Everything Axe Kit Schematics help!

[joaco2500]

Hi, i would be glad if anyone helps me out with my question.

I have the Seymour Duncan Everything Axe pickup set, which includes a Lil'69 , a Duckbucker and a JB Jr. As i have understood all of them are single coil sized humbuckers.

I'm building the guitar by myself, and now I'm facing problems with the schematic, because i don't know how to achieve what i want to do.

I want to have two two-way toggle switches for each pickup: one for switching it on, and one for splitting it.

I also want to have one master volume and tone control.

If anyone knows if its possible, i will be so happy to receive your help.
Thanks you very much in advance!

[newey]

joaco-

Hello and Welcome to G-Nutz2!

Have you already purchased the switches? What you want to do can certainly be done, and we'll be happy to provide a diagram.

However, you can simplify things by using 3 DPDT On-Off-On switches, one for each pickup. These can be set up to give you the full HB at one end, off in the middle and the coil split setting when flipped to the other end.

DPDT On-On-On switches can also be used to do this, and may be easier to find.

If you want separate switches for each pickup, that is fine, too. If so, you need SPDT On-On switches for the coil cuts and SPST On-Off switches for the on/off function. Or, just buy 6 SPDT On-Ons, those will work and you don't have to buy 2 different types.

[ashcatlt]

The coil cuts can be SPST On-Off also.

You'll need to put some thought into humcancelling in the SC combos. You can't have full humcancelling with all three on - one cancels the second leaving the third humming away. Of the 3 x 2 coil combinations, only two of these can be humcancelling. You'll have to decide which two you're most likely to use, and live with the hum in the third. That or you'll have to wire one of the pickups to allow you to select which coil is cut, which will require either an On-Off-On switch or a seventh switch.

[joaco2500]

Oct 19, 2011 21:15:33 GMT -5 newey said:

joaco-

Hello and Welcome to G-Nutz2!

Have you already purchased the switches? What you want to do can certainly be done, and we'll be happy to provide a diagram.

However, you can simplify things by using 3 DPDT On-Off-On switches, one for each pickup. These can be set up to give you the full HB at one end, off in the middle and the coil split setting when flipped to the other end.

DPDT On-On-On switches can also be used to do this, and may be easier to find.

If you want separate switches for each pickup, that is fine, too. If so, you need SPDT On-On switches for the coil cuts and SPST On-Off switches for the on/off function. Or, just buy 6 SPDT On-Ons, those will work and you don't have to buy 2 different types.

Well, thanks for the quick answer! i think that what you are saying is by far more intelligent, having just three switches.
Will it be the same if i used three ON-ON-ON or three ON-OFF-ON switches? Because if the first ones are easier to find, i rather use them.

[ashcatlt]

Oct 20, 2011 9:37:09 GMT -5 joaco2500 said:

Will it be the same if i used three ON-ON-ON or three ON-OFF-ON switches? Because if the first ones are easier to find, i rather use them.

It'll be wired a little differently one to the other, but it'll work fine either way. You'll still have to think about the hum cancelling thing, though.

[joaco2500]

I don't think i understood very well the humcancelling thing you told me. Can't i just do with 3 ON-ON-ON switches that would be humbucker-off-singlecoil?? If i had that wouldn't the problem be solved?

[ashcatlt]

Single coil pickups hum, right?

Humbuckers don't hum (quite so much) because there's two coils with the wires wound in opposite directions.

The middle position on a (more modern) Tele, or the 2 and 4 positions on a Strat don't hum (quite so much) because the two pickups selected are also wound opposite one another.

If you intend to turn on two pickups in SC mode, and have the combination not hum (quite so much) then you've got to select coils on each such that they are wound opposite one another.

But since there's only two directions a coil can be wired you can't have all three opposite another. Any way you split it, one will go one way and the other two will go the other way. Those two which go the same way will hum approximately twice as much as either one alone when combined. When you have all 3 SCs on, two will cancel and leave the third humming.

You can get around the first issue by wiring one of the pickups so that you can split to either coil. Make the other two permanently opposite so they will always cancel each other. Now you can pick the appropriate coil on the first pickup to cancel hum when combined with one of the other two. That needs either a 4 position switch, or two seperate switches if you want HB, South, North, and Off.

Or you can just say something like "I probably won't use M+B very often, but definitely want N+B and N+M to be hum canceling" and wire your coil splits accordingly, living with the hum on the rare occasions you use M+B. (These is an arbitrary, though popular, example, you can pick any two combos that you think you'll actually use the most)

There is nothing you can do for the "all three" combo:
1 + (1 + (-1)) = 1

[joaco2500]

Thanks for the amazing explanation ashcatlt!!! It was incredibly useful, and it made me clearer what i was getting into.

