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Post by peppercorn on Mar 15, 2011 10:04:11 GMT -5
Hi all, I have been reading through many posts here and find this a great site for all things guitar. There are not many sites like this place!
My question is this!
I am building a strat type guitar with 3 Brian May signature Burns single coil pickups! The middle pickup is reverse wound and reverse polarity.
I want to wire it basically like a strat guitar with a 5 way switch etc, but with ONE exception. I would like to have one switch to reverse the polarity of the middle pickup. IF I did that, would position 2 and 4 give me a humbucker type sound with the polarity switch not engaged??
and with the switch engaged, would I then get a typical quack type sound on positions 2 & 4??
Thanks for any help!
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Post by JFrankParnell on Mar 15, 2011 11:43:50 GMT -5
one pup with 'reverse polarity' is usually called 'out of phase" or 'oop'. 'typical quack' is what you get on a normal 2&4. Oop can sound very tinny and thin, but it is useful on some amp settings (hot n dirty). Since youre doing Brian May pups, you might be interested to know that the bohemian rhapsody solo is neck+bridge;oop. or (N)+B as we call it here. Here is how you can get that: guitarnuts2.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=wiring&action=display&thread=5006 You dont need the 'blower', necessarily. this pic shows it more basically
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Post by newey on Mar 15, 2011 13:49:09 GMT -5
peppercorn-
Hello and Welcome to G-Nutz2!
With a reverse-wound, reverse polarity middle coil ("RWRP"), positions 2 and 4 are hum-canceling, just as they are on a regular Strat. They are NOT out-of-phase at positions 2 and 4.
A phase switch on the middle pup will then make the middle pup OOP with respect to both the bridge and neck, at positions 2 and 4, respectively. Those positions will not be hum-cancelling, however.
The phase switch "undoes" the reverse-wound aspect, so the mid pup is then wound the same as both the neck and middle. The mid pup now only has a reversed polarity from the other two; humbucking requires both reverse winding and reverse polarity.
jfrank has given you a diagram for the phase switch on the neck pickup. While that is not what you have said you want, you may want to consider that alternative for the OOP. The further apart the OOP coils are, the less cancellation of signal there is, meaning that Neck and Bridge OOP is probably more usuful a sound than mid OOP with either the bridge or neck.
Also, parallel OOP has more cancellation (and therefore less useful) than series OOP. For parallel OOP, think of the intro to "Wish You Were Here" , with that tinny "guitar on the radio" sound.
Brian May famously had his guitars wired in series, not parallel, and therfore his OOP sounds were the more-useful series OOP, not parallel. Generally, we use a "+" for parallel connections, and a "*" for series, while a "-" denotes OOP.
So, what jfrank has diagrammed there is (-N) + B; BM had (-N) * B.
If you truly want to get Brian May sounds, you're going to need series wiring, regardless of which pickups you use. If you want the regular Strat "quack", you want parallel wiring.
You can, of course, have both, but that entails a bit more switching and more complexity.
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Post by JohnH on Mar 15, 2011 15:10:20 GMT -5
welcome to GN2. My Ibanez Roadstar originally came fitted with three single coils and a middle phase switch, plus normal Strat parallel wiring. Such a tinny sound when out-of-phase! The guitar got greatly modded, but i still have the sound options on neck and middle, or bridge and middle, parallel and out of phase. I have never used them at all. With your pickups, you may get different results to mine. But if you were to say 'typical Strat quack', and 'Bridge humbucker' were the target sounds, then as noted above, the most likely addition to normal Strat wiring would be in-phase series wiring. have a look at this thread, by our late friend ChrisK. Just go straight to the last diagram of the first post, where with one extra switch, he achieved this using basicly stock parts for everything else. guitarnuts2.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=schem&action=display&thread=3153John
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Post by JFrankParnell on Mar 15, 2011 19:13:16 GMT -5
I stand corrected on the Brian May series wiring. Also, I agree that (N)+B is lots more usefull than other oops. One fine day I'll finish my series wiring project and I'll get to hear the poop vs soop.
