~Maxx
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Post by ~Maxx on Jan 15, 2012 3:01:28 GMT -5
Hi folks. I'm having a hell of a time finding info on this matter for some reason. Hopefully someone here can enlighten me a bit...
Setting up a 12 string hollow-body electric for a friend. The action on this thing is insanely high, even though I've removed the discs and have the bridge set all the way down on the rosewood base. It's a floating bridge, of coarse. And the saddles are adjustable for intonation, but only at six points (one saddle for each pair of strings). So between the high action, and the design of the bridge - I can't wrap my head around how it's even possible to get anywhere near the correct intonation on this thing. Obviously as soon as you fret a pair of the lower strings at the 12th, the pitch is thrown off by different amounts for each string due to the differences in tension and gauge.
Anyway... There must be a way to accomplish this that's obviously beyond my comprehension. If anyone has any wisdom they can offer I'd sure appreciate a point in the right direction. Thanks a bunch!
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Post by newey on Jan 15, 2012 8:04:39 GMT -5
un2maxx-
The bridge sounds similar to a vintage Tele 3-barrel bridge. Intonation on those is always going to be a compromise. If you google for "How to intonate a Tele" or some such, I'm sure you will find some good tips amidst much wailing and gnashing of teeth.
There is a small industry making compensated saddles for the three-barrel Teles, for those who demand better intonation than can be had with a stock set-up.
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~Maxx
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Post by ~Maxx on Jan 15, 2012 11:55:25 GMT -5
I knew I'd seen something similar to this before. Thanks Newey. I'll see what I can dig up with that info...
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Post by cynical1 on Jan 15, 2012 12:38:11 GMT -5
Newey pretty much tagged it. With both strings on the same saddle you're never going to get the pair to intonate correctly. 6 string intonation is always a trade off and 12 string intonation is even more of a trade off.
The assumption is that you're not going to move higher then the 7th fret as a 12 string is assumed to be a rhythm instrument...it's probably tolerable on the Cowboy Chords... A bridge design like that is cheaper and easier to make... To develop a 12 string tune-o-matic roller bridge would take some time and cost accordingly.
The intonation is probably acceptable up to about the 5th fret if you split the difference by a cent or two between the pair. It will be worse on the heavier strings.
There aren't a whole host of options for 12 adjustable intonation saddles bridges out there... The options open up quite a bit if you have a fixed bridge, but those are a mute point with an hollow body archtop. I assume this is some type of tune-o-matic apparatus, but correct me if I'm wrong
You didn't mention if the guitar has a set or bolt-on neck. If it has a bolt on neck I'd work up a shim to get the action lower. And I know it's a nightmare on wheels, but how's the cut on the nut?
Earvana does make a compensated nut that might help. It is some work to cut it and it's still a bit of a trade off in intonation, but it would help.
Sorry I have no magic bullet for you. This type of bridge setup has its limitations, which you are now intimately familiar with. The best you can hope to accomplish is to find out what you customer wants, where he plays and what he uses the 12 string for. Try and tweak the intonation for where he plays this guitar on the neck and target there.
And most of the trems I've seen on archtops are some sort of Bigsbyesque design. What is this one if it truly floats? I'd like to see a picture of this setup if you can.
Happy Trails
Cynical One
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Post by reTrEaD on Jan 15, 2012 13:14:35 GMT -5
Hi folks. I'm having a hell of a time finding info on this matter for some reason. Hopefully someone here can enlighten me a bit... Setting up a 12 string hollow-body electric for a friend. The action on this thing is insanely high, even though I've removed the discs and have the bridge set all the way down on the rosewood base. It's a floating bridge, of coarse. I'd be more concerned about the action than the intonation, at this point. When you say "the discs", can we assume you mean the threaded height adjusters? When you say "floating bridge" do you mean the rosewood base is free to move on the top of the guitar's body? Do you have a tailpiece that's connected to the end of the guitar? The only reason I can figure for "insanely high action" would be a severely bowed neck. Do you have an adjustable truss rod? If not, there isn't much that can be done about the action. But if you do, I'd suggest getting the neck nearly flat before trying to adjust the action. After that, move on to intonation adjustment. Check the neck relief by putting a capo at the first fret. Then hold one of the strings down at the last fret. Halfway between the first and last frets (about the 8th fret or so) measure the gap between the bottom of the string and the top of the fret. There should be a slight gap, anything more than the thickness of a credit card is excessive. How much relief does this guitar have? |
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Post by cynical1 on Jan 15, 2012 13:32:48 GMT -5
I assumed you had already checked the bow on the neck prior to setting intonation. Setting intonation is the LAST thing you do on a setup. I assumed you had already checked the truss rod and the nut...right?
