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Post by JFrankParnell on Mar 7, 2011 23:17:50 GMT -5
and the string trees, no matter what flavor, will make a difference on your guitar. wait, what? as in they help sustain? I thought they were a neccessary evil; keeping your stings on the nut, but potentially messing with your tuning when using der vammy bar. Hence roller trees.
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Post by cynical1 on Mar 7, 2011 23:35:10 GMT -5
Good point, JFP...this is what I get for posting at work... I really have no room to talk as this is what I have on my guitars, with or without a whammy: And I'm with 4real and newey on the roller nut. I'll probably put one of those LSR roller nuts on my latest acquisition. They require a bit of delicate surgery, but are well worth the effort. I stand corrected and will endeavor to spend more time reviewing my posts during working hours. Happy Trails Cynical One
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Post by 4real on Mar 8, 2011 1:37:53 GMT -5
The LSR is a good thing, if you have a guitar that fits the requirements and dimensions (standard radius and width as per a fender) and standard string gauges (I use 10-46).
That picture is very good, staggered tuners have just enough pressure on them (the original larger versions were different and had a hold down roller on some strings) and you can just see that there is a black tiny pad just behind the roller balls that stop sympathetic vibrations behind them...so no string trees required.
On my strat i use larger roller trees exactly as pictured with a standard nut. Graph-tecq have some nice graphite nuts in various sizes and slottings that fit a standard nut groove.
With the LSR you need to take a bit out of the fretboard in front of it, widening the grove slightly and needs to be exact and neat...and is of course permanent so no going back. This is because the nut is actually where the roller break point is and they need something in front to hole them in.
To install mine, I carefully marked things out and checked twice the securely taped a stainless steel ruler on the line to work to (about 1/16" perhaps) and scored with a sharp knife so the fretboard would not chip and so if there are any slip ups, I can't be cutting through the ruler can I. I then very carefully took most of this out with a dremel with 1/8" routing bit to the ruler as best I could, then used the edge of a flat file to clean things up. I required the use of the spacers that came with it to adjust height and the screws are exceptionally tiny and you will need a very fine drill bit even smaller to drill pilot holes for them.
Nuts are tricky things and I confess to avoiding working with them as much as possible, just filing the back of the nut for my LP took hours really, with no alteration to the fretboard...as you get close, tiny amounts make a difference and you need to keep things flat. If you go too far...well, time to practice on another I guess, and start over.
My strats nut is the one that came with the squier, probably plastic, but works well and was not tempted at this stage to mess with it...the rollers and staggered tuners give a shallow but adequate pressure on the thing, less perhaps than a standard set up would have. So, things can work ok on the cheap. If it were to wear out, I'd consider the LSR option as I really do like them, but they only just fit on the slightly skinnier necked squiers and there would be a risk there if not careful...so perhaps graphite some time in the future.
...
If you have a long string behind the fulcrum of the nut, sympathetic vibrations can sound (hence, if you wre to strum the strings behind the nut, you will get vibrations you will hear on the strings themselves) that can interfere with the vibrations themselves. Generally only a problem with open strings...though you can get similar effects with the length of string behind a fretted note and it is a good idea to try and dampen these. A tapped note also will often produce this sound, the length of string behind a tapped note to open often longer and louder than the note you want and can interfere with things....so a good idea to dampen things. Many in the studio will use a hanky or similar around the open strings...someone like jennifer batten or stanley jordan, have a flip down mute back there all the time as they specialize in the style.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 8, 2011 2:20:10 GMT -5
Doing the nut thing is to be applauded, filing away at my LPs took days...in fact, I filed right through a pair of jeans in front of the TV! It is no wonder that most guitars have a so-so nut when it takes so much effort to get it just right, too far and you have to start again...and to do it really right, the tools ain't cheap and good for little else besides making this one part! The nut was a pain. I tried with sandpaper which i thought cuts metal better than files, but i was wrong. Filing was the answer to this. However, i cheated in a slight detail. Due to haste (and believe me, i have made much much worse things than this) i overfiled the bottom of the brass nut (one added difficulty was that the guitar bottom seat had a radius 9.5', which had to be created in the nut bottom as well in order to seat properly). So i had to apply a small amount of super glue to both ends of the nut, and then glue some tiny amount of brass dust which i had collected with filing. (and not some other kind of shim, just brass of the same material of the nut). The nut sat perfectly, and seems good (compared to the abused garbage nut i had before this) and also sounds very good. Maybe it will need some kind of lubrication of heavy tremolo work? A lot of this kind of thing, soldering and such, is an acquired skill, like anything (eg playing guitar), needs regular practice. There is generally always something that can be done a little better with each attempt. In more recent times, I even plan this into the process, building things on a cardboard template, running some wires into the guitar to test it...then tidying everything up and installing when I know it works...been easier and better in the long run for sure and saved time in the end, and a lot of stress. Yeah, that's known in IT as "emulation", you try an idea on some virtual hardware and then apply it to the real thing. Also it is similar to having a test environment, a development environment and a production environment. The cycle goes like develop->test->deploy to production. however you cant easily "emulate" a string with a pup above it, unless its an actual guitar, but for everything else, pots, capacitors, circuitry, etc... that could be possible and a welcome practice.
