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Post by Deleted on Mar 18, 2011 2:29:26 GMT -5
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Post by sumgai on Mar 20, 2011 13:14:32 GMT -5
pyrros,
Zinc is totally non-magnetic. If you get an attraction when holding a magnet over a saddle, then it's not pure zinc, that's for sure.
But that's not a fool-proof test, the saddle could still be made out of almost any kind of metal, or some combination of them. Sadly, there's no easy way to tell what your particular saddle might be made of, short of taking it to a testing laboratory.
HTH
sumgai
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Post by JFrankParnell on Mar 20, 2011 15:02:11 GMT -5
But that's not a fool-proof test, the saddle could still be made out of almost any kind of metal, or some combination of them. Sadly, there's no easy way to tell what your particular saddle might be made of, short of taking it to a testing laboratory. Or you could use Archimedes's bathtub Its probly just down the street from pyrros!
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Post by newey on Mar 20, 2011 17:04:47 GMT -5
;D ;D ;D ;D
+1 for bringing the funny, jfp!
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Post by 4real on Mar 20, 2011 17:40:09 GMT -5
Possibly over-thinking the bridge thing. Most cast saddles are zinc and can be perfectly ok, can have a bit of the kind of sound of 'brass' as a softer metal. Steel wears better and sounds super bright. I think the comfort and design is a bigger factor really.
Loose screws can be common, there are various glues you could try that might be enough to tighten the threads. Any looseness like this will effect the sound of the bridge and strings.
many people don't like the tone of things like floyds which have a substantial amount of steel in them, and this effect can be found with steel blocks and such or any bridge mods, hearing more of that high end harmonics and ringing longer, and less of the dampening of the bridge and the effects of a guitars body wood. Kahlers can be a lot like this too, substantial mass of metal in those things and a characteristic sound, quite good clarity and gives the impression of 'sustain' because the high harmonics are not dampened...if you like that sound. The standard rollers are brass to cut back a bit on the high end zing. One big factor of them though and with flyods too...is that the saddles are very well seated and locked in tight...the kahler unique in that the width too can be adjusted for any string spread and locked in.
So...fixing the saddle things could improve things a lot and make intonation and action more reliable. There are thread locking products but I dare say a lot of glues would be suitable for the same effect.
My strat has the original two point squier trem and works great and feels and looks good. A typical cast zinc block (less mass even than a standard fender for more 'throw' and the saddles are a matt finish, most likely something like cast zinc I would imagine. I'd have been quite prepared to throw money at it, but it works well.
I even have a set of import graphtech saddles spare, but I like these. On a cheap old strat I had I used those and they did make a great improvement to a cheap bridge. They are though essentially 'plastic' but have a great sound and are of course self lubricating...look and feel great and the screws thread beautifully on them and another option perhaps and not that 'dear'. Another option to consider perhaps and would 'fix' your loose screw problems. They are called 'string savers' and it is true I have never broken a string on them! I was having a problem on a guitar though where the string breaks coming out of the block...so a bit of 'rounding' with a dremel fixed that and is generally worth considering.
EDIT: looking at those saddles, they are unlikely to be anything other than a cheap zinc or alloy at that price, much the same as that on any decent replacement bridge. Might be a god option if you have a kind of vintage bent metal saddles and an upgrade to a cheap squier or similar guitar. The hype of just saying 'sustain' means nothing...there is no indication as to why it should be. Now, if they said made from milled stainless steel, there may well be a reason to suspect they are special...but the cost of these kinds of things would be huge. There are many people who will spend hundreds on bridges, especially affects tele players for instance, and for such a simple thing, the $$ are astonishing people will pay. As long as things are mechanically good, everything sounds pretty decent and can have it's own character...worth noting that a lot of people actually prefer the 'vintage' style bent steel things of the original strats.
