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Post by sbgodofmetal on May 22, 2011 17:27:02 GMT -5
Hello all its been awhile, I've been looking into some inexspencive woods to practice body routing and shaping with and was wondering is birch a tone wood? I've heard some acoustics are made from it but i've never seen or heard one before. Any info on the subject would help.
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Post by cynical1 on May 22, 2011 18:02:27 GMT -5
If all you're doing is practicing then any wood would work. The softer the better as it's easier on your tooling. Pine would be your best practice wood...it's soft and cheap and readily available, especially down South.
Birch, pine and poplar are generally inexpensive woods available at most home improvement stores and lumber yards.
If these are going to become guitars then you need to narrow it down a bit. Keep in mind that we have had members here build guitars from birch and pine that sounded very nice. The craftsmanship and fit is more critical to the tone then your choice of wood.
If you're going to make guitars out of these make sure the wood has been kiln dried or cured prior to working it or it may warp, split and crack on you.
Sometimes you can find swamp ash for cheap down South, but make sure you trust your source.
Finding boards over 3/4" thick may get expensive, so if you have a source for 2" birch that isn't going to break the bank then go for it. Another thing to look at is the width. Anything over 8" wide gets expensive, so you may end up gluing planks together to get your body size correct.
For reference, depending on the species of birch, it can range in Janka hardness from approximately 760lbf to 1470lbf. This gives you a range similar to elm on the low end, and up to maple on the high end. Birch would normally be harder then alder and some ash species, and right in line with certain mahogany species.
If you truly are the God of Metal, remember that many metal players prefer basswood, which is significantly lighter the softer then birch.
Do you know what species of birch you're looking at?
Happy Trails
Cynical One
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Post by lpf3 on May 22, 2011 18:34:19 GMT -5
I'm with c1- Pine or poplar is not only a good choice for practice material but makes a nice guitar too. I do have to admit that I hate poplar; but that comes from a failed experiment at work- Be aware that poplar is usually considered paint grade because of the black; purple & green streaks and looks like crap when stained. I tried to tell that to my boss, I really did............ Pine can be downright pretty- I have a couple of pine Tele bodies in the works at the moment & really like it. I have no idea the tonal properties of pine, I'm assuming it'll sound just like a guitar....... (rimshot) Don't use birch if you're just practicing. It can be pretty hard to work and in my experience is damn hard on tools. My guess is that a birch body would be A). heavy & B). bright . Real bright. Again with the agreeing with The Resident Cynic but most metal guys like basswood for tone- next being mahogany. Both are gonna have enhanced lows & mids, they'll be fuller sounding that some of the other woods. For practice - use pine. it's cheap & easy to work. -lpf3
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Post by roadtonever on May 22, 2011 20:49:04 GMT -5
I have no woodworking experience my self but from what I've read about Birch it won't give you a coloration like many popular tonewoods do. It's used in high-end speakers because of this reason. Going out on a limb but perhaps a varitone or simmilar would be more effective here than with typical tonewoods as the wood lacks a resonance of it's own the control circuit takes over in that aspect.
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Post by cynical1 on May 22, 2011 21:24:30 GMT -5
While I agree with lpf3 that poplar is not the prettiest wood in the world, it is very good, and sadly overlooked, wood for a bass guitar. For its light weight it sustains incredibly well on a bass, and can give you a defined low end and a singing high end. But it is butt ugly and really requires a solid paint job...
I would think that birch would be similar in tone characteristics to red oak...but don't tell Brian May that oak is a bad tonewood...
HTC1
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Post by sbgodofmetal on May 22, 2011 23:57:41 GMT -5
Thanks guys, but now i feel I must apologize. I'm using pine plywood for practicing and was thinking about using birch for an actual first run build, but from hearing your replies i'll try it first with the pine just for experience sake at least, moving my way into poplar then birch. What i'll be doing is buying 4'x8'x1/2" plywood sheets and gluing the layers. If my math is correct i should get at most, 3 body blanks at 14''x20''x2''.
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Post by sbgodofmetal on May 23, 2011 0:05:41 GMT -5
lpf3 i happen to like the look of poplar. Once you find the figure that suits you, wouldn't it just be easier to do a trans paint finish followed by the clear coat of choice(e.x. gloss, matte, or satin) instead of staining?