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Post by sumgai on Mar 8, 2011 12:36:41 GMT -5
The cycle goes: develop -> test -> deploy to production -> tell the complaining user that it's a feature, not a bug. There, fixed that for ya. ;D
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Post by 4real on Mar 10, 2011 17:14:36 GMT -5
When I did the Kahler LP I put a lot of thought on how this might work, I devised a special roller arrangement so the strings pull straight across the nut more like a fender, but there is still a considerable downward pressure (interestingly, the thick but light plate did alter 'sustain' as it happens). The nut is a graph tech tusq XL graphite affair, but still I was having some problems. I discovered the rollers required some lube, so used vaseline, and the same can be used in the nut slots as well, and that pretty much fixed it. You can make your own 'graphite lube' by the use of vaseline and some pencil lead powdered as well, though might be a little 'messy'...if your nut is white anyway. The LP has very light weight but true locking sperzels which are a bit cheaper than other types but work well. The strat and tele have genuine schaller's, fender branded and feel a lot better, notice the stagger as well on the next pic Might as well post my strat and roller trees... The nut is the original from the guitar, and works well, again, a little vaseline if I am doing the other guitar...I suppose it is ordinary plastic. The above shows the full floating height of the bridge on my strat, the block was 'leather covered' similar to the HB ring, and this stops any 'banging' if the block were to hit the body. I'ts not like that for extreme bending or up bends so much, as this height feels right for me and the trem can float either side of the note. I installed a tremsetter in t though, and the trem action is very stiff and stable...very different from the loose feeling of a kahler, but even with it floating like this, stays in tune very well. I have taken to lubricating the entire strings of my guitars in recent times. I have a light machine oil spray that I put on a paper towel and lube the strings, nut and even the fretboard. This gives a slick feel and lubrication, but also 'coats' the strings, cleaning finger grime and preventing 'rust' that might occur as the guitars are generally on a stand and I live very close to the sea. If I am going to pack a guitar away for a bit, or perhaps take it away to play, doing this also gives you a fast 'new string' feel and cleans things up, or protects them well so they won't 'rot' in their case. Obviously, with three good guitars, I tend to favour one guitar for a considerable period of time rarely playing the others, so you don't want to pull out an alternative guitar to find the strings have rusted on!
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Post by Deleted on Mar 13, 2011 14:24:24 GMT -5
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Post by Deleted on Mar 13, 2011 14:51:52 GMT -5
3rd option: www.guitarfetish.com/105mm-Black-Import-Made-in-Mexico-BRASS-BLOCK_p_1159.htmlI somehow thought that a 2-point pivot aka fulcrum tremolo, which is essentially a floyd rose in disguise, would require the whole system to be lifted in order to properly get seated in pivot screws' grooves, so that might require lifting the whole system (neck included) up. I would not like to do that. I like playing with tremolo, but not to the point to destroy the whole concept just for the sake of it. I have a floyd rose II in my kramer, and a floyd rose in my carvin, so its not that i dont know the thing. I would like more tone and sustain from this new guitar, than playing with tremolo. But, i wont nail it down or cancel the tremolo!! i like it being there and being played!! so, maybe i should go for GFS, like the other friend in the other thread..