While a bowed neck is the prime suspect in high action, it's not the only culprit. I've seen more semi-hollow body guitars that have a bolt on neck with a terrible neck heel\neck pocket relationship. The pitch of the neck is critical on an semi-hollow or archtop guitar due to the types of bridges they typically employ.
I just did a Samick for a co-worker that had a bolt on dead flat neck with the bridge laying on the body...but the action was ridiculously high. A quick shimming and the action is right there.
With a set neck it can get much more involved on a bad pitch set, but I'm guessing this is not a an issue here.
ReTread does throw some insights out there. And there are several schools of thought on setting action, so a little research on your part would not be a bad thing.
And I too am still curious about what kind of guitar this is and exactly what the bridge is on this guitar.
Happy Trails
Cynical One
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Post by sumgai on Jan 15, 2012 16:19:21 GMT -5
The assumption is that you're not going to move higher then the 7th fret as a 12 string is assumed to be a rhythm instrument. Ya know, we really gotta do sumpin' to fix this innerweb, cause poor ol' Leo Kottke didn't get that memo: The way I see, it he doesn't leave his fingers on any one fret long enough for anyone to notice if the course is in tune, or otherwise.... Other players' mileage may vary.  |
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~Maxx
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Post by ~Maxx on Jan 15, 2012 16:40:07 GMT -5
Thanks for the great info everyone! I didn't intend for this to become a big dramatic thread. But if you folks are willing - I'm certainly able... ;D Here's the rundown... This is an Aria Diamond Pro. Which, from what I gather, is a Japanese knockoff of sorts. I couldn't find this exact model online anywhere, but I'm guessing it's a mid 60's model or thereabouts. It belongs to a friend of mine, whose father used to play it. He's had it sitting around for years, and replaced the pickups at some point, but hasn't gotten around to having it set up. It seemed like an interesting project, so I volunteered to do the best I could with it. What I've done so far... - Disassembled the entire guitar except for the internal electronics (wasn't sure I'd be able to get them back in place properly
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- Wiped everything down with Mr. Clean Magic Eraser.
- Used a micro-abrasive polish on all the chrome pieces, knobs, and on the front of the headstock.
- Deoxit on the bridge, height adjustment bolts, and tuners.
- Dabbed machine oil on the intonation screws, bridge rollers, and tuning gears.
- Polished the frets with steel wool followed by micro-abrasive rubbing compound.
- Cleaned the fretboard and rosewood bridge piece with naphtha and treated with Stew Mac fretboard oil.
- Carnuba waxed body.
- Reassembled and restrung (replacing screws for tuners)
- Checked nut height (about .003" between string and 1st fret when fretting at 3rd fret). It's a tad low, but I figured I wouldn't mess with it unless it needed it.
- Checked neck bow. It was in excess of .015" So I adjusted the truss rod and got it down to about .008" before the thing didn't seem to want to turn anymore.
- Started messing with intonation and quickly gave up when I realized what a futile effort it was.