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Post by peppercorn on Mar 15, 2011 22:40:04 GMT -5
Thanks for all the help guys, much appreciated!!
Can I get one other thing cleared up??
Assuming I wire the pickups in parallel, will I get a Humbucker when I select position 2 & 4??
AND If I was to hook up my guitar wiring as in the diagram above, does that mean that position 4 selects the Bridge and Neck pickups at position 4?? I'm a bit confused.
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Post by newey on Mar 15, 2011 22:47:09 GMT -5
Yes.
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Post by ashcatlt on Mar 15, 2011 23:38:13 GMT -5
Strictly speaking, the term "humbucker" essentially means that the two coils are connected in such a way that they cancel, rather than reinforce the noise - much of which is that 50/60 cycle hum we all know and hate.
When a person says Humbucker Sound (or Tone, or whatever), though, they usually mean the sound of two coils wired in phase and in series with one another.
So which are you asking about.
newey - It is not correct to say that
Whether the hum cancels or reinforces is completely a matter of relative winding direction.
Relative magnetic polarity (in conjunction with winding direction) determines whether the string signal cancels or reinforces.
As to the above diagram, the neck pickup is wired where the middle pickup usually goes. Unless you physically swap the RWRP middle pickup to the neck (and vice versa), you'll only get humcancelling in the N+M position, which I guess you're calling 2, since you're seeing N+B at position 4.
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Post by JFrankParnell on Mar 16, 2011 10:27:49 GMT -5
I get some hum canceling with N+B, but its not as quiet as N+M
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Post by peppercorn on Mar 16, 2011 16:15:33 GMT -5
OK can I put in a switch to connect the bridge and Neck pickups oof and still just use a 5 way switch normally???
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Post by JFrankParnell on Mar 16, 2011 17:33:02 GMT -5
welp, the diagram above gives you 1 N 2 N+B 3 M 4 N+M 5 B and the switch gives you neck oop whether youre on 2 or 4 So its kinda normal 5 way, except 2 and 4 are different than normal. Its a pretty cool set up, cuz N+B sounds awesome, its Tele-ish on clean and a nice juicy lead sound on dirty. Oh, i should mention that the diagram shows master volume, master tone. I took out the other tone control, partly to get the Vol away from my pinky, but also for room for switches.
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Post by 4real on Mar 16, 2011 22:40:47 GMT -5
+1 on the N+B.
I love the N+B sound, so versatile. Probably the setting I use as 'default' on all my guitars yet not a standard option on a strat.
Those rocker switches, even the guard cut...looks mega cool...
...
On the OoF thing...I did a clip recently for my strat, though having some issues with soundclick but should be sorted soon. I used the HOoF thing, "half out of phase' and this made some of those more extreme unusable sounds much better for sure while still having that scratchy lo-fi funky sound.
A middle strat pickup tends to be reverse wound, reverse polarity and is HB in pos 2 and 4. If you reverse the winding only, it will be out of phase OoP and have that characteristic 'scooped' sound.
However,
...different guitars seem to have a different effect, on my old 'phaseocaster' I had a phase switch for each pickup and indeed it did give a more HB midrange kind of sound when out of phase. This I account for because part of that pos 2&4 quack is because the pickups are 'physically' out of phase in a way, along the length of the string. The string with some harmonics may be vibrating down over the bridge or neck pup, and the opposite or some different degree over the middle. By reversing the phase, it is possible that you could get the reverse effect, instead of cancelling or scooping out the midrange you get a kind of midrange enhancement, or more likely loss of highs and lows. It can be a very effective sound...but as I say, guitars differ. On the Phase-o-caster it was wired with a three way, and one tone was used to fade in the middle pickup...so OoP settings on this pickup allowed to dial in mids, or if switched normal...dial in 'quack' to any selection.
Wouldn't be hard to test out though before messing around too much, just reverse the middle pickup's wires and see how you like that sound...if good for you, install a phase switch. Using a small cap to the phase switch allows you to create a HOoP effect if the sound is too extreme, or at least tailor the sound to your tastes and maximise the effect.