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Post by 4real on Mar 13, 2011 21:27:37 GMT -5
It depends a lot on what you are trying to achieve, what you have now and what you are prepared to modify for (2 point trems require drilling and there can be problems with some guitar routings and the quality of the wood...basswood for instance is very soft)...
I wouldn't call a 2 point trem a floyd in disguise, locking trems are a bit different in many ways. Also, it depends a lot of the feel and type of trem use you want...floating, down only, still, loose...all that.
A lot can be done with set up and shimming a neck is standard practice for height as required. Only a bit of sand paper folded in the back of the neck socket is required generally to put a slight angle...considering the length of the neck relative to the length of the string, you get quite a large tilt back with very little adjustment...both my fender types required this to install the trems to my liking.
Almost $100 there seems like quite a lot fr a cheap replacement. Steel, brass...there is a little moo going on. It is true that it changes the tone a bit, brass is a soft metal, not that different from say a standard zinc...it's to do with the harmonics, brass will dampen a bit of high end giving a softer tone, steel will accentuate it. With a floyd, the block makes little difference at all as the strings are not attached to it! A kahler is a huge solid metal device and comes with various 'flavours'...as standard though they are a steel cam with brass rollers which is good, cause otherwise the high end would be too much IMHO.
Locking systems like a floyd tend to have a more metallic edge, but this is more to do with the strings being locked solid at the nut and tail ends I think...personally, I avoid them. I do like the fender type 2 point systems and this is the obvious improvement. Leo went this way with G&L and most high end fenders use two point systems. They all work on the same principle, the traditional fulcrums on 6 small screws and there can be a bit of wear and such there...the bridge needs to be able to move so it can not be tight to the guitar anyway. To improve sustain and tuning stability, if you don't do up bends with the trem....set it up so the springs pull the trem hard against the body EVH style.
The saddles seem to be a crucial link...something solid is a good idea, I got a great tone on a cheap strat by changing to graphtech replacement saddles, a big improvement. Something with solid steel saddles might be the kind of thing you are looking for, but then, it might be getting a bit more into that 'floyd' metallic edge kind of sound.
Maybe a pic of what you have, your set up and what you are trying to achieve and what you can confidently do might help. It can be very easy to spend a lot of money 'tone chasing' and there are any number of people to take your money and convince you that this metal or whatever is going to be the 'fix'.
On my strat, my bridge is set up more like a 'jeff beck' thing and is stabilized by a tremsetter and quite stiff (not at all like a floyd) although it is set high because i like that feel and the neck tilt, they can be screwed in till the 'grove' is level with the guitar face if one choose to...and as I recall originally set up. The posts are a lot bigger than the little screws in the traditional style and they in turn screw into solid brass bushings into the wood. The guitar though is mahogany and takes screws very well compared to many guitar woods that can be quite soft.
The old trick with fenders was to remove some screws or even enlarge the holes on all but the outside ones so the screws are effectively 'fakes' to cut back on friction...but really those standard screws are tiny and not that strong compared to most good two point systems. You need to watch that the bass plate is a strong steel that can take a 'knife edge' and resist wear and that the screws hardened too...this is one of the biggest faults of 'fake' floyds and why the real things cost so much.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 14, 2011 0:20:09 GMT -5
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Post by cynical1 on Mar 14, 2011 5:12:44 GMT -5
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Post by Deleted on Mar 14, 2011 5:36:34 GMT -5
pyrros - This may come off a bit harsh, but I've noticed a recurring theme in a lot of you posts on how you bought some off brand cheap part and it burst into flames during re-entry. You've got to be getting a bit tired of this scenerio. Can you show me a real evidence of this "recurring" theme of mine? Cause i havent bought anything blatantly wrong in ages... You got it wrong. Expensive stuff will never be a substitute for homework. And yes, (very) few times i was let down by cheap things i bought in haste, while many more times i was happy with cheap things i bought after thorough examination. (the korean rail mini-humbuckers i bought, recently, for 15 euros each, and which blow the dimarzio fast strack i,ii away, are a fine example, i guess). Look at it this way. I will try to sound very "american". Capitalism, the philosophy behind dynamic markets, is based on one sole assumption : that there will always be a probability that something better and cheaper will change (some tiny part of) the world. If always expensive would mean better, then the whole thing would be much more static, predictive and deterministic since it would lack the "surprise" factor. In a sense, evolution is dependent on the notion of more expensive does not mean better. PS We are in the computer industry for Christ's sake, if more expensive was equivalent to better then Linux would be for the poor people. Do you regard "Google" as being a poor company? PS2 funny thing is that all my tremolo options above were more expensive than the wilkinson options you posted, and which were covered anyway at some page earlier. Having posted the above, i think, implies that i have done my homework regarding the wilkinsons, and i dont like them, (for the moment) for many reasons.
