tw0409
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Post by tw0409 on Nov 17, 2011 18:07:50 GMT -5
Hi everyone, I am new to this site as well as the world of guitar wiring. Recently, I have purchased some new pickups... 'Lil 59 for neck, dimarzio cruiser for middle and JBJr for bridge. I was looking to build a versatile setup which also eliminates hum at the same time. I plan to use 250k pots, 1 push/pull volume and 1 tone with no other switches. I have searched through lots of diagrams and find this one suits me the most (at least for now...) www.dimarzio.com/sites/default/files/diagrams/3hep1112_1v1t_n&bparallel.pdfMy question now, how do I include a push/pull volume to get 1 bridge coil + 1 neck coil when the pot is pulled? Also, when the pot is pushed, all the p/ups settings(series parallel) are kept as stated in the diagram. If possible, can someone provide a full wiring diagram please. If there are other useful possibilities that fit my spec please enlight me! help me out here Thanks
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Post by newey on Nov 17, 2011 21:42:15 GMT -5
tw0409-
Hello and Welcome to G-Nutz2!
First off, I don't know if you caught the error in the DiMarzio diagram. It states to "Solder the black and white wires of the neck pickup together" and tape them up. But you can't do that, because the neck pickup's white and black wires are shown going to different places on the 5-way switch.
They must mean to do that to the middle pickup's black and white wires, since it's the only one of the 3 pups not being wired for series/parallel.
Anyway, as to your question, not sure exactly what you mean by:
In this scheme, there is only one pickup operating at a time. The neck and bridge are never on together on the 5-way.
So, do you want this switch to split the bridge pickup to a single coil when the 5-way switch is in the bridge position, and to likewise split the neck when the 5-way is in the neck position?
Or do you want it to turn on the N and B together, with both in single coil mode, thereby overriding the 5-way setting?
The first one may be able to be done; the second one will probably require more than just a P/P pot to accomplish.
But allow me to make a suggestion. I can't imagine putting 3 nice little humbuckers in a guitar and not having at least some options to have more than one pup on at a time. And if you rearrange your desired 5-way settings a bit, you can give yourself some additional options.
My idea would be to take the middle pickup off of the 5-way switch entirely, and just have the Superswitch handle the N and B switching, with your coil cuts in the center position:
Neck parallel Neck Series Neck SC + Bridge SC Bridge Series Bridge Parallel
The P/P pot then is used to turn the mid pup on/off. This can be done such that the middle pickup is on by itself to the exclusion of whatever is on the 5-way, or where the middle pickup is on in addition to whatever is on the 5-way.
The first way gives you the middle alone, just like on the DiMarzio diagram. It's just on the P/P, instead of in the middle of the 5-way switch.
The second gives you N + M, M + B, and all three pickups at once, with the N and B cut to SC. But you lose the middle by itself, if you're a fan of that position.
Just a thought, but again, I think some multi-pup combos are a good thing to have.
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tw0409
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Post by tw0409 on Nov 18, 2011 0:10:14 GMT -5
Hi Newey,
With my limited understanding, I did not even know what was wrong with that diagram. If you don't tell me, I would just follow it...
I like the idea of getting an array of different outputs. From I have learn recently, parallel will give less output and series produce 100% of it. I choose that diagram because it gives parallel and series of neck and bridge, which is like a gradient of output.
For the middle, I want it un-splitted. I am sure you know the cruiser has an output of 5.75 . If I split it with something else, would it sound strange? I am just theorizing...this is the first time I deal with SC-sized humbuckers... I have been with SC for age.
OK... so I actually thought of getting combos of different coil or combos of different pups...but last time I was consulting on another forum I am told that it would be very hard with my spec.
Anyways, please feel free to put up suggestion. Actually, the only three things I really want are
(1) Versatility of the tone and output. (2) 1 push/pull V , 1T , 5way or super 5way (3) neck series, bridge series and middle series options on the 5way switch
.........The rest is totally up to your creation
Thanks!