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Post by sbgodofmetal on May 23, 2011 0:28:01 GMT -5
as far as metal goes i'd absolutely love to get ahold of some black walnut but its very hard to come by in alabama and a 14"x20"x2" body blank online runs no less than $250+. I'm still searching for an affordable alternative with as close to the same tonal properties as possible.
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Post by cynical1 on May 23, 2011 1:15:24 GMT -5
You lost me a bit here... Are you talking about using birch plywood? If so, then you might want to re-think that...and if I misunderstood you, then nevermind...
You could...but without the proper equipment and the ability to thin the paint properly that can be a real crap shoot.
What I would suggest, if you're going to use poplar, is to use a wood dye. You can make it as dark as you want and it doesn't require special equipment. You can go nearly opaque...which is what I did on Project #2 to get a different type of burst...but I digress...
If you can manipulate plywood successfully then you're ready for some real wood. Although I would suggest leaving the black walnut for a later time when you've got a few guitars under your belt. As you've seen, it's way to expensive to learn on.
If I may, let me suggest something you do have plenty of down South. Cypress. Double Yoi did a top out of cypress and the graining is beautiful.
If you're looking to make a guitar, let me offer a plan for a unique instrument. Poplar body with a cypress top. The wood will be easy to work, readily available and very forgiving. It also requires very little if any grain filling prior to finishing.
If you've got a plan let me know and I can be more specific.
One final note on "plywood". Most construction grades of plywood will not work well for a guitar. The plys are too thick. If you really want to try something, let me pass on a story about an experiment we tried over 30 years ago.
On a lark we picked up a broken case of cabinet veneer 24" x 24"...I don't know why...some vague notion of covering amp cabinets with it...but it was cheap and I seem to recall that there was alcohol or some other narciferous substance involved...
We get it back to the shop and it's 1/32" hickory veneer sheets...and the one corner of the case has been water damaged. This immediately explained the extremely low price.
It sat for a long time until someone got the idea to laminate the sheets together and make a body blank out of it. So, we proceeded to glue about 50 sheets together and stuck them in the press overnight.
Long story short, after about a week we cut it into a semi Explorer shape and route it into a completed body. We painted it, fitted it with a maple neck, dropped some old humbuckers in, wired it with used parts laying around and plugged it in...
Holy crap! It sounded amazing. We used to drag it out for the tone Nazi's and have them try and guess what type of "tonewood" it was... I don't know whatever happened to that guitar, but I'd love to see the face of the guy who ever refinishes it...
Long and short of it is this. The tightness of the neck to the body. The precision and alignment of the setup will go a long way to a fine sounding instrument.
Don't get hung up on "tonewood". Do a search on YouTube for pine body guitars. Some of them will blow the doors of of the more exotic wood guitars.
Happy Trails
Cynical One
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Post by lpf3 on May 23, 2011 5:23:25 GMT -5
sbgodofmetal wrote:Excuse me, ahem. OK I won't dis' your wood anymore. and yes, your statement about finishing is correct. Let me recommend Reranch for a great selection of good quality finishing stuff. There's a discussion board with a wealth of finishing info; there's no reason why you can't get a great finish using spray cans..... cynical1's right about "tonewood", let me add to that.... For some reason a lot of online retailers have gotten the idea that we guitar folks will pay way too much for stuff. That $250 piece of walnut just about floored me. I don't know what things are like in Alabama; but are there any hardwood stores around? Not building material yards, but hardwood yards where the local cabinet/ furniture guys & finish carpenters get their stuff. Examples: I got a 2 x 13 x 96" piece of mahogany for $82.00. Enough for 5 one piece Tele blanks- comes out to a little over $16.00 per blank. I did the same with a piece of pine, I actually got enough for 4 one piece bodies for less than that- a piece of flame maple for a top for $11.00, and on and on. Don't think you need "tonewood" Simple hardwood will do. As far as templates- you can probably find plenty of pdf drawings of guitar plans online, but just buying the templates saves a lot of work. Just search the 'bay you'll no doubt find the shape you're lookin for. cybical1 wrote:Not to hijack, but I'm kinda proud of this one & wanted to share..... No glue, no screws- that's my neck template stuck in the neck pocket & defying gravity. I can't wait to play this one....... I am assuming that you have or have access to a router, & some knowledge of different pattern following bits & their use. ? Whatever the case, you can make guitars easy enough if you stick with it. Let us know if & when you need help. Oh, remember that it's just a piece of wood & don't be afraid to screw up. Or better still, don't think that you won't screw up. -lpf3
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Post by sbgodofmetal on May 23, 2011 9:28:24 GMT -5
well i was thinking of trying it with plywood but for now i'll just be using it as a cheap effective practice material, although plywood doesn't make good guitars they do offer for great practice for routing as well as trying new paint techniques on, and there's quite abit of people around my area who'd love a strat floor lamp so i could still make a profit out of my practice pieces.
