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Post by sbgodofmetal on Apr 13, 2012 21:58:16 GMT -5
Well to start on my project I was planning on getting some 2"x12"x10'boards and making the body blanks 14"x17" but the thing is how durable would it be? Would I have to treat it with wood hardener or just add finish?
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Post by sbgodofmetal on Apr 25, 2012 2:26:19 GMT -5
So poplar suitable neck wood ya or nien?
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Post by cynical1 on Apr 25, 2012 8:11:04 GMT -5
No. Unless you like bendy twisty things...
HTC1
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Post by cynical1 on Apr 25, 2012 8:17:21 GMT -5
Well to start on my project I was planning on getting some 2"x12"x10'boards and making the body blanks 14"x17" but the thing is how durable would it be? Would I have to treat it with wood hardener or just add finish? So...it's a 2" x 12" board, but you're looking to make 14" wide blanks? Why not go 8/4 x 8", run them through a joiner and glue them in the center versus sticking a 2" extension on one side? What type of wood? Has it been aged or kiln dried? Body wood is not as critical as neck wood, but it still needs to be stable before you start working it. Your garden variety lumber yard specials are probably not what you want. You pay a premium for dried stable 8/4 boards for a reason. HTC1
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Post by sbgodofmetal on Apr 25, 2012 9:09:11 GMT -5
I was going to use 2"x12"x10' pine boards. But I decided on poplar in the end. I want to make it neck through body but will the poplar be stable enough for the neck?
I did find some affordable walnut at an 1 3/4"x5 3/4" at a $1.49 a lineal inch @rockler.com though but that will be for later might go ahead and pull the trigger before it goes up in price though.
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Post by reTrEaD on Apr 25, 2012 9:24:44 GMT -5
I was going to use 2"x12"x10' pine boards. But I decided on poplar in the end. I want to make it neck through body but will the poplar be stable enough for the neck? I think that has already been answered... No. Unless you like bendy twisty things... HTC1
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Post by sbgodofmetal on Apr 25, 2012 11:52:45 GMT -5
Thanks retread I missed that one the first time
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Post by sbgodofmetal on May 4, 2012 0:34:01 GMT -5
Ok does anyone here have any experience with wenge? Would it be a suitable neck wood?
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Post by cynical1 on May 4, 2012 6:53:41 GMT -5
Wenge is slightly harder then maple, which is harder then white oak. The graining is similar to oak if flatsawn, but not as attractive. IMHO, if it isn't quartersawn it's just plain ugly.
Most builders only use it for fingerboards. It is on the the endangered list, so it will cost accordingly.
A few things to consider, the sawdust from wenge can cause skin irritation. Not quite as bad as cutting old telephone poles with a chainsaw in August, but no friggin' picnic either. The sawdust is also a known respiratory irritant. And don't get a sliver from this stuff.
Long and short of it, if you want to use wenge then knock yourself out. There are better choices, less expensive, less annoying to work with and not on any endangered lists. If someone asks me to use wenge in a guitar the price goes up substantially. I personally hate the stuff and never use it unless the customer is paying through his bleeding friggin' eyeballs specifically asks for it.
HTC1
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Post by sumgai on May 4, 2012 14:37:48 GMT -5
sb,
I'd think that you're in Hickory country, eh? That's some pretty strong stuff, since it can stand up to crushing baseballs all day, every day. But I've no idea about how much it might cost.....
sumgai
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Post by sbgodofmetal on May 4, 2012 16:50:11 GMT -5
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Post by cynical1 on May 4, 2012 17:19:54 GMT -5
Read the specs again on the Rockler pieces. 3/4" is a thick as it goes, and they aren't even 6" wide. You'll need a minimum of 6 to wind up with a thin guitar and 9 to hit the typical 1-3/4" thickness. That's a lot of gluing to make a blank, and the cost will exceed the $86 from Exotic woods...before you add up all the clamps you'll need...and theirs is ready to go.
Also, the end grain ain't exactly pretty on wenge...and you're going to have multiple grain patterns and seams on the bottom and at the horns.
Wenge can have a very rough surface to fill if you're looking to go with a natural finish. It can be worse then grain filling flat sawn oak. And the dark wood will really bring out the silica in traditional grain fillers.
And get a good respirator and goggles.
HTC1
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Post by sbgodofmetal on May 4, 2012 19:26:16 GMT -5
I can understand that about the end grain and the pores, but the boards were for the neck and the body blank was well lemme jus say the body. But any way this isn't an actual project yet. Its just something I've been toying with in my mind. I do have two projects coming up though one is a solid walnut 59' les paul, and the other is a solid maple cs336. And I have a highly experienced carpenter helping me with both of them. That includes tools. ;D
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Post by sbgodofmetal on May 7, 2012 22:56:26 GMT -5
Although in the event I do decide to use wenge its good to know that I can get resspirators and chem suits out of the dispencery machines at work for free.