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Post by asmith on Nov 18, 2011 4:59:54 GMT -5
Welcome to the NutHouse, T-Dub. From I have learn recently, parallel will give less output and series produce 100% of it. Not quite, but I can see where you're coming from. Imagine a circuit like Wall Street - lots of men with pocketfuls of money walking round in circles. In parallel, a man walks through a pickup and collects a hundred dollars. When he reaches the amp - the bank / under his mattress - he deposits it in. Two different men walk through the two different pickups in parallel, so every man arriving at the amp deposits out a hundred dollars. With pickups in series, a man will walk through one pickup, and collect a hundred. Then he walks through another pickup and collects another hundred. When he gets to the amp he's got two hundred dollars. So it's true that "parallel gives you less output," but it's not true that "series gives you 100%." Series gives you more "oomph," sure. But Parallel has a different "tone" to series that can be very pleasant. No, it'll sound like a humbucker split with something else. Wire it up direct to the output and give it a go, you might like it. You should stop hanging around those Congressman friends of yours. Even if it is very hard - as long as it's not impossible, there's a way. This is going to turn into a really interesting thread. Looking forward to reading and contributing towards it.
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Post by newey on Nov 18, 2011 6:33:19 GMT -5
OK, so you want to keep the middle pickup on the 5-way switch, and you want to not split that one.
I'll have a look over the weekend at doing the coil split switch for N and B, as you originally asked, but we still need to clarify exactly what you want that to do.
Generally, splitting coils works better on higher-output humbuckers. If the individual coils of a HB are lower output, the volume drop-off when switching to just one of the 2 is too much of a drop.
While I haven't really looked at this yet, I foresee a problem trying to have one P/P pot switch both N and B to single-coil operation, since those two pickups are also being wired for series/parallel on the 5-way switch in this scheme.
If you truly want to use the P/P pot to split to a SC mode, you may be forced to pick doing so on either the neck or the bridge, but not on both. But, again, let's take a closer look at this.
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Post by asmith on Nov 18, 2011 7:16:30 GMT -5
While I haven't really looked at this yet, I foresee a problem trying to have one P/P pot switch both N and B to single-coil operation, since those two pickups are also being wired for series/parallel on the 5-way switch in this scheme. Just to save some abortive work: The "White" wires of each pickup are either connected to the Output, or their respective "Black" wires for a series connection. If we take our DPDT, we can wire the "Whites" to the common lugs, the separate "Outputs" to Lugs #1 and "Ground" to both Lugs #2. Then in both series and parallel mode both coils can be simultaneously shorted to ground with one switch. Quick diagram, P/P pot in the red box: So it's possible if you need it.
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tw0409
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Post by tw0409 on Nov 18, 2011 7:35:38 GMT -5
asimth,
HAHAHA ;D man... your analogy of series and parallel is so funny! Thanks for clearing this concept.
At this point, I really don't know what to expect from these SC-sized humbuckers in terms of tone because I have never owned one before... So if splitting the Cruiser gives "viable" sound, I will certainly do it.
Those congressman friends of mine are not NUTZ enough to deal with my situation I guess? I really feel like anything is possible here!
Thanks man
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tw0409
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Post by tw0409 on Nov 18, 2011 8:26:30 GMT -5
Newey,
Yes. I know blending two coils from 2 different pickups will sound better. However, I'm sure you know these are three very distinctive pickups, output and tone wise. I wanted to have 3 positions for each un-splitted N or M or B , because I thought it would be nice if each can sing by itself. I hope I have explained myself. I am not against mixing them up.
Ok, so the series/parallel wiring on the 5way conflicts with the switch? In this case, we could just ditch that diagram...
Let me clarify more on what I really want to achieve here. I want to have a continuum array of tone. Hopefully, this combo of pickups can handle some light and sweet genre to heavy and hardcore tone. Someone from the other forum have warned me I believe, pups are just tools to get guitarist closer to the "tone". The rest depends on the fingers! So, about volume jump when switching... I care less about that as long as the setup is versatile enough for wild range of music style.
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tw0409
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Post by tw0409 on Nov 18, 2011 8:46:28 GMT -5
So when the pot is pushed... Neck Series Neck parallel Middle series Bridge Parallel Bridge Series Sorry... Can you please clarify what are the combo when pot is pulled?
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Post by newey on Nov 18, 2011 11:03:57 GMT -5
asmith has solved the problem of the coil splits, if that's what you want to do.
With the pot pushed in, you'll get exactly what the DiMarzio diagram has.
