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Post by sbgodofmetal on Jun 4, 2011 16:47:00 GMT -5
And this has been a project of mine for years. l've attemped to research via google for years and i've pretty much found close to nil, i've found a few tid bits here or there but they were lax info at best. l'm looking into this as a business and if there was a luthier close by i'd of hit them up for apprenticeship years ago. Now l respect your decisions as l want others to respect mine, but l never expected 'ANYONE' to just teach me. Just a nudge in the right direction is all l expect, unless its specific
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Post by cynical1 on Jun 4, 2011 19:03:24 GMT -5
I really have to debate your comment on there being next to nothing on the Internet regarding luthier skills and guitar building. There is more on the Internet then any library you're likely to walk into. There are mountains of information from some very good luthiers out there willing to share some very good tips on instrument building. Double Yoi got lucky and found a luthier near his home to take him on as an apprentice. Honestly, if you genuinely want to do this for a living you've got to get picked up as an apprentice, or weasel your way into a larger builder and work you way up to their custom shop. You're about 175 miles and 25 years too late for Peavey. Back in the day their custom shop was humming. And to outfit your own shop you can about double the estimate I tossed out earlier. You're also going to need to put together some type of spray booth, or segregated area so the dust from the wood shop doesn't interfere with your finishing since both will be going simultaneously if you open a shop. Then you've got the joys of dealing with bankers and lawyers...finding vendors who deal with small OEMs and setting up the tax-exempt status you'll need...along with permits, inspections, etc.... And the best part is collecting from your customers... That's a lot of Googling... Honestly, if you hate the area you're in, then start putting the word out to luthiers and see who comes back offering you an apprenticeship. You won't make much money, if any, starting out. You'll get a lot of menial jobs in the shop until they see what you're capable of doing. Stick it out for 3-5 years and then you're about 15%-30% of the way there to making money building guitars... I'm not trying to be a bigger pr ck then I normally am. I just think that in such a highly competitive industry, you need an edge, a gimmick, a brilliant idea...or a lot of time and patience... It ain't an easy row to hoe. You need to go into it with your eyes open and the support of the family and friends. Since the Internet is leaving you dry, head over to LMI's Book Section. Start anywhere, they're all good. If there's a library closer then Birmingham, then start there. If they don't have a book in house they may be able to order it from another library. Try to find these: Big Red Book of American Lutherie from the Guild of American Luthiers. Lutherie Tools (Guild of American Luthiers, ISBN 0-9626447-0-6) Make Your Own Electric Guitar (Melvyn Hiscock, ISBN 0-7137-1706-8) Making an Archtop Guitar (Robert Benedetto, ISBN 1-57424-000-5) Guitar Finishing Step-By-Step (Dan Erlewine and Don MacRostie, Stewart MacDonald) Wood Handbook – Wood as an Engineering Material (U.S. Dept. of Agriculture, General Tech. Report FPL-GTR-113) That should get you started. HTC1
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Post by sbgodofmetal on Jun 4, 2011 21:36:23 GMT -5
Well to clarify its not that l can't find it online, its that l can't find it on google. Too much irrelevence keeps showing up. lts getting to be like limewire, where you can type in the search bar the most innocent of things and 9/10ths of the results are porn. l remember back when google was dependable nowwa days i'm highly concidering a new search engine. As far as the books not a single library within 50+ miles of me has what i need.
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Post by sbgodofmetal on Jun 4, 2011 21:46:04 GMT -5
l do have a list somewhere with a ton of luthiery books, dvds, and plans, i'll have to track it down again especially since every single scheme and diagram l have is with it. My best guess at the moment on the books is downloadable PDF's and e-books. l found a place in huntsville al, that does electronics auctions twice a year, and most of its brand new never opened 75%-95% off retail so i'll be hitting that up a.s.a.p. l missed the 1st one so l'll try to hit the before christmas auction.
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Post by sbgodofmetal on Jun 4, 2011 21:58:05 GMT -5
For the record, you may be cynical, but your no pr@#k. l enjoy your critique on everything. And thank you for the advice so far, it hasn't fell on blind eyes/deaf ears which ever you prefer. A few of those on your list where already on mine but i'll add the rest later in the mean time like i've posted earlier we're moving to cullman soon to be close to her colledge and i've been scouting places so hopefully something good will turn up soon. l do know for fact there are several hardwood suppliers there.