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Post by sbgodofmetal on May 23, 2011 9:33:09 GMT -5
lpf3 i've never thought of that, i'll have to look into that one. But right off hand theres a yellawood retailer near by but they deal mostly in precut floor boards and such, would that be a problem?
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Post by cynical1 on May 23, 2011 11:12:39 GMT -5
If you can find a cabinet maker in your area they will generally have a good selection of wood that they may be willing to part with...you know, bought it for a job and have 10% extra laying around collecting dust... They may even plane it to size for you at a small cost just to clear out some old stock.
And lpf3...very nice looking Telecaster you got there. I've got some 100 year 8" x 8" old pine beams stored under my barn that if I could cut them down I'd guess they'd make a very nice guitar\bass. They're hard as cement... I used a smaller one to shore up a floor and had to use turpentine to keep the router bit from smoking on 1/16" passes...
HTC1
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Post by sbgodofmetal on May 23, 2011 13:08:59 GMT -5
That is a nice tele, Makes me want one now. There's not very many places around here that make cabinets anymore and the few I know of mainly use presswoods or partical boards but there are a few other places i'll go try that use actual woods. On another note if l got a piece of 2"thick pine at about 14"wide and at least 4.5' long could i make a neck through body or would you recommend a different wood for the neck section of the guitar?
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Post by cynical1 on May 23, 2011 14:07:44 GMT -5
I've never seen a pine neck... Personally I'd be a bit hesitant due to its low torsional stability.
Maple is common, mahogany works and depending on the species can be very affordable. This is where your birch option may come in handy. Two pieces of birch glued together will be stringer then a single plank for your neck. Fingerboards can be had at LMI that are pre-radiused and have the fret positions precut to your desired scale. As far as fretboards, granadillo wood is very pretty and still very affordable and when fine sanded and steel wooled will actually shine before you apply the mineral oil.
HTC1
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Post by sbgodofmetal on May 23, 2011 14:41:06 GMT -5
i was actually about to ask about using birch for the neck. So out of curiosity, what should i be expecting tonally from a poplar body and a birch through body neck?
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Post by thetragichero on May 23, 2011 17:25:49 GMT -5
pfffft tonewood my plywood squier strat sounds killer
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Post by cynical1 on May 23, 2011 17:51:07 GMT -5
As TH points out, there's nothing wrong with a plywood guitar. BC Rich got away with it for years... Many very nice sounding acoustics employ plywood tops. i was actually about to ask about using birch for the neck. So out of curiosity, what should i be expecting tonally from a poplar body and a birch through body neck? There are so many other variables in determining the final tone out a guitar that it's be impossible to give you anything more then a general idea. I would be inclined to thing the neck through birch will be the stronger determining factor. You should get better then average sustain, probably a brightish tone, but the poplar will help to bring out the mids a bit. This could all go in an entirely different direction depending on the nut, bridge, trem-leo system, fretboard, gauge and type of strings (roundwound vs. flatwound), your pickups, wiring options and electrical components... Accuracy, alignment and tight tolerances will have an effect on the tone as well. If the vibrations of the strings aren't cleanly transmitted your sustain diminished accordingly. As a beginner I would advise you to have a back-up plan for your neck. Necks are the trickiest thing to build on a guitar and can easily go to Hell in a Handbasket in a New York Minute. Unless you're planning on making dozens of necks then buying them out from a reputable source will be cheaper and yield faster results. A bad neck will ruin the finest guitar rendering it unplayable. If you do decided to go ahead and build your own neck plan on dropping several hundred on tools and fixtures. Some you can fabricate yourself, but it'll take quite a bit of research on your part to gain the knowledge to nail it. An count on making more then a few very nice pieces of firewood. There used to be a guy out of West Virginia that offered CNC semi-rough maple necks. Most of the CNC shaping and truss rod work was done and the frets were cut to scale. About all they required were sanding, the nut and frets to complete. I actually picked one up for about $35.00 on eBay and was very impressed with the result. When Project 2 is completed you'll see it. Happy Trails Cynical One
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Post by sbgodofmetal on May 23, 2011 19:53:16 GMT -5
even though there's alot of work involved and even more room for error, if l practice it enough and become adequite at it the final product will make the extra hard work well worth it. Although i do agree and will have a bolt neck and neck joint template standing by just in case.