Oh and...a lot of the 'sustain' thing, they are talking about clean sustain. Any distortion tends to compress everything and the high harmonics...it's the duration of these components that give the sense of 'sustain' not necessarily the duration of the note itself. Distortion tends to create this effect regardless and is why we perceive such sounds to be more sustain-y, loud and full. As long as your bridge is mechanically ok, a lot can be done with a distorted sound to tailor the kind of tone you are after I suspect. Compression and digital effects have a similar effect and a bit of tweaking and experimentation can get you more in the direction you are seeking perhaps than hardware might.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 21, 2011 4:02:26 GMT -5
Thanx guys!!! I dont know how it happened, but after fitting the artec rails and (mostly) after fitting spring trees, the sustain went to the roof. I can do natural harmonic on some higher frets and the thing seems to sustain for ever. With the highest harmonics (like the one pushed in the 2nd fret) i have some problems.
Thank you very much for your input, as soon as i try the GFS bridge i'll let you know.
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Post by 4real on Mar 21, 2011 4:32:34 GMT -5
As other's have indicated, on some guitars like strats, string trees rock...LOL...especially on those open strings!
Very high harmonics like that are always tricky, the nodes are very close together and a finger isn't the most precise instrument. You will see that the bridge pup is a similar distance from the bridge end and coincidently it may be placed in a position that cancels out that harmonic a bit. Also, an HB like a rail may have a bit of cut at that high a frequency...but that is the nature of the instrument. Combining another pup like the middle might help bring it out along with saturated distortion and or compression.
Glad it is getting to where you want it to go...
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Post by Deleted on Mar 21, 2011 5:32:05 GMT -5
thanx 4real! your info on the pup position was crucial and needs further reading. of all my guitars (aria, new partscaster, kramer 210, carvin dc135) the best harmonics i get with the carvin : but with the mods: 1) equipped with a super distortion full HB in the bridge. 2) xformed from left hand to right hand 3) with a Floyd Rose original i dont know, maybe the shorter scale (this guitar is "smaller" than the others), maybe the wood, but it can do freaking high pitch harmonics, like hell!!
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Post by Deleted on Mar 21, 2011 5:37:32 GMT -5
But that's not a fool-proof test, the saddle could still be made out of almost any kind of metal, or some combination of them. Sadly, there's no easy way to tell what your particular saddle might be made of, short of taking it to a testing laboratory. Or you could use Archimedes's bathtub Its probly just down the street from pyrros! LOL!! There is enough lunacy in the house already, if my kids see me doing this experiment, they will get the message that they can blow up the house safely!!
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Post by Deleted on Mar 21, 2011 5:47:18 GMT -5
Also i should add the factor of fitting the brass nut. It certainly help in the open strings. After fitting this, the 3 upper strings started to sound much better, but the lower 3 started more to need for spring trees. After 2 spring trees were fitted for all lower 4 strings (roller spring trees), the guitar started to sound much better.
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Post by cynical1 on Mar 21, 2011 10:36:32 GMT -5
...of all my guitars (aria, new partscaster, kramer 210, carvin dc128) the best harmonics i get with the carvin : I've said it before, and I'll probably say it again...in fact, I'm gonna say it now... The quality of the craftsmanship and the tightness of all fits on a guitar\bass will have more of an effect on the tone of the instrument then all the geewhiz feldergarb out there. Carvin, from all of the ones I've seen over the years, are one of the most under rated instrument builders out there. HTC1
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Post by Deleted on Mar 21, 2011 11:16:38 GMT -5
^^^ Carvin is great for sure, and specifically when it comes to harmonics (its artificial harmonics are beyond anything i've heard) its the best in the house. But, Kramer has that touch-screen feeling with its extra loud active SeymourDuncans, clearly a leader in legato pick-less playing. Aria is the closest to vintage strat tone, especially in position 2 (middle-bridge) (Dire Straits sound) and this new partscaster used to be the most vintage sounding of all. (and buzzy and weak might i add). After the mods (artec rails, brass nut, string trees, and glue within the saddles screws holes) it started to rival every single guitar in the house. And in one field in particular: *attack* it is second to none. These yngwie malmsteen type of alternate picking when you hear each stroke individually cannot be heard that good by any other in the house.
Carvin vs Kramer, not even the ultra loud Kramer can do these artificial harmonics (but it clearly rocks in natural harmonic on 3rd fret, by far... so the craftmanship argument does not hold for this occasion, does it?)