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Post by KIIMH on Jun 4, 2011 22:36:06 GMT -5
..... you can type in the search bar the most innocent of things and 9/10ths of the results are porn. Sad, butt true. It makes my heart ache ... like angina. D2o started a thread about finger lube here once - taht a-hole shoulda know better! keyl
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Post by cynical1 on Jun 5, 2011 13:20:30 GMT -5
..... you can type in the search bar the most innocent of things and 9/10ths of the results are porn. Sad, butt true. It makes my heart ache ... like angina. D2o started a thread about finger lube here once - taht a-hole shoulda know better! keyl All I can say is that is you want the right answer you have to ask the right question...or you'll just get "42" back... Thanks for dropping by, KIMH...and while you're here...SMITE! HTC1
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Post by sbgodofmetal on Jun 5, 2011 13:48:14 GMT -5
C1, l went back and reread your post on the lowes precut boards and i'm having a little difficulty understanding your measurements, its either my screen res' or an innosent typo, or i'm seeing it right and just dumbfounded. But you stated that they where 1'(one foot) thick, and go out to 2'(two feet) to 6' (six feet). Did you mean 1''(one inch) thick and could go as thick as 2''(two inches) to 6''(six inches) thick???
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Post by sumgai on Jun 5, 2011 14:48:07 GMT -5
All I can say is that is you want the right answer you have to ask the right question...or you'll just get "42" back... Ahh, I see the Vogons have finally taken over Google....... Man, it doesn't take any kind of judge to see how old you are! Thanks for the grins (better than fish, in my book!).
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Post by cynical1 on Jun 5, 2011 15:03:21 GMT -5
They would be 1" thick, 2"-6" wide and anywhere from 2' to 4' long.
On-line they only show the 1" thick boards, but in the store I know I've seen 3/4" thick boards.
Lowes, Menards, Home Depot all carry these boards. They're precut, planed and joined square and flat, then wrapped in plastic. For the amount you wood you'll need for the average guitar body you can be in and out for under $50.00.
Clamps and glue extra...
HTC1
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Post by sbgodofmetal on Jun 5, 2011 15:26:49 GMT -5
Hum.... Sounds pretty reasonable i'd probably go with 1'' thick and add a 3/4ths top. l've pretty much decided on a pine body, with either a birch or an oak top. Pending on what our stores have in stock. lf the grain looks good enough i'll go with poplar but i'm definately using pine for the body. l'm also kicking up the dificulty abit, and attempting a semi-hollow body w/custom shaped f holes. So its probably safe to say using pine for the body i'll need wood hardener too.
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Post by sbgodofmetal on Jun 5, 2011 15:36:20 GMT -5
2''-6'' wide huh? Ok, lf l can get it precut i'll probably just stick to 2''x1'x10' pine slabs and use the others as tops to cut costs and save glue, and this way i'll have extra wood for more bodies in case i fudge one or two up for around the same price.
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Post by cynical1 on Jun 5, 2011 15:55:35 GMT -5
It will simplify your life quite a bit going this route.
Chambering a guitar does not always require an f-hole. I personally never put them in. Trying to sand and polish out an f-hole on anything other then an archtop is tricky and time consuming.
What you're really after is a bit more resonance in the body, and to shave a few grams off the weight. Making a template of the chambering you're after will improve your results. I would suggest staying as far away from the pickup routing, neck pocket and bridge location as you can the first time around. You may not want the control cavity in your routed chamber as shielding it can become problematic. I prefer to backroute these, but that's just a personal preference.
If you're feeling froggy, you can take a finger plane and carve some extra material out of the top and bottom to get a bit more resonance. I would suggest putting the power tools away for this job as it's real easy to zip right through and create and accidental non-f-hole on the body...
You can pre-route all your wiring access in the body prior to applying the cap. Don't get too fancy, because if the glue seeps into intricate little channels it'll plug them up, and depending on how you routed them they become unsalvageable after the top is glued on.
I'd look closer at the poplar for the body over the pine. Poplar has fewer naturally occurring inclusions and flaws...so less wood filler and gran filler...
If you do go with the pine and you decide to use the wood hardener, make sure you get your pre-stain and stain on the wood first. Once the wood hardener goes on no stain or dye will penetrate it.
HTC1
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Post by cynical1 on Jun 5, 2011 15:57:31 GMT -5
Ahh, I see the Vogons have finally taken over Google....... ...actually, it's the white mice that you really have to watch out for...