So do you think it will be okay to use three ON-ON-ON switches for each pickup, and a fourth one ON-ON for one of the Neck pickup that is used as a north-south switch? Then i would be able to switch it when i use the B-N combination

If that is doable i believe it would be the best option for me.

Could you help me out a little with the diagrams? I would be extremely grateful.

Thanks again for your great help!
Joaco.

[ashcatlt]

It's definitely doable. If I'm not mistaken, I think the On-On-On version is going to go HB-SC-Off. You can orient the switches any way that makes sense to you, but you'll have HB all the way one way, Off the other, and SC in the middle. Now that I think about it, this might complicate the Neck coil select switching a bit. The On-Off-On puts Off in the middle, but makes (my idea for) the coil switching easier.

I still haven't installed my Corel suite since the last computer meltdown, and don't really have time anyway, but I'm sure that some kind soul will hook you up with a diagram before too long.

[newey]

Here's a kind soul with a diagram for you (but not a hook-up, I don't do that . . . ;D)

A few notes on this. First, this is the On-On-On version; if you decide to go with the On-Off-On switches, let me know and I'll modify it accordingly.

I have used SD wire colors on the diagram; all your pickup's wire colors should follow this as they're all SD pickups.

The diagram is looking at the switch from the back, the way you would be wiring it. Notice that the internal switch connections are NOT symmetric, it matters which way the switch is rotated about its vertical axis. You'll need to make sure which way is which before wiring; I usually use a permanent marker to designate which end goes "up". Some switches will have a marking on the case to show which way it goes, others you'll need to check for continuity in the center position. A Multimeter is useful for checking this.

As Ashcatlt noted, the On-On-On version gives:

1) Toggle Down, Full Humbucker
2) Center, North coil only
3) Toggle Up, Off

If you want it the order reversed, simply rotate the switch.

Finally this is a module, part of your larger design.

All of your pickups will be wired similarly, although you may want to chose the South coil as ashcatlt noted, to maximize your hum-cancelling combos. To chose the South coil instead, the green and black wires will be joined at the center lug instead of the white and red; the red wire then switches places with the green, and the white goes where the black is shown.

As for a separate switch to do N and S individually on one pickup, I'll have to draw that up later as a separate module.

Your master V and T controls will be wired just like any guitar with single V & T, so you can use any diagram off the web for that. The Squier Bullet Strat, for example, has only the one tone control, so that diagram would work for you to follow.




I'm sure you'll have questions, so let them fly. (BTW, your English is excellent; I apologize in advance if any of my oddball American colloquialisms throw you off! )

[ashcatlt]

Okay, I was wrong. It doesn't really complicate the coil selection thing.

Newey's got you on the right track, but...

[controversial subject]
Selecting which coil gets selected by swapping the wires around - as newey - suggest works. It's really considered "best practice" around these parts. Most call it wiring a humbucker "inside out". I think it's more accurately termed "coil restacking". You're taking the "bottom" coil and moving it to the "top of the stack" without rotating either.

In order to accomplish this with a switch will require 4 poles. There are such things as 4PDT toggles out there, but they get a bit more expensive and noticeably bigger than the single and double pole versions. The wiring here would be pretty straightforward, but I can get the same result (coil selection) with an SPDT.

If you look at newey's diagram, you'll see that he is cutting to single coil by connecting the "series connection" wires to the green wire and ground. You can cut to the other coil by leaving everything else as is, but connecting that "series connection" to the black wire and output. Cut that black wire connected to E (but leave the green wire grounded) and jumper from B to E.

To be able to switch between the arrangements we run the common of the SPDT to E, one outside lug to B, and the other to some convenient ground point.

It's probably easier to wire than to explain.

There is a not-too-terribly-heated argument a'board about whether this thing of having a shorted coil "hanging from hot" makes a difference in tone or sustain or noise or anything. I personally don't think it's a big enough deal to go through all the brain cells that "inside out" wiring requires. One day I'll actually run a test, but I've guitars which do it, and I'm not unhappy with them.
[/controversial subject]

[newey]

ash and I are on the same wavelength here, and his way of reordering the coils to select South instead of North works as well. And hum-cancellation in single coil mode is a topic you should be considering as you move forward.

If one pickup is going to have a switch to select N or S coils, then that pickup doesn't need a 3-way selection switch as I've shown, but only an On-Off switch and then the coil selection switch.

To maximize hum-cancellation, then, you would have one pickup wired as I have shown. Let's say, for the purposes of discussion, that the neck pickup is wired as I have shown, so that for the neck, the North coil is the one which is "split" off.

The middle pickup would then be wired so as to select the South coil, using either of the techniques suggested above. This way, when you select both middle and neck in single-coil operation, you'll have hum-cancelling.