A couple of noteworthy points... The nut seems to be in pretty rough shape. But I haven't the wisdom, experience, or tools to start messing around with cutting a new one. Especially for a 12 string. Also - the neck was leveled at some point with a couple of small shims on the bridge side of the neck joint (just on the back side of the bottom neck bolts). My friend said that this was done by our local luthier, so I left them alone. And now for some pics...     I didn't quite get the angle I wanted on this last shot, but you should still be able to get an idea of how high the action is.  So it sounds to me like a full neck shim is in order? Which will likely mean shimming the nut as well. I have an 1/8" thick piece of veneer lying around (pine I think). Maybe that will get the job done? Looks like I'll need to put together another set of strings as well, huh? I guess I'll give this poor guy a call and tell him it'll be another week. Good thing he's not paying me... |
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~Maxx
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Post by ~Maxx on Jan 15, 2012 17:01:09 GMT -5
The assumption is that you're not going to move higher then the 7th fret as a 12 string is assumed to be a rhythm instrument. Ya know, we really gotta do sumpin' to fix this innerweb, cause poor ol' Leo Kottke didn't get that memo: The way I see, it he doesn't leave his fingers on any one fret long enough for anyone to notice if the course is in tune, or otherwise.... Other players' mileage may vary. Cool vid sumgai. Is it me? Or are there some latency issues here? Seems like the audio was a good bit ahead of the video.  Extreme's "Hole Hearted" is another one I keep thinking of (early 1990's radio hit - phenomenal guitarist!)... He doesn't seem to go above the 9th, but... I just love that main riff! |
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Post by ~Maxx on Jan 15, 2012 17:52:49 GMT -5
Just thinking about this a bit more... If I put in a 1/8" shim I'll likely have to adjust the bridge back up a tad from where it's at now. That won't be possible since I've removed the height adjusters. The height adjusters are 3/16", so if I add those back in the shim will only give me an extra 1/16" in neck height (provided the bridge height adjusters are all the way down). So should I make two of these 1/8" shims and give myself plenty of room to play with? 1/4" seems like a lot of extra height. I'd be afraid (perhaps needlessly) that the stability of the neck in the joint might become an issue if I raise it that much...
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Post by cynical1 on Jan 15, 2012 20:31:20 GMT -5
The assumption is that you're not going to move higher then the 7th fret as a 12 string is assumed to be a rhythm instrument. Ya know, we really gotta do sumpin' to fix this innerweb, cause poor ol' Leo Kottke didn't get that memo: I never said it was MY assumption. And the speed you get on and off the notes does help...ask any fretless bass player... Normally what I do is try and hit the low E at around .015-.020 at the first fret unfretted. The High E I put around .008, but the low E can be down to .010 and the high E can drop to .005 same way, but you better have a very light touch. Using your method it may be a bit high. A real simple way to check you action is to fret the first fret, hit it normally and see it if buzzes. If not, grab a feeler gauge and check the dimension at the second fret with the first fret fretted. This is a real simplification, but it's a valid premise. For now, just because I hate cutting 12 string nuts, I can only assume everyone does, so let's assume the nut is fine. I don't think you're gonna need an 1/8" shim...that's pretty drastic. Veneer strips at about 1/40th of an inch with the iron on adhesive removed (acetone or nail polish remover works to get that crap off. Soak it for 5 minutes and it peels right off.) I used 4 on the Samick, but it was pretty bad...the neck pocket looked like someone had gone after it with a chisel in a foul mood... Remember, you're not trying to make up all the difference with the shim. That just buries the strings. And I'd try and get the adjusters back in there. Especially with a 1/8" shim... 1/16" in shim makes up for a lot of gap in the action. It's a process and a few trip on and off with the neck are not unusual. It looks like you've done everything else to this point, so I'd say a shim is probably your best bet to get the action down. Now, setting the intonation with that bridge is going to be a compromise. Just tell him to play quick like Leo... Happy Trails Cynical One |
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Post by ~Maxx on Jan 15, 2012 22:08:00 GMT -5