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Post by sbgodofmetal on May 8, 2012 12:24:40 GMT -5
Ok so I went to the library when I got off of 3rd shift, and went to www.rockler.com and the walnut to completely build project one is $176.98 with shipping. And the maple to completely build project two is $154.96 with shipping Now both projects are semi hollow, and I will have all the wood for the body, the top, neck, and a fret board, on both projects ;D I'm also thinking of taking the scraps and making my own pickguards, pickup rings, control plates, and a handful of picks out of it. And possibly swapping them so the walnut guitar will have a maple pickguard, maple pickup rings, and maple control plates, and the maple guitar will have the same in walnut. Thinking of also using scrap for some custom inlay work as well. Can't wait to get started on these projects.
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Post by sbgodofmetal on May 21, 2012 22:18:18 GMT -5
So for todays tonewood question is......
Bubinga, I've seen more and more guitars made of the stuff but how is it to work with?
My soon to be step son wants to learn how to play bass, so I suggested we build one together as a bonding experience. So I did what I usually do and went to www. Rockler.com and looked for some nice dark figured wood and saw bubinga and thought it'd look beautiful as his first bass guitar.
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Post by sbgodofmetal on May 21, 2012 22:41:32 GMT -5
What I had in mind was a three piece body. A wide strip of maple in the middle with bubinga wings and coccoabolo top and fret board. So i'd like to know how coccoabolo is to work with as well.
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Post by cynical1 on May 22, 2012 6:49:52 GMT -5
Cocobolo is an oily wood, even after what would normally be deemed sufficient seasoning. More so then most rosewoods. This can lead to issues achieving a good glue bond and applying a hard finish. It will also clog your tooling and abrasives.
The only thing I ever used it for was a bass fingerboard...once. Never had any more call for it nor inclination to use it again. I do recall it had a kind of sweet smell to it sanding down the radius on the fingerboard. I just oiled the fingerboard, so you're on your own if you want to put a hard finish on a cocobolo body.
Alembic has been using it for years and the rest of the major builders have a few offerings with varying amounts of cocobolo wood. IMHO, the only reason you're seeing more of it is due to the scarcity of more traditional instrument woods, not necessarily any structural superiority.
HTC1
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Post by sbgodofmetal on May 22, 2012 8:02:41 GMT -5
Thanks c1 I may just try some other wood then. The body is going to be bubinga and maple I was thinking of the cocobollo as a top wood and a fret board. But if its that oily I'll concider a new wood choice.
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Post by sbgodofmetal on Jun 4, 2012 19:50:58 GMT -5
So how would ceder and oak. Be made into a neck? Would it be strong enough to handle the tension?
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Post by cynical1 on Jun 4, 2012 20:12:12 GMT -5
So how would ceder and oak. Be made into a neck? Would it be strong enough to handle the tension? cedar = WTF...bad oak = OK, but will require grain filling, even is quarter sawn. I understand this is a big brave world for you, but you really need to take some initiative and start doing some research on different woods, their characteristics and workability. If you're serious about investing the time and money into a shop then this is something you're going to have to become intimately familiar with anyway. While I don't mind helping out with specific questions, if you want better answers you're really going to have to start asking better questions. HOMEWORK: Give me the specific gravity and Janka hardness of both cedar and oak. Give me 3 suitable alternatives for each in the same specific range spec. And tell me where the idea to use cedar came from in making a neck.... HTC1
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Post by sbgodofmetal on Jun 5, 2012 1:37:13 GMT -5
Ok let's get this rolling (takes deep breath and stands facing class...) Let's start with the janka hardness shall we!!!! Cedar- janka hardness 900 Red oak- janka hardness 1290 White oak- janka hardness 1360... Now the gravity or as I like to think of it natures vice clamp... Red Cedar- gravity 380 White cedar- gravity .29? Oak- gravity 590-930 Suitable alternatives for cedar... Spruce(in several different species) Rosewood Grenadillo Suitable alternatives for oak... Birch Ash Maple... Reasons behind concidering cedar as a neck wood... Its affordable on my budget I can get it in large quantities at a fair price Its local so no shipping charges!!! Reasons behind concidering oak as a neck wood... Same reasons as cedar with the additional knowledge that oak has been used as a tonewood for many years now.
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Post by cynical1 on Jun 5, 2012 7:34:41 GMT -5
Well, I gotta give you credit for sticking in there.
OK, the single most important thing to consider when buying wood for a guitar is the age, stability and moisture content of the wood. Ever go to the home improvement store and see all the boards that look like cork screws? That's green wood, possibly kiln dried...possibly just shown the kiln on the way out of the the mill... 12% moisture is a desired standard, but this is rarely disclosed, or even known at the home improvement store. You need to find a specialty or high end supplier to get this stuff, and you pay accordingly for the service.