Kramer excels in : Legato, some Harmonics, loudness Aria excels in : clean sound and .... emotional bond with the past!! and history Carvin excels in : artificial harmonics and clear sound. Partscaster excels in : Attack and barock neo-classical type of shredding but can do blues, thrash, anything OK!
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Post by 4real on Mar 21, 2011 17:28:03 GMT -5
Proving that one guitar can't do it all...or perhaps you can't have too many guitars...
Absolutely. A guitar like a real LP is built as solid as a rock (and weighs about as much)...incredibly stiff necks with a big slab of ebony for a board, absolutely no gap neck join supported completely on one side, angled back head with a lot of pressure on the nut, a solid bridge (not suspended on springs and located around massive routes under it and directly in front and underneath where the string pressure is) a big slab of rock hard maple in the body, big pups that go practically to the bridge and span all harmonic nodes of a strings vibrations. You could go further with something like a steinberger, low impedance, low magnetic string pull and dampening broad spectrum HiFi like EMG pups, a one piece carbon fibre (stiffer than steel) body and neck, glued on frets, no head with sympathetic vibrations behind the nut (hence the string tree effect) and the strings bolted down at the nut, a huge solid steel bridge firmly attached to the body, no excessive colouring mass to the instrument creating dampening effects, etc.
However, the character of a guitar is created by the dampening of different harmonics and such. High frequencies and harmonics behind the fundamental of a note in large part create the 'tone'. Many of these harmonics which obey the harmonic series, are at odds with the western tuning system (notice that as harmonics get higher they fall further from the placement of the frets) and can be dissonant.
Many people find that some of the strategies to accentuate more of these things creates something that sounds "sterile" or lacking in "character" or "neutral"...
Compare this with more fender like guitars...virtually a hollowbody with huge routings in critical locations such as directly in front of the bridge fixing, bath tub routes on top of a big back spring routing almost to the neck join. (I've had super cheap guitars where the routings actually have gone through...so there is nothing there at all!!!)...soft woods like basswood, a bolted on neck join with inevitable gaps, dual cutaways with no side neck support, flat string/neck angle, flat headstocks with really long nut to tuners, (on the high strings too...whether by accident or design, JH upside down headstocks have advantages there)...a bridge almost flat with the body (no leverage advantage) allowed to move on 'springs'!...very high string pull pups (there is no opposite pole magnet pull to counteract it like an HB) and a narrow window that at various fretted string lengths will be under nodes of various harmonics...etc
However...many people like the very qualities that this creates, a guitar and sound with a lot of 'character'...plus all the other 'benefits' that result from the trade offs.
So, one needs to be careful what one wishes for and covets...a super solid steel bridge, locking nut (takes the headstock out of the equation) and broad low magnet pups like EMG's capable of sensing the highest harmonics evenly...might 'sustain' the upper partials (harmonics) in a note but sound 'un-natural' or even discordant and even 'out of tune' to some...regardless of perhaps being technically "better".
A great tele can have an amazing sustain, a solid bridge with a plate that is huge and no routing...but other factors typically creates a huge spike at the start of the note, a very fast attack and burst of discordant high harmonics, followed by a long sustain of dominant fundamental note at a lower but sustained volume. Roll off the 'attack' of the note with a volume swell and you can hear the resulting tone is quite smooth. Much of this is a result of the construction and the pickup types on such guitars.
So sustain has a lot of different ways of being interpreted...are we talking purely length of note, or the amount all harmonics of a note are sustained, the envelope of a sound, etc.
Any note contains a lot of hi harmonic content in it, but these are moving very fast and being swamped by the fundamental...they just don't have the mechanical energy to be 'sustained' against any dampening factors (like loose bridges, soft woods, hollow bodies, light bridge and nut pressure, sympathetic vibrations from the head stock)...the result is they tend to drop off very fast.
Anyway, it is all a matter of compromise and selecting the right tool to create the sound you are after is going to reap the rewards there. No one guitar is going to do it all. I only ever played one guitar for almost 25 years there, I had frequent t 'envy' that it perhaps wouldn't do things that fenders can...but I stuck to it and that became my 'sound' and identity (a black LP). In more recent times i have tended towards more variety and accept that some guitars do and inspire things different from others and that this is a good thing.