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Post by cynical1 on Mar 14, 2011 11:39:20 GMT -5
I wasn't trying to get the hair up on your back. No one was defining right or wrong here. My only point was that looking for alternatives versus proven products can become and expensive and frustrating proposition. I apologize if I presented my point in a confrontational manner.
My experience has taught me that if it works then don't accept an alternative. Much like 4real intimated, sometimes the extra 20% of the functionality achieved from selecting an offering from an established manufacturer saves you 100% of the aggravation later.
And I work in IT because I've been doing it too long to get a job doing anything else. I take very few life lessons from the industry any more.
I've learned there are three things you can have in this life:
1.) Highest Quality 2.) Fastest Delivery 3.) Lowest price.
Pick two.
Most of my take on selecting components for guitars and basses comes from decades of practical experience. Most of the folks I did repair for were working musicians. Their equipment had to work everytime, work consistently and work for as long as possible. My experience with "new and improved" has not always been favorable.
I assume you want to play your guitar versus working on it. I also assume you want consistent results and performance. This is the only motivation behind my previous posting.
You may find a diamond in the rough. Please share it with us if you do. My only reservation is that you go through a lot of dirt before you find the diamond.
And please don't assume "capitalism" generates anything more then a higher return for shareholders in America...or anywhere else, for that matter. Innovation and capitalism are two distinctly different beasts.
That's it. No harm no foul.
Happy Trails
Cynical One
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Post by Deleted on Mar 14, 2011 13:55:05 GMT -5
Cynical, what you say is correct if we assume that we are professional musicians here. But in my case and your case, we are just amateurs. Personally i take this new strat built as "therapy", so the most problems i encounter, the higher the adrenaline levels ;D
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Post by cynical1 on Mar 14, 2011 14:12:29 GMT -5
Personally i take this new strat built as "therapy", so the most problems i encounter, the higher the adrenaline levels ;D ...it must be a Mediterranean thing... And while the professional reference doesn't apply to me anymore, I still find it difficult to accept a compromise solution. The best analogy I can offer is this. If you're playing golf, and you approach a water hole, what ball do you pull out of your bag? Grabbing the duffed and cut ball infers you lack to confidence or ability to hit it over the water...and you've already missed the shot before you take it. However, if you grab the new Titleist then you are giving yourself every advantage in equipment and attitude to make the shot. Philosophical waxing returned to the upright and locked position... HTC1
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Post by Deleted on Mar 15, 2011 5:12:12 GMT -5
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Post by Deleted on Mar 15, 2011 10:49:38 GMT -5
Which one would you get? One (fender) is 70 GBP (80-90 USD) the other (GFS) is 40+15 ~ 55 USD.
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Post by JFrankParnell on Mar 15, 2011 11:36:17 GMT -5
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Post by newey on Mar 15, 2011 13:59:01 GMT -5
I've always had good experiences with GFS parts, but I've never used one of their Strat bridges.
I have 3 Strats, and I have WIlkinson vintage-style 6-screw bridges on all of them. For quality at the (reasonable) price, I highly recommend them. If cost were no object, there are probably better bridges out there, but the Wilkinsons are good value for the money.
Cyn1 recommended them and so do I.