With the pot pulled out, you'll have:
1) Neck coil split 2) Neck coil split 3) middle pickup (series HB) 4) bridge coil split 5) bridge coil split
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tw0409
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Post by tw0409 on Nov 18, 2011 14:38:33 GMT -5
asmith has solved the problem of the coil splits, if that's what you want to do. With the pot pushed in, you'll get exactly what the DiMarzio diagram has. With the pot pulled out, you'll have: 1) Neck coil split 2) Neck coil split 3) middle pickup (series HB) 4) bridge coil split 5) bridge coil split However, we still have not confirmed for sure that the switch you have- the so-called "ultra" switch- is in fact identical to the switch shown in the Dimarzio diagram. If it isn't the same, we'll need to do some more work here before you start wiring things up. Oh... I thought when the pot is pulled I can get 1 B coil + 1 N coil in the same position? i would never want to split humbucker into single without hum-canceling. That just defeats the purpose of having a mini-humbucker. I think the switch is "EP1112" like this one..... www.soundexchange2.com/dimarzioep11125waymulti-poleswitch.aspxSo this dimarzio switch is very different from the "super" ones in Fender? I have heard of other companies with similar kind of switch...(maybe function very differently).....Is there one that stands out more, allowing more wiring possibilities? Thanks
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tw0409
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Post by tw0409 on Nov 20, 2011 6:30:41 GMT -5
So the pickups showed up to my door today!!! Absolutely stoked to see these on my guitar! I still need some help though...anyone please educate me!
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Post by newey on Nov 20, 2011 8:56:26 GMT -5
I assume that the DiMarzio switch is the same as the Fender Superswitch™ it looks the same, anyway. It's a 4-pole 5 throw (4P5T) switch. However, we seem to be moving backwards here. tw0409 now says: Back in my very first reply, I noted: and asmith then did a diagram for the coil splits, without having an answer to that. A push/pull pot is a pot with a double pole, double throw (DPDT) switch attached to it. With 2 poles, it allows us to switch two separate circuits simultaneously. But only two. To split the coils of 2 pickups, we use one pole for one pickup and the other for the second pickup. Since the switching scheme under consideration here only has one pickup operating at a time, in order to have the P/P switch give us two pickups at once, we have to turn on one of the two pickups in question, because the 5-way only gives us one pickup "on" at a time. So, to split two pickups to SC, and to turn one of those pickups "on" would require at least 3 poles on the switch, as we'd be switching three things at once. But we don't have a third pole, we used the two we had to do the coil splits. To answer your nect question, no, there is no such thing as a three pole P/P pot. They are all DPDT. There are toggles switches that have 4 poles and which could be used to do this, but you said you didn't want any added switches beyond a single P/P pot (and the 5-way). So, if you truly desire to have the neck pickup split to single coil (call that "NSC") in parallel with the bridge single coil (BSC), you have to make some choices. 1) You can chose to add more or different switching, as above, OR2) You can chose to put the coil splits at position #3 on the 5-way (I just did a diagram to do that for jazseven over at the other thread), and then use the P/P to turn the middle pickup on/off, which is what I suggested you might want to do back at the beginning here, OR3) You can decide to split only one of the two pickups, either neck or bridge, and then to turn that pickup "on". This could give you NSC (or BSC, your choice) together with whatever is selected on the 5-way switch, OR
4) You can use the tone control to turn the neck pickup "on", as is done in ChrisK's "Free 'Neck On' switch" . The tone control could also be used in a similar fashion to split a coil, OR5) You can scrap your desired set-up for the 5-way switch and move to a completely different scheme, one which allows for one or more multi-pickup combos. The choice is yours, but you do have to make a choice. Like life itself, in guitar wiring, you often "just can't have it all", as Bob Seger would say. And, I agree, with two HBs split to single coils, you want the two coils selected to be hum-cancelling. That can be accomplished, but first you have to decide what you want to do, as above.
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tw0409
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Post by tw0409 on Nov 20, 2011 10:27:03 GMT -5
I kind of reassess a bit... I want a wiring system that can switch from low output (5th position/neck) to high output (1st position/bridge). So then I come up with this... I have no idea it will be doable or not. Please tell me if I am talking non-sense.
1 neck series 2 middle series 3 1 middle coil + 1 neck coil parallel 4 1 bridge coil + 1 neck coil (parallel or series both are Okay.) 5 bridge series
So when the pot is pulled gives bridge full + neck full
Again, I have no idea if this is nonsense or possible. This is why I am here... If I just made myself look like a complete idiot... Can you share some general rules of wiring...like if "A" is used, "B" cannot exist.