At the moment my go to guitar is the strat, slightly unusual and more solid than many, the neck has been angled back and the bridge with deep fixing points, the springing stiff with the trem setter providing pressure in both directions, a lot of mass at the headstock and strings pulled down hard on the nut with string trees, top loaded to maximise the wood and hard mahogany. So, not as lively as most strats, and with the HSS pup combination a different kind of sound, but my favourite tones are combination pups that cancel various harmonics and give the thing character throughout the length of a note.
It is interesting as there had been some debate about all these kinds of matters with the 'sustainer project' with some feeling that the sustain that one gets with such a device, or my versions of it, create an 'unnatural' sustain. My position has always been, of course it does, it is unnatural! A sustainer will sustain a note and harmonics, or even the harmonics alone, for an infinite length of time...it might lack 'character' in some ways, but that in itself is it's character. Others aggressively attempted to drive the strings so as the tail end, post attack would sustain aiming for something that sounds almost like a sine wave. There right, that tends to be the 'natural' sustain of a note soon after an attack and as it dies away...but once something like that is achieved, most are very unsatisfied with the result as there is no longer shape to the envelope nor the harmonic content to create interest over an extended period of time.
Long notes tend to require something to keep the ear interested, like vibrato, or the pitch change of a trem, or the bowing of a violin, the harmonic content of a sax or other horn. A long sustained sine wave like sound is almost unbearable, there is a practically irresistible desire to turn it off.
So, if searching for sustain, be careful that you don't lose the character...as this essay started, be careful what you wish for!
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Post by Deleted on Mar 22, 2011 6:36:58 GMT -5
pyrros, Zinc is totally non-magnetic. SG, it seems the saddles are Zinc. No magnetic pull on them. That means that they suck, i suppose.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 22, 2011 6:43:34 GMT -5
Long notes tend to require something to keep the ear interested, like vibrato, or the pitch change of a trem, or the bowing of a violin, the harmonic content of a sax or other horn. .... or a dive bomb!!
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Post by 4real on Mar 22, 2011 7:19:43 GMT -5
No...not necessarily...no magnetic pull on brass either which is a soft metal and some people love them on saddles...my kahlers use brass. It all depends on the tone you want...having everything tight is the main thing and a string string pull over them. Lifting the bridge saddles up and the bridge down or tilt the neck a touch can add significant pressure onto the saddles and make a difference, just as you found with the string trees.
Yes...or a dive bomb...but that is so 'eighties'...LOL.
There is something nice about a bit of 'drop off' at the end of phrases though.
You know, you can only expect so much from cheap parts. Milled steel saddles are going to cost a bomb, 'string-savers' are kind of decent and might be worth considering for upgrading a standard bridge...but it's just chasing gear really.
You seem happy with the wilkinson tuners, but I got a set anticipating on the LP I was going to use a locking nut and the tuners wouldn't matter. When I changed them for sperzels though, quite a bit of 'improvement' really. But the gains are kind of small, there is no 'magic bullet' really, and some new bridge seems to be patented and marketed every day...saw a new one today, only about $200 if interested...keeps the string height constant like a kahler, but somewhat ugly!
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Post by Deleted on Mar 22, 2011 8:40:07 GMT -5
Thanx for the saddle->high, bridge->low tip bro, and the parallelism with the string trees! (I could never imagine string trees are SO important). And the harder material the nut the more need for them. In my other guitars i either i had uninstalled them (floyds) or dont use them (Aria). I think in most occasions, either a part sucks royally, or it could be modded to behave very nice and to perform good. Also what you say about the ugliness is correct, i dont like neither the Babic nor the super-vee designs.
But i'll give it a shot with the guitarfetish tremolo+block (altho i dont see how much better that can be). I could only order the block (and/or the steel saddles), but i would have to wait another month in case it didnt fit.
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Post by JFrankParnell on Mar 22, 2011 9:57:59 GMT -5
..saw a new one today, only about $200 if interested...keeps the string height constant like a kahler, but somewhat ugly! what, where?
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Post by 4real on Mar 22, 2011 15:36:53 GMT -5
stepmaxtrem.com/I've spent a bit of time trying different ideas and such myself, but with so many coming out all the time and all the mojo but nothing 'that' new..meh. Someone should just build and on board 'digital' whammy and be done with it...plus, could add in digital transpositions and keep a fixed bridge and...oh no, I'm thinking again!