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Post by sbgodofmetal on May 23, 2011 20:13:15 GMT -5
As far as the other factors: angled headstock, ebony fretboard, medium/high frets, Graphite nut radiused to match fretboard, hardtail string through body bridge(saddles adjusted to match fret board radius), stienberger gearless tuners, 3 carvin ap11 single coils, 6way pickup selector switch, 6way varitone switch, p/p volume/b&n oop, p/p tone/solo switch, DPDT on/on switch as a passive overdrive add.
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Post by sbgodofmetal on May 23, 2011 20:29:05 GMT -5
l've done my homework and have drawn up all of the electronics diagrams, and picked out parts. This is a project i've been working on for years focusing on one aspect at a time. This is the closest i've came to acheiving it all i need now is to practice and build up my experience before attempting it. you've all given me great advice and i look forward to hearing more. my last few posts on the topic are of my dream guitar but i want a few under my belt before i attempt it
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Post by cynical1 on May 24, 2011 3:42:34 GMT -5
As far as the other factors... This is where I'm going to ask you to be specific. I know you've got a character limit, so rack 'em up because these are things I'd be curious about... OK, a common design. Gibson's used it for years. Were you going to make this neck a two piece with an angled headstock or were you planning to scarf joint the angled headstock? I ask this because over the years I've seen scores of broken Gibson and Epiphone headstocks with an angled headstock. A scarf joint will be stronger, but the nature of an angled headstock can make it more vulnerable to breaking should the unthinkable happen and the guitar falls backwards flat on a hard stage or surface... On the flip side, I can't recall seeing many Fender necks in the shop for headstock repairs... By using a stepped flat headstock and roller string trees you can accomplish a sufficient string bend off the nut to keep you happy, especially since you're using a fixed bridge. Something to think about...and an angled headstock is more wood and more work. So, what angle were you going to use? And you thought black walnut was expensive... True black Madagascar ebony is getting very hard to find and even more expensive to buy. While it's been an accepted industry standard, it has fallen under protections dues to over harvesting and become like hens teeth compared to what it was 30 years ago. While ebony is hard as nails, it's not the only hardwood out there for fingerboards. There are still "ebony" fingerboards available, but it ain't from Madagascar and depending on the species isn't as hard as rosewood. The reputable suppliers will also tell you that dying is requires to get the traditional black look on these other species...the others will let you find out when you open the box... That being the case, you can dye any wood black, so why tunnel yourself to ebony exclusively? While the Janka hardness of ebony ranges based on exact species, you can safely go from 3000 to 4000+. For comparison, a maple neck will have a hardness of around 900-1200 +/-. Also keep in mind the harder the wood the more difficult it will be to work with. Extremely hard woods (bloodwood, purpleheart, ebony, ironwood. etc...) can chip when being worked with power tools. This means that if you decide to go with an ultra hard fretboard then you'll be hand shaping the radius and hand cutting the fret lines... and potentially hand drilling the fret markers... As far as other candidates...I just went to LMI and grabbed a few options: Cocobolo RosewoodHonduran RosewoodIndian RosewoodPau Ferro...and if you want to get real sexy and blow the bank at the same time... Snakewood (...but this stuff is getting hard to find, too...)Everything but the Snakewood is available pre-radiused and slotted. Just drop your fret markers and go. Got a dimension spec in mind? Stainless or nickel? With a hard tail bridge the graphite nut is a bit of overkill. A standard Tusq nut would suffice. And the radius will be matched by cutting the nut. The nuts are all standard size, unless you work from a rectangular block. Speaking of neck radius, what's the spec? Straight or compound radius? Wise choice for a first build. Trem-leo routes are a pin in the @ss. One thing to throw out to you, have you looked at the Schaller roller bridges? I personally love these things. It's the only fixed bridge I'll use on a guitar or bass. They're string through versus body through, so you save the