The high end builders will store wood for years, some even store it for a decade or more, in a climate controlled room before they even think about working it into an instrument. This is impractical for most of us, so you really need to trust your supplier to provide you with the most stable wood available. This is especially critical in neck wood. What you might want to investigate are suppliers of architectural salvage lumber. These boards will be 50-100 years old and as stable as they're ever going to get...not to mention harder then granite...
Your stock of local readily available cedar is probably greener then you are and will warp and split all to Hell. Ever see a cedar fence post that doesn't have a huge split in it?
Oak has potential, much more then the industry gives it. Let's be realistic, anyone who has ever played a Les Paul for hours can attest to how heavy mahogany is. Oak, typically, is only about 10%-12% heavier then mahogany. By comparison, mahogany is around 20% heavier then ash, and can range for 20% to 35% heavier then alder and poplar. Chambering the oak alleviates most of this issue. The problem with oak, aside from the weight, is the amount of work that goes into grain filling and cleaning up the end grain. It doesn't take stains and dyes as well as other woods either.
If you're painting the guitar it becomes a non-issue. I've made a few poplar body with a white oak cap basses that sounded fantastic. Once the paint is on no one ever guessed right. And if you chamber the instrument it is even more manageable in the weight department.
And you've got to get over this "on the cheap" mentality if you're going to get into the business. The Chinese will kick your butt if you try and swim in that pool. I'm not saying you don't need to keep a handle on your costs, but if you're going to do more then make a nice pile of sawdust you're going to have to build a better guitar then the competition and take a smaller markup for yourself to stay alive these days.
Just to extrapolate further, since you seem to have your teeth into this idea pretty deep, in all of the questions you've asked you've never mentioned finishing an instrument once. Ironically, that's the first thing a buyer sees, and they'll run from butt ugly even if it plays like cream. Guess you know where your next homework project is headed...
Let me offer this. As you want to get into the business, learn from those that are already there. Carvin makes some very good kits for bass or guitar. Drop the coin on one and study the thing like your life depended on it. Back in the day I did a lot of repairs and had a chance to see what worked and what didn't by the number of times I had to fix what didn't. I also saw more then a few of my brilliant ideas crumble like a Chinese motorcycle...
Long and short of it, you're asking for driving directions, but the car is still in the garage. You have a lot of knowledge to absorb, and relying on a few Internet forums will never get you there. Read everything you can find at the library, Internet and buy whatever books you need. An apprenticeship under a luthier is the way to go, but that's not always possible or practical. Working part time in a cabinet shop, or pattern shop is the next best thing. You need to get your hands on the tools and woods to learn this stuff.
There are no shortcuts. To be honest, if you start now and work in earnest you'll be ready to impress people in about 10 years...and that's if you bust your butt.
If all you're looking to do is build your own axe, then disregard the previous few paragraphs...
Happy Trails
Cynical One
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Post by sbgodofmetal on Jun 5, 2012 10:14:36 GMT -5
In all actuallity the projects I've got now are for myself and a few family members but as the saying goes you gotta crawl before you can walk and you gotta walk before you can run. Well this is my crawling stage. I'm just starting out with anything I can get my hands on really, and learning by trial and error. I know I talk about starting a shop and making customs but you gotta start somewere right? And since there's no local luthiers around my area (that I can find at least) I've decided to go to trial and errer methods. If anything I could always make a killing in the guitar shaped floor lamp market ;D not all mess-ups are nessisarily unsalvagable.
Long and short of it what I'm doing now is hands on learning by gathering like you said as much info as I can on the subject and then putting to use on a few personal projects which if they turn out good enough I might deside to sell to fund even more projects.
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Post by sbgodofmetal on Jun 5, 2012 11:07:18 GMT -5
This may be a project of mine soo too The 3rd part was sadly not available for mobile viewing but I copied the url anyway.
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Post by ijustwannastrat on Jun 5, 2012 12:06:23 GMT -5
Here's my thoughts:
I love white oak, but where are you going to find any?
Also, concerning the body, I think a build like Brian May's would really take care of any weight issues. That's an oak guitar, with a mahogany veneer.
Do you have a local lumber yard that would allow you to dig through their stock? I think a guitar built out of local woods would be much more interesting than your average guitar from all over the globe.
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Post by sbgodofmetal on Jun 5, 2012 12:12:03 GMT -5
Other than the local big name stores and even the little name stores we have an actual hard wood distributor but I don't know yet if they'll do small sales to individuals or not. I'm leaning towards no but as soon as I track down the address and phone number ill find out for sure!
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Post by sbgodofmetal on Jun 7, 2012 1:00:48 GMT -5
Ok today's iquiries is about binding. So I know with plastic binding all you do is glue bend and bind with either tape or rubber bands. Now with wood binding does it apply the same or do you have to steam bend then apply it to the body?
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Post by sbgodofmetal on Jun 7, 2012 1:53:14 GMT -5
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