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Post by BlackAngusYoung on Dec 2, 2011 11:02:25 GMT -5
Hey All, I just put an H-S-H strat together with Dragonfire Power Rails humbuckers in the neck and bridge and a Dragonfire Hot Rails single-sized humbucker in the middle. The Power Rails sound very weak and thin. The clean tone isn't horrible but no amount of gain can make it sound like something I'd expect. They're designed mainly for hard rock and metal, but I can't see that happening. I think the heaviest tone they could possibly deliver might sound something like T-Bone Walker without the bottom 3 strings. The Hot Rails sounds rich, full and great in comparison. It really overpowers the Power Rails when switched to or added to the others. I hoped the problem was somewhere in my wiring, so I tried connecting the bridge pickup directly to the output jack. It's maybe a bit more "open" or whatever being without the Tone and Volume pots but basically the same thing. My other strat copy has Original Stratocaster pickups which are advertised as "low-output" 5.6k and sounds twice as powerful and much fuller than this "hot" 15.8k humbucker. So, that's my sad story and here are my questions about it: 1) WHY? Why???  (...Why?) 2) Might these pickups come alive if I transplanted them to my Les Paul? I'm no supernaturalist, but could it possibly be the guitar? Thanks for any insight. |
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Post by reTrEaD on Dec 2, 2011 11:14:32 GMT -5
maybe you have the two coils of the power rails out of phase with each other?
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Post by BlackAngusYoung on Dec 2, 2011 12:06:01 GMT -5
maybe you have the two coils of the power rails out of phase with each other? Yeah... maybe I do. From descriptions I've read, this is maybe the sound I'd expect if that's what I was going for. I think and hope you're onto something. (And fast.) Thanks! These are 4-wire pickups, so I guess it isn't too hard to make such a mistake. I mentioned that I connected the pickup signal directly to the output jack, but forgot that I had already wired a push/push pot to split it. Maybe I wired that wrong or maybe the manufacturer (they are possibly the cheapest worthwhile pickups around) wired or labelled something wrong. I guess it shouldn't be too hard to figure out how to figure that out. Thanks for the suggestion! |
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Post by BlackAngusYoung on Dec 2, 2011 13:22:33 GMT -5
I am looking forward to checking out the build and wiring of the pickup after work. I've just been reading about humbuckers being wired out-of-phase. The first thing that's making me start doubting that that's the problem is that I've read that if it were wired out-of-phase it would not be hum-cancelling, while mine are thin and nasally but not humming at all.
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Post by newey on Dec 2, 2011 13:45:08 GMT -5
BAY-
Welcome Back! It's been a while.
reTread has hit on the most likely explanation. It's certainly easy enough to check, just switch the wires for one of the two coils on one of the HBs and see if you get a difference.
I'd try it anyway, since you don't have a baseline for the amount of hum to expect from these pickups to start with. Maybe they're just darned quiet to begin with. . .
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Post by reTrEaD on Dec 2, 2011 13:48:53 GMT -5
How much hum you get is highly dependent on the environment. If you don't have a lot of ac magnetic fields, the hum won't be so noticeable. Your strat with standard single coils would be a good benchmark. Select ONE single coil pickup. (not a pair of pickups, like position 2 or 4) However much hum you get with that, should be similar to the amount of hum you get with a HB that has it's coils out of phase with each other. If the coils are not out of phase with each other, the only other reasons I can think of for weak output is the pickups being WAY to far away from the strings or that someone took the magnets off. But I think you would noticed either of those.  |
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Post by thetragichero on Dec 2, 2011 14:35:09 GMT -5
i wasn't impressed with their pickups, found that the gfs sounded quite a bit better (mine sounded thin, as well)
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Post by BlackAngusYoung on Dec 2, 2011 15:04:16 GMT -5
BAY- Welcome Back! It's been a while. Thanks. Yeah, I guess I haven't been around much for a little while. Since I always mess something up, I come around whenever I go through a guitar-modding phase. Lately, I guess I've been.... out-of-phase.  (sorry) Your strat with standard single coils would be a good benchmark. Select ONE single coil pickup. (not a pair of pickups, like position 2 or 4) However much hum you get with that, should be similar to the amount of hum you get with a HB that has it's coils out of phase with each other. The strat with oldschool singles does have pretty much the same (very little) amount of hum in the same room. So that hopefully makes sense, then. What is extremely noisy with bad hum is the Hot Rails middle pickup when I split the coils. I didn't really expect that, either. Though maybe when I get the Power Rails wired correctly they will also be noisy when split. Now it seems they aren't but maybe the splitting isn't happening correctly. If the coils are not out of phase with each other, the only other reasons I can think of for weak output is the pickups being WAY to far away from the strings or that someone took the magnets off. But I think you would noticed either of those. Haha I'd like to agree that I'd notice either of those, but I'm not as convinced as you are. No, the pickups aren't too far from the strings. They're probably the closest anyone would advise. Actually, the middle pickup could be considered too far away from the strings at the moment and still way overpowers the others. There's definitely some good magnetism goin' on. That's the only thing impressive about them so far. I think I'll draw up my wiring scheme with crayon and use the Power Rails to stick that to my fridge. |
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Post by thetragichero on Dec 2, 2011 16:12:34 GMT -5
There's definitely some good magnetism goin' on. That's the only thing impressive about them so far. I think I'll draw up my wiring scheme with crayon and use the Power Rails to stick that to my fridge. toook the magnets out of my dragonfire humbucker and they're currently attaching things to the fridge |
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Post by cynical1 on Dec 2, 2011 16:15:56 GMT -5
For what it's worth, when installing my Kent Armstrong Cool Rails Strat humbucker I shanked the wiring on that and put it out of phase. There was no drastic increase in noise...just a real nasal thin weak sounding tone anytime I put it together with the neck or the bridge.