Normally what I do is try and hit the low E at around .015-.020 at the first fret unfretted. The High E I put around .008, but the low E can be down to .010 and the high E can drop to .005 same way, but you better have a very light touch. Using your method it may be a bit high. A real simple way to check you action is to fret the first fret, hit it normally and see it if buzzes. If not, grab a feeler gauge and check the dimension at the second fret with the first fret fretted. This is a real simplification, but it's a valid premise. By your method the nut is about .023 at the low E, and about .01 at the hi E. Sounds good to me. Not shimming the nut also sounds really good to me! I checked the neck relief in a manner similar to what retread suggested. I just used an 18" straight edge instead of the capo method. At any rate - I don't think the bow is extreme in any way. I don't think you're gonna need an 1/8" shim...that's pretty drastic... Remember, you're not trying to make up all the difference with the shim. That just buries the strings. And I'd try and get the adjusters back in there. Especially with a 1/8" shim... 1/16" in shim makes up for a lot of gap in the action. Yeah... I realized later that we're not just talking about upward distance here, but the angle of the strings created at the nut and bridge relative to the neck height (or something like that  ). At any rate - I'll run by the hobby store this week and see if I can find something in a 1/32" thickness or so. Now, setting the intonation with that bridge is going to be a compromise. Just tell him to play quick like Leo... We'll see how things go... Thanks a million C1 (and everyone else)! |
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Post by ~Maxx on Jan 15, 2012 22:30:16 GMT -5
Earvana does make a compensated nut that might help. It is some work to cut it and it's still a bit of a trade off in intonation, but it would help. I was just browsing their website. Didn't see anything for a 12 string though. Too bad... |
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Post by cynical1 on Jan 15, 2012 22:35:58 GMT -5
By your method the nut is about .023 at the low E, and about .01 at the hi E. That's not bad for a player with a heavy touch. It could go lower, but it's in the ballpark. At least it's not too low. I'd consider the nut acceptable at this point and move on...unless the guy is paying $50.00 and hour... And shimming a nut is a relatively rare occurrence. If the nut is too low it's just as much work to pull it and put a new one on. And a word of caution. 12 string guitars put a good deal more force on a neck then a 6 string. You may not have enough travel to keep it flat under tuning tension. Trying too hard to get it dead flat by tossing a washer or two under the nut on the truss rod could easily lead to serious damage. I think the shim is your best option at this point. You may even need to put the adjusters back in and raise it to get the right pitch on the string once you do shim it. Home Depot or Menards has a 1" wide roll of maple veneer for a few bucks. All you need to do is get the iron-on adhesive off (see note above) and that stuff is perfect for shimming a neck pocket. I bought a roll 3 years ago and haven't gotten half way through it yet. You're on the right path. By the way, you did a Helluva job polishing out that guitar. Your friend better make it worth your time. Happy Trails Cynical One |
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Post by 4real on Jan 17, 2012 6:52:11 GMT -5
Have not followed this too strongly, but did think you got the wrong idea on shims, they don't take much nor need to be 'fancy'...you are changing the angle back not lifting the whole neck and you are working over the entire length of a neck. A credit card, popsicle stick, etc...torn heavy sandpaper folded, all work... On the bridge...if you really want to get things 'right' perhaps consider changing the bridge for something better. You could perhaps adapt something like this ricenbacker 12 string replacement with individual saddles and there are a few around...  With a saddle like this, you can adjust the intonation for each string, likely an improvement over the plastic saddles of the original and give you very good intonation all over the neck. Contrary to a few comments, I'd suspect teh intonation to be worse on the lower strings. Nice looking guitar and worth fixing. Generally I find that a 12 string neck does tend to bend so shimming might well not be enough, there is a hell of a lot of pressure on any neck and over time....the inevitable happens. It might be an idea that why you find the right place for the bridge that you carefully mark it's position and then use a mild, finish friendly, thin double sided tape under it so it will not move, especially during string changes or enthusiastic strumming. When considering a bridge adaptation, you may find that the new bridge is lower or higher and so you might want to consider this if the shim and such needs to take this into account if choosign this kind of thing. I tend to think that it is worth it (if the neck is reasonably straight and true) to get the intonation right and a more sophisticated bridge is likely the go. Be sure of the string spread and such elements that you get something that will work...do some research as to what might be suitable...stew-mac etc...I know there are a few out there TOM and roller types for instance. You could even make a replacement base plate for such things I'm sure and keep the original as a 'spare' for authenticity if that is important. For this type of guitar, you are not 'fixing' to the guitar so there is no permanent modification to the guitar itself. On my guitar I made my own bridge though this set design might be a little much on a 12 string to get right...  |
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Post by gitpiddler on Jan 20, 2012 22:09:26 GMT -5
The "Indy #2" acoustic got a wider bridge saddle that's comp'ed for each string. Intonation is better, but it's still too high to accurately judge yet. Sorry no pics.