drilling and ferrule install. They're available anywhere and can be had on eBay for about 1/2 their list price. I've seen these things a few times. They are very nice tuners. They do run on the expensive side, and I have to ask why you're selecting a locking tuner for a fixed bridge guitar? I've always like Carvin stuff. Sort of off the beaten path, unless you scored them on eBay... I have to wonder about the AP-11 as a bridge pickup, but people do it all the time. As I recall, depending on the vintage, the earlier AP-11 were Alnico and the later ones were ceramic...making the older ones more desirable to Carvin aficionados... Not sure what you've got, or how the tone changed. Might be interesting to hear the set. This is where I bow out to greater minds then I on the subject...plus my fingers are getting tired... I would suggest spending some serious time at Luthier's Mercantile with your shopping list. They are reasonable and over the years I've spent a lot of money with these guys and never got burned. Well, I'm tapped... Happy Trails Cynical One
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Post by sbgodofmetal on May 24, 2011 11:45:14 GMT -5
My choice for ebony is just preference, l was planning on ordering a preslotted and radiused one from stewmac. That schaller bridge is what i had initially planned on using, but i opted for a standard hardtail to cut costs. The stienberger tuners were chosen not for their ability to lock but to add a sleek and low profile feel, but at $99 a set i might as well just go with the schaller bridge after all.
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Post by sbgodofmetal on May 24, 2011 12:02:28 GMT -5
As far as the carvin ap11's they were chosen for several reasons 1st of which, l like their sound, 2nd is that their hand made not mass produced, 3rd of which is the fact that they retail at $39 but they're currently on sale at $29 (I was also sent a dvd from them with artist interviews, sound clips, and a video tour of the carvin workshop.) these are the factors for that choice.
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Post by sbgodofmetal on May 24, 2011 12:20:55 GMT -5
as far as the angled head stock, i've no clue. Really!!! l was planning on getting some templates from that link you posted in my other thread and going from there. My choice for an angled head stock is from the fact its a les paul i'll be building and i've never really liked the the fender styled step down staight head stocks.
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Post by cynical1 on May 24, 2011 13:04:04 GMT -5
On the angled headstock you can make it out of a billet, Gibson style, or make a scarf joint.
A scarf joint can be made right at the point the nut meets the fretboard as most acoustics are made, or farther up the neck, the way most electric guitars employ a scarf joint.
There is no one right way, it's what ever blows your skirt up.
I would suggest some Google time looking up videos and articles on scarf joints. Some of the ones I saw were good, some of them were complete rubbish... But sort through the chaff until you have a good understanding of the concept and how to pull it off with the tools you have available.
HTC1
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Post by sbgodofmetal on May 24, 2011 13:34:49 GMT -5
l've heard way too many horror stories on the gibson breaking so i'll probably lean more towards the scarf joint
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Post by sbgodofmetal on May 24, 2011 19:52:26 GMT -5
l googled it and yeah i'll be using the scarf joint and judging from other pics online i'd say it looks to be about a 72 degree angle. but i'm not positive of that. l guess it ultimately falls into preferance on how much of an angle you really want l guess
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Post by lpf3 on May 24, 2011 20:56:35 GMT -5
l googled it and yeah i'll be using the scarf joint and judging from other pics online i'd say it looks to be about a 72 degree angle. but i'm not positive of that. l guess it ultimately falls into preferance on how much of an angle you really want l guess It's 15 degrees. I actually thought you were talking about a store bought neck for your first project. Not that you can't learn to make a neck, mind you; but buying all the equipment you need will produce a sucking sound as your money leaves your wallet. Check this guy out, and his other videos as well. enjoy. -lpf3
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Post by sbgodofmetal on May 26, 2011 9:05:07 GMT -5
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