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Post by sbgodofmetal on Jun 5, 2011 16:19:00 GMT -5
Ok, my plan was to do the neck joint first then run a 4'' long 1/4"-1/2" wide channel down the middle with an angled channel going to the control cavity. l have ommited the extra switch cavity and moved the switch to the control cavity.
l'll go ahead with an all poplar body and do either an oak or birch top. l'll try it channeled first.
l'm planning 2 builds on this project both will be setup the same except one is either semi-hollowed or channeled and the other is solid.
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Post by sbgodofmetal on Jun 5, 2011 16:32:34 GMT -5
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Post by sbgodofmetal on Jun 6, 2011 12:54:02 GMT -5
Ok, my girlfriend finally let me have some time on the laptop. Those video's were very helpfull thanks lpf3 and c1. l'm on lowes website as well and i'm seeing poplar boards 1"x8"x2'-10', and 1"x12"x2'-10'. They also have 1/4"x2"-12"x2'-10'. The 1"x12"x4' poplar is $17.98 per board, and 1"x8"x4'poplar is $12.98 per board. The 1"x8"x4' red oak is $16.72 per board. More than likely to use the 1"x8"x4' boards since my template body measures 13"x16". it was taken from a chinese double cut away LP l salvaged out of a trash can. Total (tax included) $32.07 just for the poplar body and red oak top for one guitar body. Not a bad price provided one board provides more than enough to make up the width and length and the two glued together is about the right thickness at 2". l may wind up trimming it to 1-3/4". lt seems to be a standard of sorts, but out of curiosity would it hurt to leave it at 2" here's the template here's the double cut away
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Post by sbgodofmetal on Jun 6, 2011 12:59:15 GMT -5
l'm thinking for added body strength i'll run the poplar side to side and the red oak front to back like normal top woods. Any comments or suggestions on this method??? And just to save time and injury, i'll just use this for the neck www.guitarfetish.com/Satin-Finish....lem_p_2124.htmll hate stepdown headstocks but at that price i'll deal with it, ya never know it may grow on me over time. A 1 quart can of minwax dark walnut stain and sealer $7.57, and is this a suitable glue for a guitar??? www.lowes.com/pd_163877-63-E730_0....glue&facetInfo=And theres so many different styles of clamps is there a specific kind i'll need of is that a preferance???
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Post by cynical1 on Jun 6, 2011 19:55:29 GMT -5
And theres so many different styles of clamps is there a specific kind i'll need of is that a preferance??? Ahh..a homework assignment beckons... If you're doing a two or three piece body and top cap construction these will work. For clamping the cap and the body together, these will work. So, there's a boatload of bar clamps of varying length, a few spring clamps if you do a belly relief and a few deep reach c-clamps. The picture also shows a very unique very deep reach pair of vice grips, but you can get around that with a few hardwood boards crosshatched across the middle with some c-clamps. Now, if you can score the laptop again you can count up the total needed, head over to the Lowe's site again and have a pretty good idea what the clamps are going to cost you. I can give you a ballpark of around $200.00 to $250.00. Although the first picture doesn't show it, you might want to use a few c-clamps to hold the body pieces together while gluing to prevent them from cupping on you. Make sure your clamps don't extent past the bottom of the blanks, and that you glue and clamp them to a perfectly flat layout table or fixture. The second picture appears to be after the fact and is only for displaying the technique prior to removing the clamps. And avoid the tendency to buy cheap homeowner grade clamps if you intend on opening a shop. The cheap ones tend to die off quickly under constant use. Happy Trails Cynical One
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Post by sbgodofmetal on Jun 6, 2011 22:23:43 GMT -5
(Back on psp ) Being a trained welder/fitter/fabricator, l have used the spring loaded vice-clamps extencively l can pick up quite a few of those fairly cheap at cullman, between the various surplus, tool stores, flea market vendors, who carry them l could score a 6 pack of the actual 'vice-grip' name brand for under $20 most of which are either new but opened, or old but never opened, alot of times the opened ones were from bulk whole sales or set out for display at one point.
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Post by sbgodofmetal on Jun 6, 2011 22:40:04 GMT -5
Of course, being so familiar with these, l know the quality from the crap, and will run a meticulus 5 point inspection of each one before l ever concider removing my wallet from my pocket.
