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Post by sbgodofmetal on May 26, 2011 9:15:32 GMT -5
oh and before i forget, when i go to make the neck billet itself could i use 1/2"thick planks glued together? Or will i need to track down a solid thick piece? just as a reminder i'll be using birch for the final neck.
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Post by cynical1 on May 26, 2011 10:19:06 GMT -5
There really is no "according to Hoyle" gospel on how many pieces you need to use to construct a thru-neck. What is important is that you construct the neck wide enough to accommodate whatever bridge\tailpiece you are planning to use in your design. For example, lets say your nut is 1-5/8" and you decide to use Fender spacing at the 21st fret, which puts you around 2-3/16". Lets assume your bridge measures 3-1/8". This means you'll want a minimum of 3-1/4", and more probably 3-1/2". You can get away with less provided all your mounting screws go into the neck wood and not the wings. The reason this is important is to preserve the benefit of sustain you gain from a neck-thru design. As you can see, a good deal of the wood will be trimmed away for the neck, but you want to make sure you don't have glue seams too far out into the back radius of the neck. Having said this, 1/2" pieces at the outer portion of the neck may become problematic. I dug around a bit on YouTube and found a very good basic overview of the steps involved in making a neck through guitar. This is not an extensive tutorial, more like a highlights reel of the project. He does a lot of things right here that he doesn't mention specifically. (Note how he uses a scarf joint for the peghead) I was personally impressed that he used home improvement store precut\pre-planed boards to build this guitar. Here's the first one: There's a series of 6 total, so if you want to follow the rest then check out Virgil605's YouTube channel. They won't make you a certified expert, but they will give you some much needed insight into what you're proposing to build. Just a quick tally on the tools he used in the video series racks up at over a grand... I can only guess what else is in his shop, but for reference, he came out the door at the end with a very nice looking guitar. I understand the motivation behind your desire to build a guitar, but remember that by the time you acquire all the hand and power tools you need to do it right you will have sped past the cost of a new Les Paul at light speed. Using the wrong tools or trying to do it on the cheap with hand tools will yield inconsistent results and possibly cost you a trip to the ER... Half of safety in the shop is the right tool for the right job. Happy Trails Cynical One
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Post by sbgodofmetal on May 26, 2011 12:36:26 GMT -5
what i was planning on doing is after the initial billet was constructed take my templates and mark my lines. Then i'd be cutting out the shape with a jig saw being sure to leave a slight bit of extra as to not over cut and ruin it in the beginning, then i'm planning on routing the truss cavity. Then using a low powered grinder or buffer fitted with sanding pads to get the rough shape followed by carefully hand rasping and filing. Then drilling the peg holes and a final hand sanding and applying the finish
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Post by sbgodofmetal on May 26, 2011 12:45:46 GMT -5
of coarse i've been thinking instead of a true through body neck just making a 3 piece body with birch in the middle with the poplar wings and just doing a birch set neck instead.
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Post by sbgodofmetal on May 26, 2011 20:13:54 GMT -5
But i'm at best still a novice, and would love all the help, advice, tips, links, ECT... to aid me in completion of the project.
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Post by cynical1 on May 26, 2011 22:49:58 GMT -5
The best advice I can give you is to read and research everything you can about guitar building and wood working. There is no substitute for a good foundation of knowledge.
Another piece of advice is to research the tools you will need to build said guitar. You can easily burn up a few hundred dollars on clamps alone and another $75.00 or better on metal precision rules. A drill press is almost a must. It doesn't have to be a $1000.00 tool, but a Dremel tool free handed is a recipe for disaster.
A router table is another very essential tool. Again, unless you have access to the funds there's no need to get a pattern shop grade tool, but something in the middle will make your life much easier.
Many of the power tools can be had at auctions or estate sales. Some States offer surplus purchases from their Universities, or individual departments. Knowing what you want, knowing the market value and just showing up with cash can yield a bonanza of tools for pennies on the dollar.
The real coin will get dropped on the hand and specialty tools. Some fixtures and jigs can be made, others will need to be bought out. For example, you can drop $75.00 on nut files, or about $6.00 on a torch tip cleaning set. For a one off, or occasional nut filing they work great. I used to have one in my bass case but time and CRS have lost it to the ages...
Again, haunt LMI and Stew-Mac to get a good understanding of what's out there. Haunt the Internet for tutorials and videos. Granted, some of them will be garbage, but there are many luthiers out there that are very generous with their hard earned knowledge.