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Post by newey on Nov 20, 2011 14:46:07 GMT -5
If we limit position 4 to parallel (NSC + BSC), this should be doable with the 5-way Superswitch.
Whether the P/P can then do N HB + B HB is questionable- we'd need to take a close look at that.
We could certainly arrange for N + B when the 5-way is set to bridge (in other words, you could have N HB + B HB when the 5-way is at position 5) by making the P/P into a "neck on" switch. This would then give other combos with the neck with the 5-way set to other positions. With the switch pulled, and assuming the 5-way is wired as you have suggested above, you'd have:
1) Neck series 2) Middles series + Neck series 3) (1 middle coil + 1 neck coil) + neck series 4) (1 bridge coil + 1 neck coil) + neck series 5) bridge series + neck series
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Post by cynical1 on Nov 20, 2011 14:56:56 GMT -5
You could use the push/pull as a neck on switch and leave the bridge in series position as is. This would give you the neck in series anytime it's pulled, but it would also give you the bridge in series by itself which you don't have right now.
Just thinking...
Happy Trails
Cynical One
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tw0409
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Post by tw0409 on Nov 20, 2011 15:41:28 GMT -5
Ahh I did not think of the "neck on" idea. It's actually a good one! However, I have another question. when pot is pot is pulled, on position 3 and 4, seems like they are both 3-coil combos... Wouldn't this produce hum? Other than that... This is a really great setup!!!
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Post by cynical1 on Nov 20, 2011 17:06:25 GMT -5
In positions 3 and 4, as it is currently drawn, when you activate the neck on switch, you will have hum.
But if you only want the push pull to work with the bridge in series it's just a matter of physically employing it when the bridge position is selected. If you forget it's a quick push to stop it.
Something not yet broached, but important to consider here is that the stacked or rail single coil size humbuckers will have higher output from generally one coil only. The "slug" coil may not give you the sound you're looking for.
And if you have to select the highest output coil from the lil' 59 and the Cruiser, you may not be canceling any hum at all.
By this I mean that, for sake of illustration, let's say the North coil is the high output coil for both pickups. When selected together they will not cancel any hum at all.
This will require a bit of experimentation on your part to find the right coils to combine to make them hum canceling, if that's one of your design criteria.
From my experimenting with these types of pickups I found that being able to switch them from series to parallel was a much more usable tone, and they're silent.
Not suggesting you redraw the whole thing...just pointing out some things that have yet to be addressed.
Happy Trails
Cynical One
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tw0409
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Post by tw0409 on Nov 20, 2011 19:05:20 GMT -5
Thanks Cynical One and Newey,
How about this.
1) neck series 2) neck parallel 3) middle series 4) bridge series 5) 1 N coil + 1 B coil
.... so then push/pull will enable N full +B full right? Will this avoid the humming positions?
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Post by newey on Nov 20, 2011 19:15:48 GMT -5
As to your last, tw, in general that could work. I would state it differently Position 5 is full Neck HB + full Bridge HB, then pulling the P/P slits each one to a SC.
But you can wire it such that with the knob in, it's SCs and knob out is full HBs, it just depends on which way you wire the P/P switch.
As cynical1 pointed out, we don't know whether hum-cancelling will work until we know which coils you want to split. If it's not a choice, you might have a problem.
But the JB Jr is at the bridge, right? If so, that's not a stacked coil HB, it's a side-by-side, so we should be able to choose either coil from the JB Jr. If so, no problem with selecting the correct coil.
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Post by cynical1 on Nov 20, 2011 20:11:47 GMT -5
How about this. 1) neck series 2) neck parallel 3) middle series 4) bridge series 5) 1 N coil + 1 B coil ... so then push/pull will enable N full +B full right? Will this avoid the humming positions? Provided you guess right on which coils hum cancel each other, and which one of the two you want to be more dominant. Between the neck and bridge pickup you'll need a North and South coil. One of these coils will have a weaker signal then the other, so will be dominated by the higher output coil of the other. It will be hum canceling, and it may be a mute point, but I believe the JB Jr is a hotter pickup then the lil' 59. That being said taking the high output coil of the lil' 59 and combining it with the slug coil of the JB Jr will probably give you a more unique tone. Taking the JB Jr as dominant will probably just give you another bridge pickup tone. Now, as to which is which on either pickup, I have no idea. You might want to fire out an e-mail the DiMarzio and Seymour Duncan and get their take on which coil does what. One last question. Have you heard these pickups split before? You are giving up a lot of flexibility in your 5 way switch and pigeon holing your options quite a bit to accomplish this, that's why I ask. Happy Trails Cynical One
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tw0409
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Post by tw0409 on Nov 20, 2011 23:21:29 GMT -5
Just e mail SD for the south and north coil outputs.