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Post by Deleted on Mar 23, 2011 2:37:33 GMT -5
^^^ man, actually it is spectacular how the electric guitar resisted computerization all these years. You look at some huge classic-looking (vintage ;D) Yahama pianos, and they have inside any digital signal processor one might imagine.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 24, 2011 10:37:29 GMT -5
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Post by cynical1 on Mar 24, 2011 10:41:38 GMT -5
I've never tried them, but for the $60.00-$70.00 they're asking it sounds like something I'll be looking into down the road.
Most of the brass blocks I've seen are over the rainbow for what they charge. These are reasonably priced. Good find
HTC1
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Post by 4real on Mar 24, 2011 18:52:52 GMT -5
hahaha..."infinite sustain"...rotfl...
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Post by cynical1 on Mar 24, 2011 21:18:05 GMT -5
hahaha..."infinite sustain"...rotfl... Hype is hype. I do favor modifications to saddles, brdiges, and in this case, the trem-leo block versus the nut. The brass nut really is null factor once you fret a note. I would harbor no illusions on the infinite sustain...unless there was a sustainer wired into the circuit, but I would be intrigued enough to drop the coin on one of these to find out what difference it does actually make. pyrros, if you do grab one of these pass along your impressions. Happy Trails Cynical One
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Post by Deleted on Mar 25, 2011 10:56:27 GMT -5
Ok, now i get about 20 seconds (dostorted) sustain with low E. It is ok. It really is. But i think i would do that project. Between the GFS ( www.guitarfetish.com/Import-105mm-Spaced-Brass-Tremolo-Block_p_1146.html ) (25$) and the KGC ( www.killerguitarcomponents.com/index.php?page=shop.product_details&flypage=flypage.tpl&product_id=18&category_id=10&option=com_virtuemart&Itemid=53 ) there is a gap in quality. I decided my saddles (they create some magnetic pull) and plate are ok. No need for upgrade. So its only the block which bothers me. (maybe i am wrong about the whole concept, but i see it as therapy, so i cant help it!!). One thing that troubles me is if the spacing would be ok, since there is an ambiguity in what "MIM" means. Here is my bridge: and here the alignment issue is demonstrated : The tremolo arm is a little bit closer to the strings than the plate-block mount hole. Now the puzzle is that, a lot of people say that the above is "Import" specs, others say it is MIM specs, and there is a general confusion (that's not new with strat-like parts...) GFS sell MIM as a separate block from "Import". KGC sell MIM/Import as the same block. The guys of KGC were very helpful to quickly detect that my trem is Import/MIM type, but were reluctant to answer those very questions i am posing here. May i got it all wrong and the guys were shut down because of it?
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Post by sumgai on Mar 25, 2011 18:36:12 GMT -5
pyrros, Forgive me, but I don't think I'm seeing your issue quite clearly. From your pics above (excellent, by the way), and from the text in between, I think you're saying that the hole in the block is not aligned with the hole in the top plate - is that correct? If so.... I wouldn't worry too much about it, if I were you. There's always some tolerance built into these parts, just in case players/owners do what you've done - mix and match. If it's a matter of visual appeal (the arm appears to be off-center), then yes, you could try other parts, but honestly, how much time/money/energy/effort do you want to put into this? Or to put it another way, what's the reward to you for all this investment in time/money/energy/effort/etc.? I'm not saying that you shouldn't do it, I'm saying only that you should stop for a moment, assess your needs and desires versus the reality around you, and make sure you're gonna be comfortable with the outcome. Maybe you've already done that, I don't know - if so, I apologize for sounding like a parent. (!) The other part here is, you've got a e-to-E spread of 52 millimeters. I don't know for sure, but I think that was the original measurement for the first MIM guitars, way back when. I could be wrong of course, but only Google knows for sure. ;D But your problem there is, every vendor you talk to seems to have a different story about their parts, don't they. (Not a question, that's a fact we all know and hate.) I can only say that in my personal experience, the more expensive vendors, the ones who've been in business for 20 years and longer, they seem to understand that if the customer isn't satisfied, then that person is not going to come back and buy more parts/guitars/etc. That understanding and knowledge is part of the reason for the higher prices, I'm sure. If it were me, I'd go straight to Callaham, and describe exactly what I've got, and what I want, and why I want it. (If you don't do that first, Bill will ask you anyways.) Either he'll tell you that he's got it, and it costs X dollars, or else he'll say he doesn't have it, and that's that. I don't know if he still does it, but it used to be that he'd answer all your questions before ending the conversation, even if it took quite a bit of time. For the sake of customer service and satisfaction, I hope he still does that. HTH sumgai