I had the wrong color codes for Armstrong, but sorted it out after a little more Google time.
HTC1
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Post by BlackAngusYoung on Dec 2, 2011 23:47:04 GMT -5
There's definitely some good magnetism goin' on. That's the only thing impressive about them so far. I think I'll draw up my wiring scheme with crayon and use the Power Rails to stick that to my fridge. toook the magnets out of my dragonfire humbucker and they're currently attaching things to the fridge That's funny. I guess I was writing that while you wrote your first reply and I didn't see this one til later. Which is too bad since you offer such hope. I don't think I'll be doing the fridge magnet conversion too soon after all. Maybe once I get a bit more discerning. Right now, I'm happy because I disconnected the wiring from the coil-splitting push/push pot and the pickup is sounding way way better. Might not turn out to be a great pickup, but it definitely works within reason. I must have had some stray strands making a contact somewhere or something. Hopefully not faulty pots since they were $20 each on eBay, a couple months ago before I realized how broke I actually am. I will have to try wiring everything again and hope the coil splitting turns out better than last time. Kinda sucks that I can barely even try it now that it has a nice tone. I used a sharp knife to slice away the little ridge of skin under each fingernail a few days ago and it's rather painful today. Seemed like a good idea at the time. |
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Post by reTrEaD on Dec 3, 2011 0:02:42 GMT -5
Wounded player ... ouch! u can haz bandaids  |
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Post by BlackAngusYoung on Dec 3, 2011 1:35:06 GMT -5
That was hilarious. Thanks.
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Post by BlackAngusYoung on Dec 6, 2011 10:55:56 GMT -5
I poked around with the continuity tester and noticed something. I fixed that and everything seems to be fine. Everything including something I forgot to mention... that the tone control for the middle pickup (Hot Rails) worked fine but the tone controls for bridge and neck Power Rails would mute the volume when rolled down all the way.
All three pickups have 4 coated wires, plus the bare ground wire. One of the 4 wires is also called a ground wire, for connecting to one part of a switch for coil splitting (a push/push pot in mine.) On the Hot Rails, the braided ground wire and the coated one are visibly soldered together at the pickup, but not so on the Power Rails.
With them soldered to the correct points on the push/push pots, I checked the continuity between the coated ground wires and the rest of the guitar's grounding. The wire for the Hot Rails had continuity, but for the other two pickups these wires didn't. I soldered small pieces of wire between the lugs with the coated ground wires and the pot casings for each.
Now everything works fine. All the pickups sound good and powerful, with the Power Rails now slightly overpowering the Hot Rails. The tone pots are working perfectly for all pickups and so are the coil switches. Even the very loud hum I mentioned from the middle pickup when split, is gone. All the pickups sound loud and clear with little hum or noise in either mode, while sounding appropriately like humbuckers or single coils... while before they just sounded like two different varieties of wrong.
I guess I know what to look for next time. Thanks for all the replies/support.
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Post by Yew on Dec 6, 2011 19:46:15 GMT -5
with the Power Rails now slightly overpowering the Hot Rails. This is why there are screws on your pickups, to adjust the height to give you equal volume (or a louder neck, so you have a nice fat solo tone) |
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Post by BlackAngusYoung on Dec 7, 2011 14:26:29 GMT -5
with the Power Rails now slightly overpowering the Hot Rails. This is why there are screws on your pickups, to adjust the height to give you equal volume (or a louder neck, so you have a nice fat solo tone) Oh, yes, I know. Adjusting those height screws is one of the many things I do instead of practising guitar. It's just that when I had the bridge and neck wired wrong, there was very clearly something wrong beyond height adjustment. Now, adjustments aside, the Power Rails sound a little more powerful than the Hot Rails, as they're advertised to. |
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(...Why?)
(sorry)