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Post by JFrankParnell on Mar 17, 2011 10:52:51 GMT -5
Using a small cap to the phase switch allows you to create a HOoP effect if the sound is too extreme, or at least tailor the sound to your tastes and maximise the effect. Link?
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Post by peppercorn on Mar 17, 2011 10:56:09 GMT -5
Hey thanks mate, I really appreciate the advice and info.
I have just finished all of the routing and got the pickups fitted and strings attached, adjusted the neck and harmonics and put an Alligator clip on each wire coming out of each pickup.
I then wired em all up straight to the output jack and straight into the amp. I took turns wiring pickups in phase outta phase every which way. In the end I have decided on a pretty straight setup, much like a Strat but with the option of hooking up the bridge and Neck pickups both in and outta phase. 1 Volume knob and 1 tone knob and a 5 way switch, a push/pull switch and a micro switch. I hav'nt quite worked out how to wire it yet, but after a good sleep I'll try and get my brains into gear!!!
Thanks again!
PS If anyone has a drawing already drawn and wants to post it here so I don't HAVE TO put my brain into gear that'd be just awesome!
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Post by ashcatlt on Mar 17, 2011 12:04:38 GMT -5
Do you want the N + B thing to override the 5-way, or would a Neck (or Bridge) on switch work? This would mean you'd have to switch toward the Bridge (or Neck) and then do the other switch, but gives you the bonus option of having all three pickups on.
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Post by peppercorn on Mar 17, 2011 19:58:55 GMT -5
Yea, I was thinking of an extra switch where I would select say the N or B on the 5 way switch, and then employ the switch to select the other pickup.
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Post by asmith on Mar 18, 2011 10:09:02 GMT -5
You can do a "get the other pickup in" switch no problem. It looks like this: Old diagram. If you want to get the added pickup in out of phase though, you'd need another pole on your five-way selector.
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Post by peppercorn on Mar 18, 2011 10:26:30 GMT -5
Thanks mate, does that get the in/out phase happening too?
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Post by ashcatlt on Mar 18, 2011 12:50:59 GMT -5
That's actually pretty cool. In B or B+M position, pulling the switch adds the Neck. In N or N+M it adds the Bridge. There's a little redundancy there, but i think it's a good kind.
Unless you want the neck permanently OoP, you'll need another switch. This will go between the neck pickup and the 5-way and there's probably thousands of drawings on the web for it. Check our schematics sub board, maybe in the thread called Modules.
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Post by newey on Mar 18, 2011 13:18:33 GMT -5
Or, look back to reply #1 above, where jfrank has a phase switch drawn. This could go on the unused push/pull shown on asmith's diagram.
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Post by peppercorn on Mar 18, 2011 13:58:51 GMT -5
Thanks 4 all the help guys!!!!!!!!!
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Post by JohnH on Mar 18, 2011 15:48:00 GMT -5
Just a thought - on asmith's diagram, the same can be done by using the 'other pup' switch to directly connect red to blue, on the left side of the 5-way switch. Then the right side of the 5-way is freee and can be used for other mischief.
J
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Post by asmith on Mar 18, 2011 22:11:20 GMT -5
Just a thought - on asmith's diagram, the same can be done by using the 'other pup' switch to directly connect red to blue, on the left side of the 5-way switch. Then the right side of the 5-way is freee and can be used for other mischief. Why didn't I think of that? I'm trying to figure out a way of using that free side of the five-way so that an out-of-phase switch can be used on whichever pickup is 'added.' For example, if you're playing on the Neck pickup and you add in the Bridge pickup, you can then select if the Bridge is out of phase. If you're playing the Middle pickup and you add in the Neck pickup , you can select if that added Neck is out of phase. I wonder if that was possible with three poles on the five-way but isn't now. My reasoning is that that's so because before, the output of the common lug on Pole #2 was your "other" pickup, so you could add another pole and play with your "other" ground, whereas now the scheme just connects two wires without any logical distinction about which pickup is getting added.
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