I can't walk you through building a guitar on an Internet forum. No one can. They'd be lying to you if they did. I spent two years making parts and pieces of and fixing necks before I even attempted to build one on my own. Could I have done it sooner...maybe...but I would have made a lot of scrap in the process... Did that make me an expert? Not by any means.
You have to put in the time and learn. Double Yoi is now apprenticing himself to a luthier in South Carolina. He's giving his time to acquire knowledge from a very generous luthier willing to teach him. After a few years I'll be asking him questions...
Long and short of it is there's no quick way to learn this. It's not Legos...it's working with tools that can remove parts of your anatomy in a skinny minute. It's learning how to use a chisel, plane, spoke shave or scraper with a surgeons touch...as well as grabbing a router and making piles of wood chips and sawdust.
And it's more sanding then you ever thought you would do in a lifetime...
Count on 6 months of solid research before you begin to have an understanding of what you don't know. If you're Hell bent on shortcuts or the quick fix then just buy a guitar and mod it.
Now, go get 'em, Grasshopper
HTC1
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Post by sbgodofmetal on May 27, 2011 11:33:48 GMT -5
well just about every male in my family is a carpenter of some type or another, 3 of which have thier own shops and 2 of those i'm just about guaranteed access to except on sunday's and lodge nights(thier also freemasons). So tools wont be that big a deal. l can use thiers until l get my own shop started atleast, and it'd be good to have experienced hands right there to help too.
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Post by sbgodofmetal on May 28, 2011 16:38:35 GMT -5
Ok since it was brought up a few times, and now i'm even seeing fenders in musicians friend made from it. Whats the tonal properties of pine? And for those guitars that are made from plywood, would that be "ANY" plywood or that expensive $30-$40 a sheet premium plywood?
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Post by cynical1 on May 28, 2011 18:15:07 GMT -5
Ok...Whats the tonal properties of pine? They're gonna sound just like as guitar... Honestly, depending on the amp, hardware, pickups and quality of workmanship it can range all over the place. Here's an example with Lollar pickups: If you built one out of pine, painted it so no one could see only about 1 in 5000 people could tell you what is was. Well, by the definition of "plywood", any Les Paul with a mahogany body and maple top is a plywood guitar...no one talks them down too much... Plywood guitars get a bad rap because they are usually the bottom of the line and tend to have cheap hardware and electronics. On the whole, they can sound a bit sterile, and depending on the other parts they can lose a little sustain. This is generally not a problem for metal players as the sound is so processed anyway no one knows what wood their guitar is made of. BC Rich capitalized on that fact for a few years by making some of their guitars from plywood. They would have gotten away with it for a few more, but someone decided to refinish their BC Rich and was none to pleased to see plywood on their big dollar custom guitar... I never saw the actual papers, but the word was that there was litigation brought against them for this practice. For laughs, how does the tone on this one strike you? It's laminate "plywood" construction...and no one ever complained to Gibson about it... Many builders use laminate "plywood" for acoustic guitars. It's cheaper and more consistent for mass production, and they sound pretty good. All of your questions are mute, as you've never really gone into any detail about what type of tone you're looking for. Happy Trails Cynical One
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Post by sbgodofmetal on May 28, 2011 19:23:37 GMT -5
Well as another downfall to the psp l can't view video. As far as what tones i'm looking for, yes l play metal, but l play rhythem guitar. As far as pickups i'm looking into a set of GFS mean 90's. l'm looking for low end and mid range emphasis, as l realize my choice of birch will give an exessive amount of high end as well as sustain, i'd really like the excessive sustain but with a diminished high end. so i'm thinking of just using it as a topwood or layered in between the other wood what ever it may be
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Post by sbgodofmetal on May 29, 2011 9:19:46 GMT -5
So l found this site last night ( www.audio-pro-central.com/WordPress/?p=40 ) that describes the differences in tonewoods, and another i'm having problems finding again that says pine has a well rounded sound in between ash and alder.
