume is... and the regular 2 volume and tone controls moved to concentric pots in the regular location of the original tone knobs... one concentric pot for each pickup, with tone on one half of it and volume on the other. That would be very close to my original posted idea, I think.
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Post by JohnH on Dec 22, 2010 14:56:42 GMT -5
For a simple version, how about losing the bridge volume, and have a neck volume, master volume and two tone controls? THis also has the advantage that your brigtest bridge tone is not diminished by fighting through two volume pots.
J
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Post by BlackAngusYoung on Dec 23, 2010 13:43:53 GMT -5
For a simple version, how about losing the bridge volume, and have a neck volume, master volume and two tone controls? THis also has the advantage that your brigtest bridge tone is not diminished by fighting through two volume pots. J I don't know... I like simplicity and not hindering the signal.... but maybe I also like using the neck pickup with just a little of the bridge signal. It's a good option, sure, but I don't think it's the one for me.
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Post by BlackAngusYoung on Dec 23, 2010 14:56:32 GMT -5
Anybody happen to know if a Fender amp's coloured light jewel thing could be used to fill the hole left by the switch? Wouldn't that be pretty?
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Post by sumgai on Dec 24, 2010 21:29:59 GMT -5
BAY, You've got a shop full of all kinds of knick-knack tools there, why not just pick up a caliper and have at it? But my gut feel is no, the jewel crown is a bit too large for the control's hole. I could be wrong, of course, but I don't have the inclination to jerk things apart on my stuff, just to check if I'm right or otherwise - I'll leave that up to you. sumgai
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Post by BlackAngusYoung on Dec 26, 2010 17:41:06 GMT -5
You've got a shop full of all kinds of knick-knack tools there, why not just pick up a caliper and have at it? Yeah, of course... what was I thinking? I'll have fun looking for something... maybe a hood ornament....
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Post by BlackAngusYoung on Jan 30, 2011 17:53:45 GMT -5
They are great guitars and iconic...but if you want a fender...don't wait decades like I did to realize the fact...or better yet...get one of each! Yeah, you're completely right. Neither are "real" but I have LP and Strat-style guitars. (An Epiphone LP with better-than-stock fake PAFs and a strat I put together from used parts and new but oldschool Fender pickups.) The strat was a lucky find I'm so happy to have because it made me realize how much more I like them. I originally just preferred the look of the LP, but now I find the strat so comfortable to play that it became my favourite. I wired it a little differently and replaced the neck with one I had to modify... both things you may have seen documented on this site. For me, I think scale length makes the most difference. If I'm playing with a strat I lose track of time but when I play the LP I get annoyed quickly because my hand feels all scrunched up. And I really like the sound that comes from the longer scale length... like there's tension built into the sound due to the string tension. I will probably rewire the LP with a master volume plus 2 concentric pots so each pickup gets it's own volume and tone control. For now, I've removed the switch and wired it so each has it's own stuff going on. Did kinda de-hurry it, though.
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Post by Glass Snuff on Jan 31, 2011 10:06:39 GMT -5
Anybody happen to know if a Fender amp's coloured light jewel thing could be used to fill the hole left by the switch? Wouldn't that be pretty? It fits perfectly. Just slightly oversized, so the threads will grip the wood if you screw it in carefully. (in fact, it's the only thing I've found that fits) BTW, as JohnH implied, adding a volume pot loads the pickup a bit, and will reduce the treble peak. To avoid this, unground the regular volume pots and let them work as rheostats. The best thing I've come up with is a balance control made with a double ganged, 250K linear pot. The top pot was the balance pot, and the bottom pot was wired between the ground lug of the master volume and ground, with the wiper connected to the pot and the outside lugs going to ground. Thus, when the control is in the middle, and the top pot puts an extra 125K in line with the pickup, the lower pot gives you an extra 125K added to the value of the volume pot to boost the treble rolled off by the extra in line resistance. The trouble is finding a double ganged 250K linear pot. I had one left over from the early '80s when high value pots were common. Then it became scratchy (and it's a sealed JIC pot).
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Post by JohnH on Jan 31, 2011 14:19:02 GMT -5
Hey! welcome GlassSnuff!
(GS is an eminent and knowledgeable member on other forums)
Very interesting ideas there.
cheers
John
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Post by Glass Snuff on Feb 3, 2011 7:32:53 GMT -5
Aww, shucks, John. Thanks for the welcome.
After lurking for years, figured it was time I joined up.
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