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Post by simes on Jun 14, 2011 4:21:05 GMT -5
OK, so we've got a two PU guitar, say a Tele or an LP with both HB's split, and we suddenly have an uncontrollable urge to quack like a Strat.
I wonder to what extent it is possible to wire in a cap or some other component that would act as a middle scoop to turn the existing twang into something approximating the Strat in-between sounds when both PU's are selected.
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Post by lpf3 on Jun 14, 2011 4:53:59 GMT -5
That's a real Deja-vu question for me. That's exactly what was looking for when I found the Guitarnuts site & what led me here in the first place  Others may correct me on this one; but I really think that that Strat "quack" has more to do with the location of the pups selected, and where along the string's length it's being picked up, than its electronics properties. I've only done a certain amount of experimenting with this but my Tele still sounds like a Tele & my Strat still sounds like a Strat.Of course, YMMV, let's see what others think..... -lpf3 |
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Post by newey on Jun 14, 2011 5:34:47 GMT -5
I think that's the main factor, along with the fact that one coil split from a HB is not going to sound the same as a SC pup anyway. Plus, no one can seem to really agree on what exactly "quack" is, as a quick web search will disclose. Not surprising, since it's a subjective description anyway.  |
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Post by simes on Jun 14, 2011 6:59:38 GMT -5
Sure, the spacing is what "causes" the phenomenon, which would be why 24 fret 2HB guitars give a more convincing quack than 22 fret 2HB guitars, but my question I suppose has more to do with shaping a sound via simple components to imitate another.
How could we define the broad differences between a Tele N+B sound and a Strat B+M sound? Less lows and mids, perhaps?
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Post by Yew on Jun 14, 2011 8:50:10 GMT -5
Maybe splitting to a different coil could do it?
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Post by roadtonever on Jun 14, 2011 21:21:29 GMT -5
4Real talked about 'half-out-of-phase' doing something to that effect. Two pickups parallel out-of-phase with a .005-.020uf cap in-line with one of the pickups.
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Post by newey on Jun 14, 2011 21:36:14 GMT -5
A few years back, we also had Tim's "Dial-A-Duck" Strat. Which is for a SSS Strat type guitar, and so not directly comparable. But the basic idea was to use a separate volume control for the middle pickup- which could be done with one coil of the neck HB, analogously. Wired like a JB, more or less. What he had there is (allegedly) a "variable quack", which might prove useful to "tune in" one HB coil with another to approximate that quack best. |
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Post by sumgai on Jun 15, 2011 0:35:02 GMT -5
Time to chime in.... The above posters who posited that "quack" comes from the position of the pickup along the string all had it correct. The whole reason we get that tone we call 'quack' is because of frequency intermodulation between two (or more) pickups. That's fancy jargon for phase reinforcement and cancellation, which is about to be explained, just sit tight...... In a nutshell, whenever you have a vibrating string, you have a fundamental frequency and several harmonics. The thing is, these harmonics are all multiples of the fundamental, which means that they are different lengths (wavelengths, technically speaking). That transfers to us seeing them as (or more accurately, us understanding them to be) going up and down at multiples of the fundamental. From that, we see that at a given moment, some of those harmonics will be on the upswing, and others will be going down. Now, how those are combined is what we hear, and is the basic way of describing what we call 'tone'..... or timber, or "that tone" or Mojo, or whatever trips your trigger. Interestingly enough, at the same time this is happening at one point along the string, presumably over a pickup, the exact same thing is happening at all other points along that string - only we observe different harmonics are going up and down at those other points, not the same ones. Now we have the scenario where we are combining the ups and downs from two pickups, and according to the previous paragraph, at any given moment in time we are either reinforcing even more strongly, or cancelling even more deeply, each of those harmonics. Position the pickups just right, and we have "chime-like" tone (Bridge and Neck in parallel, on most guitars). Position what we call a Strat's Middle pup in that region, and combine that with one (or both!) of the others, and we have a resultant tone that's colloquially known as 'quack'. Any of the xSpice programs will give you much more detail than I just did about which frequencies are empahsized and/or de-emphasized, as you model the positions of the pickups. But suffice it to say, after all this, that having only two pups, spaced as Bridge and Neck, will not give you quack - sorry, done deal. What you can do, with some judicious phasing and minimal capacitating (adding a capacitor across one of the pups) is to imitate a nearly 'quack' tone. Series out-of-phase (SooP) tones have a lot of cancellation of both highs and lows. Adding a cap seems to allow the lows to come through more strongly, meaning that the highs are still getting cancelled almost as much as without the cap. This gets one closer to the 'quack' tone than without the cap, but to my ears, it's still not the same thing. But then again, that's presuming that your ears will respond just like mine...... and the odds are, that's a false presumption.  You'll have to try it for yourself to see if the final results suit your tastes/needs. I think newey has already linked the thread that's pretty definitive, or at least it's a good place to start. HTH sumgai |