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Post by cynical1 on May 29, 2011 10:14:57 GMT -5
That sounds about right...no pun intended... Something most people fail to consider is the age of the wood used in making guitars. The older the board or blanks the more stable they will be. By this I mean that the moisture content will have matched its environment and whatever warps or cracks that are gonna happen will have occurred long ago...so what you see is what you get...and will keep... They'll also harden up over time, provided they haven't be finished. A very good source for older timbers is an architectural salvage yard. There was one in Chicago years back that I actually found enough chestnut to make dozens of guitars. I only bought a cutoff (something I still regret) and made a very sweet sounding bass out of it. Since American Chestnut was almost blighted out if existence, which effectively took it out of the lumber market about 100 years ago, the only place you can find it is in salvage yards... And the salvage guys know it... 100+ year old chestnut has gotten more expensive many of the exotics and what's left is generally of marginal use for guitars. So, if you see someone tearing down an old barn you might or factory you might want to offer them a few bucks for the boards. Planed and sanded they can be incredibly beautiful and generally as stable ay you're gonna find anywhere. And to give you some perspective on what does what on a guitar build, I found this on the Ormsby Guitar site. All the materials used to construct an electric guitar contribute to the tone. As a general rule, here are some estimates on the areas and parts of a guitar and how much they actually contribute. Of course, all percentages are to be taken as a rough guide: Pickups - 25% (Hotter pickups override the natural tone more, especially with active systems) Body wood - 20% Top wood - 15% Neck wood - 25% Fretboard - 5% Bridge type - 5% Scale length - 5% Neck joint style - 5% Other (nut, machineheads) - 5% If you know your mathematics, you'll notice thats more than 100% tone. Yes we do have more tone that the others They're out of Australian, not an place famous for luthiers, but I figured anyone who could make a guitar like this outta know something... Happy Trails Cynical One
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Post by JFrankParnell on May 29, 2011 21:05:13 GMT -5
i've been lurking this topic, and just wonder if anyone has any thoughts as to the shape of an electric, wrt the tone. A guy tried to tell me the sound of a tele vs. strat is mostly the shape. I reckon its lots more to do with the pups and the stuff that touches the strings.
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Post by sbgodofmetal on May 29, 2011 21:38:45 GMT -5
lmho its body shape does play a role. Lets say you have 2 guitars 1 is a std lp, the other some freakishly wild and erratic design. Both are mahogany with maple tops and necks and both use the same hardware, lets say stoptail bridge and 2 dimarzio HB's and heavy gauge strings. which one has more sustain??? high end???
The answer is the lp. Because all of the lp's body is together and not displaced the vibrations reverberate more evenly and sustain longer. Granted it's not a major factor in overall tone.
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Post by lpf3 on May 30, 2011 4:56:54 GMT -5
i've been lurking this topic, and just wonder if anyone has any thoughts as to the shape of an electric, wrt the tone. A guy tried to tell me the sound of a tele vs. strat is mostly the shape. I reckon its lots more to do with the pups and the stuff that touches the strings. Yeah, I think it's the metal in the pups that separates the Strat & the Tele- The Tele neck pup with its metal cover is muffled compared to the open sound of a Strat; also the metal baseplate on a Tele bridge pup and the metal bridge plate help give it that in your face sound compared to a Strat. That reminds me of an interesting point. Back when GFS was selling single Strat pups I bought the RW/RP middle pup & put it in the neck position of my Tele along with a Lawrence Black Label in the bridge. I liked it well enough- but I tried one of these baseplates and it made a noticeable improvement. It's just a cheap (although modded to my taste) Chinese Squier with (I think) an agathis body but it's currently my favorite guitar tone-wise. -lpf3
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Post by sbgodofmetal on May 30, 2011 6:00:07 GMT -5
so how exactly does one install those plates on sc's???
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Post by sbgodofmetal on May 30, 2011 10:11:56 GMT -5
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Post by thetragichero on May 30, 2011 11:30:47 GMT -5
i think it has more to do with weight and bridge style... a strat is contoured and hollowed out so you can put in a trem a tele is basically just a slab of wood with a fixed bridge (most often).... also the strings are in contact with the body through the ferrules and not the trem block
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Post by sbgodofmetal on May 31, 2011 21:10:27 GMT -5
ok l took some time today and drew out my template for the LP body. l took a picture but it's not loaded up on photobucket yet. Also has anyone here ever built or owned a guitar made of luan(not sure of correct spelling)
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Post by sbgodofmetal on Jun 1, 2011 9:10:49 GMT -5
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Post by sbgodofmetal on Jun 1, 2011 22:18:53 GMT -5
Went to a local lumbar yard today. l left with a bit of disapointment though. l asked the guy behind the counter what specific hardwoods they carried and what i'd be using it for, so we both walked out to the lumbar yard and he showed me what they had. The only hardwoods they carried were oak and birch, both were in plywood form in either 1/4" or 1/2" thicknesses and 4'x8'. the only solidwood thick enough to make a solid body was the 2"x6"x10' pine boards but were the rough cuts from the outer tree.....