Here, what do you mean by slug coil?
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I have not heard of them split before...but with JbJr and lil 59, I think it's worth a try.
hummm...are there other interesting combos that worth a shot? Do you recommend splitting the cruiser? It is like 5.75K. Will the output be too weak when I split it.
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Post by newey on Nov 20, 2011 23:55:38 GMT -5
Probably.
Cyn's thinking of a regular HB, with one coil having adjustment screws and the other with just metal "slugs" for the pole pieces. Usually, the two coils are so designated, screw coil and slug coil.
But on the JB JR and Lil' 59, both coils are identical- both have screws, as I recall. So, you'll have to designate the coils as N or S.
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tw0409
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Post by tw0409 on Nov 21, 2011 21:35:31 GMT -5
So SD has replied with the following...
This means it is either the inner coils or the outter coils?
Also, Cynical One...you said...
I think I am close to what I am looking for. However everytime I try to figure more splitting or series/parallel combo... I always ended up getting these. I think the middle pickup is the cause. I could imagine the output being too weak when it splits (maybe hard to match up with others?). With my setup(1 push/pull), it's hard to do more fancy work like switching on and off on multiple pups.
I think I am going to stick with this on the 5way when pushed, because it will avoid hum when pot is pulled (at position w/ 3 coils engaged)
1) neck series 2) neck parallel 3) middle series 4) bridge series 5) 1 N coil + 1 B coil
I guess I still have to ask... Are there anymore combos that should be considered?
Thanks!
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Post by cynical1 on Nov 21, 2011 22:40:20 GMT -5
I guess I still have to ask... Are there anymore combos that should be considered? Well, as long as you asked, let me just toss out what I've been thinking all along... You have invested a few more coins into these pickups then you would have for standard single coils. These are all upper end of the market pickups. I assume you chose these because they are noiseless. I prefer these to standard single coils for that very reason. [Opinion] While I've never heard these particular pickups split before I have tried it with a YJM, which is stacked, and a Kent Armstrong Cool Rails, which is like your Cruiser. The YJM was hotter on the top coil, but lame as Hell on the bottom coil. The Kent Armstrong just vanished when split. The best sounding combination was the hot YJM and the half-hearted coil from the Cool Rails. This sounded almost as good as the YJM alone, but not quite. The experiment lasted as long as it took me to re-wire them back. Just as in your case, the JBJR is likely to dominate the sound...and since you already have a JBJR tone anyways...why add another... It strikes me that, when even most humbuckers don't split all that well, the idea of splitting such a small coil seems like a great deal of effort to defeat the only advantage they have...and that is to be noiseless... Both Seymour Duncan and DiMarzio spent a great deal of time and effort to mimic true single coils in their respective lines in the single coil footprint. These manufacturers have gone to great lengths to find the right coils to match. Mismatching them may not give you any improvement, and may even sound...disappointing... What I did discover was that switching them to local series or parallel was a much more interesting and noiseless option. Stay with me a little longer on this one... If you were to wire the 5-way as you would in traditional fashion, N, N/M, M, M/B, B, use the push pulls to set series or parallel on any two of the three pickups, then toss in one simple SPDT either neck on, or bridge on switch, you increase your available combinations significantly, and the guitar remains noiseless in every position. This adds N/B and N/M/B...and you can set series or parallel combination inside of these combinationsand the standard selections. You can also get froggy and toss in a DPDT switch and you have series and parallel on all three pickups in any combination. [/Opinion] I'm just sayin'...since you asked... Happy Trails Cynical One
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Post by newey on Nov 21, 2011 23:11:40 GMT -5
And, I need to second pretty much everything Cyn1 said there . . .