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Post by 4real on Jun 15, 2011 2:17:55 GMT -5
4Real talked about 'half-out-of-phase' doing something to that effect. Two pickups parallel out-of-phase with a .005-.020uf cap in-line with one of the pickups. Yes, there is some merit to the HooP sound, I think I used a .oo1, or at least something very tiny, might have to search about for the HoOP (alf out of phase) mod as it is silly easy (just add the cap as one of the normal phase switch X jumper and done!). At the very least it can give you a more 'usable' pase for when a full phase is just too much, as it often is. Series is a bit louder and darker, so the phasing is less of a diminishing of sound. I find it quite useful on my strat with superswitch wiring, especially for lightening up triple pickup selections and series modes generally. Also quite good with the neck/bridge selection that I favour. As it is a strat, i already got quack...LOL! I think there is also something about the strat itself, to me t is essentially a very hollowed out guitar...a giant spring cavity (the springs themselves addind to the sound), a suspended bridge, and often a giant pickup routing cavity and control area...all covered by a plastic top. So in many ways a kind of light hollowbody of sorts. As to a true strat quack, it is a physical out of phase as related to the pups positioning (though wired in phase) and because of this, the quack effect changes in ratio to the length of the string and the frequencies vibrating along it in relation to the position of the two pickups selected. This can not be electronically replicated. But, you can get close and quite valid tones. My dual HB Les Paul has a bit of quack with some settings. The tele mod for Jerry Donahue was supposed to do a decent impression, there was an old torres engineering (and others) mod that included a transformer, cap and resistor on a pot to 'dial a quack' kind of sound. Most are variations on the out of phase thing. I tired something like that to the phase switch of my tele. but I think i went back to the full phase as I quite liked it on that guitar. It is worth a try, at the very least you should find some happy lighter sound that is good if not entirely authentic. The cap required to the out of phase though is very small, but perhaps it is worth trying a few variations in that tiny range. |
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Post by newey on Jun 15, 2011 5:07:19 GMT -5
Just so we're all on the same page here, this is 4real's diagram of his implementation of the HooP idea:  which was taken from Roadtonever's thread on the topic, found in the design module area: Half Out of Phase |
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Post by 4real on Jun 15, 2011 5:41:06 GMT -5
Thanks, i forgot where i put it and the value of the cap...
in that diagram, it is on a tone control so the cap to ground is the one for that, the cap on the switch is the HoOP cap and 0.01uF.
The "easter egg" is pretty subtle, but perhaps on a darker pup it might be useful. I should perhaps have connected it to the bridge HB in this guitar.
...
I tried it on my tele, but put it back to a straight OoP switch, prefering that sound.
On my LP (and on my older '69 original with dual, two way splits)...if you split to the inner coils of a two HB guitar, you get a kind of 'quack'...not quite a strat, but a quack all the same.
I have been going through some old tapes and my old LP was the only guitar I had and played...there are a bunch of really very straty sounds there (I always had strat envy) produced largely with technique, particularly a kind of pinched technique and altering the amps tone controls to suit.
One should also not forget the neck and bridge sounds, these tend to be my default on all guitars. usually this is a sound that the strat lacks, I wired my strat with a superswitch and for-go-ed the middle only position. With a guitar like an LP with separate controls, there is a huge range of tones to explore.
If trying a phase switch, or say a tele with a five way that can accomodate a phase option, definitely give the HOoP a go!
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Post by sbgodofmetal on Jun 16, 2011 0:12:18 GMT -5
Just thought i'd and in my $0.02 here but,....
Why not use sc rail pups and rotary switchs??? 2 rails selected together with 1 being rw/rp, gives the same sound of a hb correct??? lf so why not just modify the ol' bucker ring and slap in 2 rails per slot, since 2 rails together take the same amount of space as an hb there'd be no trimming or body routing needed just drill 4 new holes in your ring mount. The best part is you can adjust the hieght of the individual coils. Use rotaries and be creative too!
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Post by sbgodofmetal on Jun 16, 2011 0:23:01 GMT -5
Ran out of type space. Use rotaries to create some wrather unique and creative pup selections. lt's quite simple, for an LP use 2 SP3T rotaries (switching to either an m. tone or use a d.c. pot for dual tone) and use the gibby 3way to select between them or have both. For the tele just use a tele 4 way blade, a SP4T rotary, and a d.c. pot for M.vol/M.tone, So whaddaya think so far???
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