Having said that, I'm not a big whammy guy. I've never used Wilkinson's 2-point trems. And I keep my trems bolted down super tight and use all 5 springs. They're not blocked, you can still use them for a little warble, but since I don't use them much I've never bothered to explore the nuances of setting one up. I screw 'em down tight for tuning stability and leave 'em alone.
Actually, only one of my Strats even has the bar attached; with the other 2, the bars sit in the cases, since I don't use them.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 15, 2011 15:13:02 GMT -5
Thanx guys, i really love this Babic tremolo, from its specs (and of course the name . However up to now i spent: 120 EUR = body (<==== ok) 80 EUR = scalloped neck (<===good!!) 20 EUR = wilkinson machine heads (<==== good) 40 EUR = 1 dimarzio hs-3 (<==== so and so) 30 EUR = 2 artec rail pickups (<==== good!) so its approximately 300 EUR up to now. Does it make sense for the Babic tremolo? another thing is shipping costs and customs.... hmmmm...
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Post by 4real on Mar 16, 2011 21:49:33 GMT -5
Building from parts tends always to be more expensive than a prebuilt guitar. My approach has generally been to get a decent well built guitar and replace parts from there. At least that way, I have a base to work from, a guitar that works and can get to know and work out what would be an improvement for it. But all have cost a lot more, it is not a cheap alternative to buying a stock guitar!
My strat for instance, I got for half price new...but still about $300 for a high end squier. One reason is that it was the last one, the other is that there is a darker stripe of mahogany through it I suspect, but i quite like that about it.
Now the pickups cost a bit, cant recall...the bridge HB was secondhand, the two JB noiseless were new at auction. Similarly the tuners and they were about $120...there is the wiring and super switch and push pull pots. I am not entirely happy with the pots and they will cost perhaps $50 to replace with really good ones that is next on the cards. This was the third rewire, so I wasted a bit in parts with my Uber switches thing that ahve been discarded after all that...not to mention the piezo and sustainer that are still installed. New neck plate, tremsetter ($50) and replacing every screw with allen bolts ($?) and a lot of time.
The costs were spread over a long time...but you are looking at one very expensive squier! However, it is built to the standard of the highest end fenders, so compared to that it is considerably cheaper and unique. The costs were spread over time, and there is the reward of DIY and making choices and innovating your own ideas that are not commercially available.
So, we really are talking 'custom' guitars with parts caster and you do pay a premium on every individual part compared to buying a whole guitar. It is certainly not a 'cheap' way to do things that's for sure. Things like rewiring that is the concern of this site generally, is relatively cheap.
Modifying guitars though is nothing compared it actually building the things that many aspire to. The tools alone are generally more than the cost of the end result and it takes an enormous amount of time and mistakes to acquire the skills to get a job comparable to what a CNC machine in china can knock out in minutes...at least from my perspective.
Consider this, you paid $200 for a body and neck...not too bad, but how do these parts compare to what a lot of decent guitars work out to in say the $300 price bracket...or there about, like a good squier? Most likely made by the same people or similar like 'eden' who made my LP. And on this, you get some decent if not spectacular PUPs...on a par with artecs...and at least $20 tuner quality. The scalloping is a unique feature that would be hard to replicate I suppose for your needs, but all the same...the principle is that this is a bit of an expensive exercise that will be a bit of a money pit..and may end up with a desire some time down the track to yet do it again...LOL!
By the way, two of my guitars have kahler trems and roller nuts and high end locking tuner systems...possibly $300 in the tremolos alone...I don't even want to think about it too much...but the things we do and in the end, it is a one of a kind and built to the highest standards for the machine that it is.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 16, 2011 23:58:29 GMT -5
"The scalloping is a unique feature that would be hard to replicate I suppose for your needs, but all the same...the principle is that this is a bit of an expensive exercise that will be a bit of a money pit..and may end up with a desire some time down the track to yet do it again...LOL!"
That is true. However, the scalloped neck feels great. i have been playing guitar for 30 years, and this one just is smth good. To be frank, i rarely enjoy playing with my other guitars any more.