I have a GFS "cool rails" in my Esquire-ish guitar. It was originally wired for a coil split, but I rather quickly rewired it to "both coils in parallel", instead of the SC split.
The SC-sized humbuckers, as Cyn1 noted, are designed to mimic a regular single coil, but aLso to do it noiselessly. This means a relatively weak coil when split to a SC mode.
If you want to split HBs, get some overwound PAFs. Otherwise, with the single-coil sized HBs, the series/parallel option is more useful, IMHO.
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tw0409
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Post by tw0409 on Nov 22, 2011 1:07:20 GMT -5
Cynical One,
Ahh I think I am a very easily-convinced person. Also, I am not as experienced as the Nutz here... (One thing though, you mentioned about JBJr dominating the voice when combined. In the "B+M" position, wouldn't the Cruiser gets "dominated" by JBJr?)
So as you said, I can use one p/p to activate series/parallel of any two pups. Would it be a good idea to do this on bridge and neck?
Second, I guess the "bridge on" idea does not complicate the setup too much... but can it be a push/pull pot as well. I don't want to have addition switch except 1V1T.
Thanks
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Post by cynical1 on Nov 22, 2011 8:59:17 GMT -5
Well, my intention was not to push you one way or the other, merely to point out potential options and increased functionality.
And if it were me, with the setup you have, I'd do the series/parallel switches on the bridge and the neck, too.
The Cruiser may or may not get dominated, but keeping it in series will allow it's highest output. And if the JBJR walks all over it, then put the JBJR in parallel and it'll average down. You will experience an overall loss of loudness, but that's why they made volume controls...
This might be a bit more problematic. If you use the diagrammed volume and tone controls with push/pulls for the series\parallel options on the neck and bridge you've used up your available pots to piggy back off of.
A SPST switch is very small, and can be place almost anywhere. For the benefits it allows the extra hole is a really a non-issue.
The trick to drilling through a finished guitar is a new sharp drill, masking tape over the intended drill site, drill a small pilot hole, then hit your barrel diameter hole at high speed and you're done.
Pull the tape, put the washer on the barrel, tighten the mounting nut, wire it up and play...and wonder what the big deal was to begin with...
Happy Trails
Cynical One
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Post by tw0409 on Nov 22, 2011 10:57:33 GMT -5
Cynical, I agree every word from you, but I just cannot get over the extra switch. I figure if I lose the switch I will have to lose the B+N combo and B+M+N combo. I guess I will never use the B+M+N combo for its extremely high output. So this left me the loss of B+N only. You said I can bust the bridge in parallel when paring with middle. I like it....but not as much as the B+N combo. So I think I am going to stick with two push/pulls....1V1T. Now... here is the combos I have in mind (man....here we go again... ) 1) neck 2) neck+middle series 3) middle series 4) bridge 5) bridge+neck Applied with the 2 p/p. neck and bridge can either be series or parallel. Do you think wire them parallel on the 5 way switch will be better or the other way? There must be one (series or parallel) that gets used more than another? right? I would like to put the one with less chance of use on the "pull". Thanks
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Post by cynical1 on Nov 22, 2011 12:48:17 GMT -5
Do you think wire them parallel on the 5 way switch will be better or the other way? If we're talking about the series\parallel option, it's much more versatile from the push\pull versus a hard wiring on the 5-way, IMHO. This is really going to depend on your style and personal preference. If you like to drive your amp, or prefer a hotter output, then series will be your main squeeze. If you're looking for a kinder, gentler tone, then parallel would be your primary position. I did mine with the middle and bridge set for series\parallel, and find I use each equally, but your mileage may vary. I also used DPDT and SPST switches with little regard for the holes I had to make, so take that for what it's worth. Series will be a higher output, where parallel is a lower output type of tone with what I would describe as cleaner highs...but again, tone perception is subjective. If it were me, though, I would wire both switches to function the same way. In the heat of battle consistency of operation is desirable. Plus, you may sell this guitar one day and it'll make the learning curve easier on the next owner. And even David Gilmour drilled a hole on the Black Strat so a neck on switch. give it a bit more thought before you reject the option out of hand. with the series\parallel option running all 3 pickups might not be as harsh as you suspect. I run all three on my guitar, and by playing with the s\p switches have found some very useable tones. I found that bridge parallel with middle series to be quite nice. So, what's your preference? Happy Trails Cynical One
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