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Post by ~Maxx on Jan 23, 2012 2:00:54 GMT -5
Finished this project up over the weekend. I wound up adding two 1/16" shims to the (roughly) 3/32" shim that was already there. This allowed me to reinstall the height adjusters, and brought the action down to a remotely workable height. I didn't measure the final result when I was done, but it was definitely acceptable for an acoustic-type instrument. I set the intonation as best I could from the 5th fret. Obviously the lower strings were still quite a ways off, but it was certainly within the realm of playable when I finally finished. Took it back to my buddy's place Saturday night along with my Strat, and spent the evening swapping guitars and jamming back and forth. After a few beers we didn't even mind the cringe-worthy notes above the 7th fret. I advised him that if he ever had a bit of $$ to put into it he should have that neck joint looked at by a "real" Luthier ( :  . Maybe get a solid block of wood that tapers down to the front of the joint so the neck has something to resonate against. I'm sure we lost some tone there with that shim so high. A new bridge with 12 separate saddles, and a nice new bone nut would really round that thing out in my opinion. Anyway... I appreciate all the comments and conjectures. It was an interesting and educational project. And now I'm ready to get back to work on my nice, normal Strats... |
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Post by cynical1 on Jan 23, 2012 11:07:21 GMT -5
Glad the shims worked out. And a 3/32" shim certainly explains the high action before the shim.
And yeah, the intonation on that type of bridge is always going to be a problem somewhere on the neck...well, actually over most of the neck for that matter.
Haunting eBay may provide your friend with a chance to grab a better bridge and not break the bank. Just advise him to be patient.
If anything your intonation improved with the shim as the strings aren't pulled sharp by having to travel so far to be fretted. A solid shim is technically better them sandwiched shims, but the difference is negligible.
Once he finds a 12 saddle bridge, and is still flush, an Earvana nut will help out with the intonation...but they're not cheap for a 12 string and there is a trick to installing them.
And rather then a bone nut, let me suggest a Tusq nut. Bone can be inconsistent longitudinally. It is organic, so this should not come as a surprise. Tusq nuts, while synthetic are engineered to be consistent. They cut easily and come in just about every shape you'd ever need. They run anywhere between $9.00-$12.00 depending on where you source them from. The oil impregnated nuts can run higher.
Good job. And next time you guys run out for beer remind your friend just how much money you saved him on this guitar...
Happy Trails
Cynical One
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~Maxx
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Post by ~Maxx on Jan 25, 2012 22:40:32 GMT -5
And rather then a bone nut, let me suggest a Tusq nut. Bone can be inconsistent longitudinally. It is organic, so this should not come as a surprise. Tusq nuts, while synthetic are engineered to be consistent. They cut easily and come in just about every shape you'd ever need. They run anywhere between $9.00-$12.00 depending on where you source them from. The oil impregnated nuts can run higher. Great info Cyn. Thanks! I played a Strat once that had a bone nut, and the sound just sort of stuck with me over the years. When I get around to replacing the neck on my American Deluxe I intended to get a bone nut, and try my hand at filing it myself. But I'll certainly take your recommendation with the Tusq. I see that AllParts has the Graphtech black Tusq pre-slotted nuts for $12.50. That seems reasonable (until you figure in $100 - $200 for the files I'll need to do it on my own : . Anyhow - I wouldn't have dreamed of trying to cut a nut for someone else when I'd never done one for myself. Maybe I'll get back to it in a few years when I've got some experience. Yeah... I was definitely doing him a favor. He works on commission, and business hasn't been good lately. So it was a good learning experience for me, and a nice little gift for him. I was glad to help. But yeah... Definitely his turn to buy the beer! |
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). At any rate - I'll run by the hobby store this week and see if I can find something in a 1/32" thickness or so.
. Maybe get a solid block of wood that tapers down to the front of the joint so the neck has something to resonate against. I'm sure we lost some tone there with that shim so high. A new bridge with 12 separate saddles, and a nice new bone nut would really round that thing out in my opinion.