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Post by JFrankParnell on Mar 25, 2011 18:51:45 GMT -5
I think you've passed the decision making phase, but for the sake of completeness or whatever, I emailed Jeff Babicz (Babicz Full Contact Hardware). Its cool to be able to chat with the head of the company. Anyway, he said his tone blocks were zinc alloy because of the cost factor. For upgrades, he recommends these guys: www.floydupgrades.com/catalog/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=87 and their solid brass blocks "There is no doubt that you can improve sustain with a high mass block" and "current FCH Strat trem is patterned after the MIM/Squire " Also, kinda off topic, FloydUpgrades is another USA source of the goeldo goldo back box or black box: www.floydupgrades.com/catalog/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=70&products_id=222joe.emenaker.com/TremStabilizers/BackBox.htmlI swear by it. Oh, and also, floydupgrades has solid brass trem claws, which i thought was pretty cool, especially compared to the normal cheapo metal.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 26, 2011 1:05:36 GMT -5
SG, thanx. Finally yesterday i got a very helpful and enlighting message from KillerGuitarComponents (KGC), and they said the same thing with you here, that there is enough clearance for both MIM/Import configurations to fit. Now regarding the Callaham VS KGC thing, most reviews i read were in favor of the KGC. jfrankparnell, yeah it seems brass is "the right thing". OTOH, i am feeling a little guilty since the guitar is already at 350 EUROS (~400$) at the moment. Maybe i should go for the cheaper GFS block and arm.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 7, 2012 11:03:26 GMT -5
Cyn1 was just proven correct!! I am planning the next trem upgrade. This time i want a complete bridge. not a hack. I am between : - www.axesrus.co.uk/Fender-Standard-Vintage-Tremolo-in-Chrome-p/007-101-4000.htm- cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=380514482191&ssPageName=ADME:X:AAQ:GB:1123 (guys @axesrus claim this is the same part assembly) - www.guitarfetish.com/Made-in-Mexico-Import-Strat-UPGRADE-trem-Solid-STEEL-block_p_489.htmlThe last one is supposed to be all-steel made The only upgrade i have currently, bridge-wise is this : guitarnuts2.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=whammy&action=display&thread=5704But it didn't fit out of the box, bridge plate metal was cut, don't know if i can rely on this... sustain sucks at certain notes... Would a full upgrade make a difference ? Should i go more expensive than that? (Babicz, Callaham, etc..). I know i am beating the same old horse here, but this guitar was on retirement since i bought the ibanez, but 2 days ago i sent my folks to the luthier in my home town (whom i kind trust, for family reasons) to replace frets/etc.... and to do a general overhaul of the guitar. So, after i get it, i am thinking of going on with its upgrades. If i go to any of those solutions, i will be glad to sell the brass block i currently have.
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Post by sumgai on Dec 7, 2012 16:17:16 GMT -5
pyrros, If you're gonna replace the whole unit, then I'd stick with one company to supply all the parts and pieces at the same time. Since it looks like that's your main goal (at this time), then once again, I have to counsel that you consider 'the big boys' in the game. I've no experience with KillerGuitarComponents, but I have had with Callaham. However, since Callaham doesn't seem to be quite your 'cup of tea', then let me recommend another long-time player in the business, Hipshot. I've dealt with them numerous times for both stock and custom stuff, and I've always come away thinking that I got my money's worth in terms of good parts and good service. Yes, they're a bit more costly (and I don't know how they feel about shipping to Europe, but we can "fix" that), sometimes you just have to treat yourself to the finer things in life, right? HTH sumgai
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