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Post by sbgodofmetal on Jun 1, 2011 22:29:41 GMT -5
Continued.... the outer tree layer one side of each board was beveled from the natural curvature of the tree. ln most cases the bark was still attached. At the time i deemed them unfit for a guitar but thinking back l could have made several wicked carved top guitars with most of the carving done for me naturally. All i'd of had to of done was glue 2 pieces together, strip the bark, do some sanding, cut out the desired body shape, plane front and back ends to match, route, finish, assemble, and play.
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Post by cynical1 on Jun 1, 2011 22:46:43 GMT -5
You're gonna have to find someone specifically dealing in hardwoods, or cabinetry lumber. I'm not sure what part of AL you're in, but 10 minutes on Google came up with these: Hardwoods, Inc. of Alabama 180 Airview Lane Alabaster, AL 35007 800 467-4160 (ph) 205 664-0224 (fax) 205 685-8565 hia@hardwoodweb.comBuchanan Hardwoods P.O. Box 424 Aliceville, AL 35442 USA phone: 205-373-8710 fax: 205-373-6982 jim@buchananhardwoods.comHardwoods Unlimited Inc. Physical Address: 501 Pearson Drive Bay Minette, AL 36507 Mailing Address: P.O. Box 7535 Spanish Fort, AL 36577 Office: 251.937.0888 Sales: 251.583.9556 251.680.6634 FAX: 251.452.2111 (You can send them a message from www.hardwoodsunlimited.com/ContactUs.php) What you're looking for in body and neck blanks is not generally a stock item for most lumber yards or home improvement stores. Expect to pay a premium for wider and thicker pieces. ALWAYS..I repeat, ALWAYS ask the age and drying method for your wood. Too green and/or cut when it's cold or wet will crack and/or split all to Hell on you in August in Alabama...unless you're into that whole wood filler look... HTC1
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Post by sbgodofmetal on Jun 1, 2011 23:00:18 GMT -5
town, Double Springs county, Winston area code, 35553
To my "LIMITED" knoledge of the area i'd say alabaster, would be the closest to my area. And its the only town/city you mentioned that i've even heard of and i've been here all of my life (unfortunately) l hate it here. but thanks for posting those, l don't know if its because i'm on a mobile device or what but l hardly ever find much of relavence on google anymore.
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Post by sbgodofmetal on Jun 1, 2011 23:07:15 GMT -5
l've been thinking about the 1/4" thick craft wood from hobby lobby. But i'm unsure of what it is, l know from what limited info l have its either balsa or white pine. l'm leaning toward it being balsa though, so i'm off to the search engines to see what it has to offer,(Which i'm betting aint much if anything at all).
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Post by cynical1 on Jun 1, 2011 23:14:02 GMT -5
...l don't know if its because i'm on a mobile device or what but l hardly ever find much of relavence on google anymore. It's a poor workman who blames his tools... And I don't don't know much about AL myself, either. I traveled through there a few times back in the early 90's on business, but have been able to block most of it in the memory banks. Make a few calls and get a feel for what they have. I was lucky starting out in Chicago as there is no shortage of places to find guitar wood there. I live in zip code EIEIO right now, too. Most times the freight is cheaper then the gas. They can always e-mail you some pictures of what they have, once you get a device from this decade, so it's not entirely like buying blind. HTC1
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Post by sbgodofmetal on Jun 1, 2011 23:37:29 GMT -5
l can get pic's on here it's the video l can't get. So that would be a good idea to try. l'll be moving again pretty soon though, my girlfriend just got a 2 year scholarship to wallace state so we'll have to relocate hopefully i'll find some hardwood dealers near there.
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Post by sbgodofmetal on Jun 1, 2011 23:47:17 GMT -5
From what l read balsa is a no go... l've read it'll break under string tension, has no tone, no sustain, too brittle, lts not a true hardwood, ect... ect...
So cynical, l recall your post here about the veneer body guitar you and some friends made, any recomendations on veneers i've seen some good ones on lmi but i'd like your input on this since you have prior experience on the subject.
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Post by thetragichero on Jun 2, 2011 1:59:40 GMT -5
can you make a balsa guitar and coat it with like 50 coats of a hard poly just so you can laugh at tonewood snobs?
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Post by sbgodofmetal on Jun 2, 2011 8:25:40 GMT -5
can you make a balsa guitar and coat it with like 50 coats of a hard poly just so you can laugh at tonewood snobs? that would be funny to see the look's on ppl's face's when they find out its balsa!!! Although l found out gibson used it for the cores of thier semi hollow models here a while back, so there maybe something to it we don't know yet.
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