1, must be cast, not rolled thin plate. 2, must open and shut with a liberal amount of force. 3, spring must not give no more than 3/16''th when touched, 4, must not show any structural weakness' when pressure is applied. 5, must have 'VICE-GRIP' name brand and quality made in USA stamp before i'll EVER concider it.
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Post by sbgodofmetal on Jun 6, 2011 22:50:01 GMT -5
Other things l was trained to look for.
lf its got rust, it ain't a real vice-grip, the only knock off that even comes close to their quality are cast mild steel and chrome plated. A true vice grip is cast stainless and are marked showing that fact, lf its hollowed and feels light its rolled plate or cast aluminum. Aluminum is fine for delicate materials but avoid rolled plate.
lf it shows any major damage set it down and find one better!!!
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Post by sbgodofmetal on Jun 6, 2011 23:04:47 GMT -5
l haven't been in the market for bar clamps until now and i'm completely unfamiliar with them are there any specific brands l should avoid for those??? C-clamps are about like the vice-clamps l can get quality name brand for about as much as the vice-clamps most of the time in bulk, and like the vice-clamps l know what to look for so at least l know l won't be getting ripped off (unless they're stolen).
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Post by sbgodofmetal on Jun 6, 2011 23:11:35 GMT -5
lts always an advantage to know what it is your looking for and how to tell its quality, if one could do that they could make a clean concience, low budget purchase, and still come out with name brand and quality tools. Of course being skilled at haggling helps "ALOT" too
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Post by cynical1 on Jun 7, 2011 6:25:33 GMT -5
Most of my clamp purchases go back over two decades. Unless I went out and looked at them I couldn't tell you who made them, but I believe they're mostly Jorgensen. I know they set me back a few. Odds are the folks who built most of mine are dead and gone from a fatal case of Offshoreitis. I have picked up a few pistol grip ratchet type bar clamps with the wider plastic covered jaws recently. I do like those as they're a lot easier to work with then the traditional threaded clamp jaws. The ones I picked up look like this: Depending on the reach they run around $25.00-$30.00...but don't quote me. The thing that sold me on these is the I-beam versus a flat bar in the design. You can toss a ridiculous amount of torque on these bad boys and they won't twist. The quick release feature is handy. If you've ever torqued the Hell out of a bar clamp and gone back the next day to get it off you'll understand. This quick release actually works. You can reverse the jaws and make a spreader out of them, but I haven't tired that yet. And my guess is he only used the vice grips to locate and hold the plexiglass sheet he used to protect the wood from the array of clamps. You're never going to get the distributed force needed to hold the cap to the body with vice grips. HTC1
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Post by sbgodofmetal on Jun 7, 2011 8:44:24 GMT -5
Yeah l understand that completely, though l have only a few tools and no shop l do have several years experience working in them. l figured as much after l had time to think on it, at least l can get good c-clamps for around the same under $20 a set of 4, l love these warehouse/surplus sales.
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Post by sbgodofmetal on Jun 7, 2011 9:55:43 GMT -5
l was just thinking, what if i drill holes along the sides of the boards and run dowel rods through them to aid in alinement. Wouldn't this also reduce the amount of clamping required???
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Post by cynical1 on Jun 7, 2011 10:14:03 GMT -5
Generally speaking, about the only time you're going to use dowel pins for alignment is on a neck-through construction.
Either way, they won't reduce the amount of clamps you use. Your intention is to achieve the thinnest glue bond possible. That's where the strength comes from by evenly adhering the two surface together.
You could use the dowel pins and just stick the body between two sheets of plywood and park the truck on it overnight...that'll eliminate the need for all those clamps...
HTC1
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Post by sbgodofmetal on Jun 7, 2011 10:49:10 GMT -5
Well i'll be using the clamps since l don't own a truck. But just for the sake of curiosity lets say the 2 piece top and 2 piece bottom are aligned and the glue has set and dried. Couldn't one just simply glue the 2 together and set it with a press much like the one you did the veneer guitar with??? l've been looking for one ever since you posted that image, and if it'll work it'd be worth the extra $$$ spent in my opinion. l'm not looking for the elusive easier way i'm just curious.
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Post by sumgai on Jun 7, 2011 11:12:36 GMT -5
Buy enough clamps, and you could have spent the same money for a cheapie used pickup!
And a book press is nice, but it's a one trick pony. A pickup, on the other hand......
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