Think about it: In order to get acceptable behaviour from traditional non-scalloped necks on par with the nicely scalloped ones, one should have the non-scalloped fretboards in perfect condition, always clean, always smooth and slippery. With the scalloped you dont need that! The fretboard does not exist!
Seriously to get a scalloped mapple neck these days, the only option is to buy the original fender costing 1700 euros/USD.
Will it be much better than my guitar? After 30 years of playing (and yes i have one expensive guitar, a Carvin) i really dont know.
A refret (which most probably will do by myself) will be the final mod!! (considering that i have done a rather poor fret dressing job, as it turned out).
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Post by 4real on Mar 17, 2011 0:10:48 GMT -5
Oh for sure, $80 for an entire neck is fantastic.
I'm sure it is a different playing experience and opens up more options for vibrato and bend as well.
When looking at the 'quality' of things, as I think we mentioned before...you pay ever increasing amounts for very little gain, but gain none the less. A guitar with decent even $20 tuners will no doubt stay in tune and therefore do the job. $80-100 odd gets you no string winds, instant mechanical locking, smoother action...but in the end, being able to stay in tune and easily tune is the main thing, right.
These days, a lot of 'cheap parts' are considerably better than what was previously on offer, even on high end guitars. A traditional fender bridge has bent metal saddles and 6 point screw downs and such...tuners very so-so by comparison...but they worked for Hendrix and everyone else back in the day.
I tend to 'oil' my strings and fretboard from time to time to clean and protect them. Scalloping might not work for me as well, because I use the guitars primarily as a chording instrument and it can be tricky i imagine to keep a constant pressure. However, I have always been tempted by the idea because if you could develop the technique enough, you could actually use this to correct for intonation or provide expression within a chord...using a trem subtly in part can compensate for this, but only on all strings and perhaps not as intuitive if you can get the technique down.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 17, 2011 3:20:26 GMT -5
The neck was 100$ (75 Euros). I corrected the currency. Scalloping might not work for me as well, because I use the guitars primarily as a chording instrument and it can be tricky i imagine to keep a constant pressure. IMHO, this is a great myth flying around in the net. I have the neck 4 months now and i dont remember ever trying to develop any special technique, either for chords or solos. I play with 0.09' in this particular guitar. Well, from the 1st to around 5th fret, you gotta try really hard to screw the intonation by pressure. From 5th to 21th, it is impossible to cause any intonation issues even if you press like swartzeneiker!
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Post by 4real on Mar 17, 2011 3:45:46 GMT -5
I guess so, of course on my main guitar from old, a Les Paul Ebony necked thing...I have giant frets (as was the fashion of the day) and you never touch the board effectively anyway...I do know that excessive pressure can be used on that guitar to push notes out of tune, so it well pre-dates the internet and any myths about such things. And, I have in fact heard players, play such guitars 'out of tune'...my brother is one such 'neck strangling' player, believe me!
These days, I tend to have lower frets, but still, you are are not really pushing into the board....come to think of it. I vaguely remember the original "fretless wonder" that were original on my old '69 LP and in many ways they felt great and played very fast...maybe the ebony board is 'slicker'...but the added height of jumbo frets does change the feel of the instrument making the neck ever so slightly 'thicker' as well.
But all these things are a personal preference thing as much as anything...
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Post by Deleted on Mar 17, 2011 3:50:53 GMT -5
^^^ It also boils down to playing technique. I for instance press the string almost on top of the fret. So 90% of the pressure goes onto metal and 10% in the free string between the two frets. If you press precisely in the middle, then you might get this out of tune thing, but never beyond (some fraction of ) a semitone. So its a non-issue. Its great!
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Post by Deleted on Mar 17, 2011 10:52:46 GMT -5
Just some additional questions. Does the tremolo bridge plate material play any role at all? If no, then i might try upgrading saddles and block only.
What do you guys have to say?
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Post by JFrankParnell on Mar 17, 2011 11:10:32 GMT -5
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Post by thetragichero on Mar 17, 2011 13:17:23 GMT -5
i like graphtech saddles for my trem
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Post by Deleted on Mar 18, 2011 0:03:56 GMT -5
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