A good way to think of this conceptually is, by selecting the N from the neck and the S from the middle, you have essentially made a new humbucker, although the coils are widely spaced apart. You'll see this arrangement referred to around here as a "widely-spaced humbucker" for just that reason.

On to the bridge pickup, and if you want all combos to be potentially hum-cancelling, you'll use the extra switch here. This pickup will be wired differently- an On/Off switch and a coil selection switch. As I said, I'll get you a diagram up over the weekend for that.

With this arrangement, you then have the ability to select either the N coil, which you would do for combination with the middle coil in single coil mode, or the S coil, when combining with the neck.

As ash noted, with all three pickups in single coil mode, you won't get complete hum-cancelling, nor will you get it with one pickup as full humbucker and another as single coil. In any 3-coil arrangement, one coil will always be the "odd man out". Similarly, having one pickup alone operating in single coil mode will have some of the single-coil noise. Shielding the guitar's cavity is the best way to minimize this.

[joaco2500]

Thanks you so much people, you are being of great help! I want to do it just the way you said newey, but having the north-south and coil selector in the neck pickup.

I have no rush, and if you say you can help me out with the diagram over the weekend i will be more than glad to wait.

Thanks you very much again ash and newey for you huge help!

[ashcatlt]

newey - what you're proposing will require that the coil selection switch be a 3 way toggle of some sort - probably On-On-On - in order that he can still use that third pickup in HB mode. The way I described it, all three pickups get an HB-SC-Off switch (consistency) and one of them gets a second switch to choose which coil is selected in SC mode. This seems more logical to me.

[newey]

You're right, ash, I blame it on this killer headcold fogging my brain for the past week. TGIF, since I can hopefully heal up some over the weekend.

[newey]

joaco-

Here's a module for the neck pickup (assuming that's where you choose to put it. I did this a bit differently than ashcatlt suggested. This uses one DPDT On-On_on switch -the same as for your other pickups- to give you the full HB with the switch in the center, north coil alone with the switch "up", South coil alone with the switch "down".

This should work OK, but it isn't perfect because the North coil is left "hanging from hot" when the South coil is selected. As ash noted above, that's a bit of a controversial topic. It probably won't make a difference here but could be a bit noisier than if the coil were shorted instead. But having the full HB position in the middle seemed more logical, and I didn't see any way around the "hanging from hot" issue while keeping the order of switching intact.

A simple SPST On-Off switch is then used to turn the whole shebang off.

Now, ashcatlt was suggesting doing this differently, having a three-position switch to select HB/SC/Off, then a separate two-position switch to select which coil, N or S.

If you'd rather do it that way, I'll look at that option and try to draw it up. The pros and cons are that, by doing it ash's way, you'd have the same switching on all three pickups insofar as the HB/SC/Off switch is concerned.

With my way, the on/off switch is simpler and probably a bit cheaper. As far as ease of operation, either way is about the same. Play with the guitar for a few weeks and it'll be second nature either way.

[newey]

ash-

Looking at this further, I can't see how to do what you are suggesting with a two-position switch to select N or S, then a 3-way HB/SC/Off.

To select N and S, one coil gets grounded, the other goes to output, and vice versa. To get the full HB, we need both the red and white connected together. With a 2-way switch, one or the other of those wires will always be grounded, eliminating the full HB setting on the second switch.

Or, more likely, I'm just being more dense than usual and not "seeing" this.

[ashcatlt]

Your new diagram has what I call a true hanging hot. One end of the one coil is connected to hot output while the other dangles in the electromagnetic wind. You can fix it by jumpering the commons on the DPDT switch. This renders the blue wire redundant.

To your more recent post, I quote:

Oct 21, 2011 0:10:38 GMT -5 ashcatlt said:

If you look at newey's diagram, you'll see that he is cutting to single coil by connecting the "series connection" wires to the green wire and ground. You can cut to the other coil by leaving everything else as is, but connecting that "series connection" to the black wire and output. Cut that black wire connected to E (but leave the green wire grounded) and jumper from B to E.

To be able to switch between the arrangements we run the common of the SPDT to E, one outside lug to B, and the other to some convenient ground point.

[newey]

You can fix it by jumpering the commons on the DPDT switch. This renders the blue wire redundant.

Yeah, I knew the hang was there, good eye on how to fix it. I'll make that correction. That would also make the same diagram work with an On-Off-On switch as well, since the center connections then won't be connected to anything anyway.

As to how to do your version, I'll look at that again as well.

[newey]

OK, here's the revision to fix the hanging form hot issue, as suggested by ash:



And ash, while I understand how to swap the switch so as to select the south coil- which joaco will want to do on his middle pickup- I still can't see how to have a 3-way with HB/SC/Off and then a 2-way which selects N or S when the 3-way is in the center position. I keep looking at it and it seems that I would need another pole somewhere to lift the ground.

[joaco2500]

I got a little bit confused with some of the technical issues, but did i got it wrong or can I use four ON-ON-ON switches?

It would be very comfortable to have one HB-SC-Off switch for each pickup, and a N-Off-S switch for the middle one.

Correct me if I got it wrong, as i don't know much about soddering nor complex circuits.

[newey]

You can use 4 On-On-On switches, my version shows the fourth switch as being a simple on/off, but an On-On-On could be used. However, you'd then have 2 "off" positions- or 2 "on" positions, your choice.

It would be very comfortable to have one HB-SC-Off switch for each pickup, and a N-Off-S switch for the middle one.

On the N/S switch, the center can't be "off" or you would never get the full HB.

Ash suggested a HB/SC/Off for the neck with a separate 2-way switch for north/south coil selection, but I haven't been able to work that out yet. Doesn't mean it can't be done that way, perhaps it can and I'm just not seeing how to do it.

My version gives you what you want, at the loss of identical switching on all three pickups. In my version, at the neck pickup, you have one switch giving N coil/ Full HB/ S coil, with a separate switch to turn it off.

It may be possible- I'd have to look at this option, haven't considered it yet- to use 2 On-On-On switches such that one gives HB/SC/off (just as on the other pickups) and the second switch gives N coil/ Bypass/ S coil. In this arrangement, the second switch would be bypassed in the center position, back to the first switch. This would mean that the second switch would operate only when the first switch was set to the center "single coil" position. So, to select a single coil, you'd then have to have the first switch in the center, and then move the second switch up or down to select which single coil you wanted.

That means manipulating 2 switches whenever you wanted to put the neck in SC mode, when seems a bit cumbersome to me.

[ashcatlt]

newey - I'm not sure what you mean by lifting the ground. The green wire can stay grounded.

The SPDT On-On basically goes in place of the black wire you've got running to lug E. It switches between that green/ground connection and the black pickup wire/lug B.

[newey]

The SPDT On-On basically goes in place of the black wire you've got running to lug E. It switches between that green/ground connection and the black pickup wire/lug B.

OK, where's my smiley with the light bulb over my head? Gotta lead me like a dog on a leash sometimes . . . .

[joaco2500]

so this is how the definitive schematic would be? if that is so, i will sodder it as soon as i get the pickups, and then upload something so you can hear it!

[newey]

Well, I've given you the modules- with a good deal of help from ashcatlt. It's up to you to pull it all together into a single diagram that you can wire from.

To recap where were at:

1) Use my first disgram, as is, for the bridge pickup switching

2) Use my first diagram, with the changes discussed by ash, to select the South coil, for the middle pickup.

3) Use my last diagram, with a DPDT and a SPDT, for the neck pickup.

4) Use any standard master Volume and Tone scheme to wire the V and T pots. This module goes after the pickup switching, right before the output jack.

I would strongly suggest that you draw this up yourself, by drawing it all together into one diagram, you'll get a better feel or how it all fits together. This will save you time as you wire it in the long run, and will allow us to double check that you have it all correct to start.

Post your diagram and we'll vet it for you, the best way of learning is by doing.

[joaco2500]

Guys, I believe I have a huge problem: there are no ON-ON-ON dpdt switches nor ON-ON spst switches in my city, and i couldn't find anywhere to buy them.

The only ones i can get are ON-OFF-ON dpdt , and ON-OFF spst ones. Is there any chance I can do it with these ones?

[ashcatlt]

Can you order online? I use mouser.com

Otherwise you can sub a DPDT On-On in place of the SP. You'll be ridiculed (only a little) around here for having an unused pole. We can work with the On-Off-On. The basic concept will be the same, but the order will be different.

[joaco2500]

I think I'll have to be ridiculed a bit, as the only switches i could find are these ones, and I can't order online at the moment

[newey]

I will redraw the modules for you using the "center off" switches, but it may take me a day or two, as work intrudes on my guitar time.

The double pole On-Off switch is fine, you'll just be using half of it. But in your picture it seems to have 3 lugs per side (which some on/off switches do, depending on whether the mfr. uses the same frame for the On-On version as for the On/Off).

So you will probably need to check that switch with your meter to see which end is the "off" end, and mark it accordingly, unless there's a marking on the switch that I can't see on your picture.

The On-Off-On switches are symmetric, so no worries there. The On-On-On ones have to be checked as the center position is assymetric, but the "center off" ones don't have that issue. So, no real need to check those (other than to ensure that they are working, which is always good to check. I've had bum ones fresh from the factory)