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Post by sumgai on Mar 22, 2012 11:45:37 GMT -5
Pete, I take it that you're going into this blind, almost literally. If the people hiring you can't even give you a fair idea of what they want you to jump into, then you are doing this for the love and the challenge, certainly not the money! (That fella who wanted $320, that as so he could buy enough hooch to blur his reality, in order to face himself in the morning after.) I implore you, if you want this to be successful, then arrange at least a few interviews with prospective students before the actual class kicks off. Auditioning them would be ideal, but not always practical. Otherwise, you are forced, and I mean that literally, forced to reduce your prospective offering to a "lowest common denominator". But in point of fact, my idea of interviewing the students first isn't aimed at assessing their current skill level(s), it's more aimed at determing if they have set realistic goals for themselves, goals that you can further for them in that short amount of time. In fact, to instill creativity, you don't need a guitar - that's just a tool of expression, an outlet of one's creativity. You can do this just as well with finger painting, or singing soto voce (you might get a nice a capella thing going there....), or any number of other methods. Focus your cirriculum on the creativity angle, and let the guitar come in as merely a tool, and I think you're gonna be a hit with the crowd. ;D As for K.C., yes you hear his stuff a lot, but keep in mind two things: a) he hasn't yet arrived in Muzak (snicker); and b) the only people playing his material are those of his generation, the "Kurt was speaking for me" types. In general, all of that era's type of music can be labeled as 'Angst music", meaning that there was so little creativity, or skill of more than the rudimentary sort, but by screaming in a cave man fashion, with lyrics that had to be written so that the listeners could read so them later, all of that was an expression of fear of the future. Not even so much as whining about mommy and daddy wanting a bit of discipline, just fear that the future was gonna be yet more of the samo-samo. Says something about what kind of values they were being taught at home...... Not that I blame them, that's as valid a topic as any, but it was done knowing that it was the most rebellious way they could pull it off, guaranteed to piss off 99.99% of all adults (record company executives being the exception, but we all know just how much soul they have in what passes for their hearts....). Well, at least they helped to kill off Disco even quicker, so that's a positive for their side! ;D ;D OK, I've killed enough time, gotta go be productive! sumgai
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Post by reTrEaD on Mar 22, 2012 13:35:29 GMT -5
That's ok, I am not quite taking it as an insult, just not getting where that is coming from or what to do with it. That seems about right. It wasn't quite an insult. More an indictment about the use of that sort of question and the absurdity of where it leads. I intentionally extrapolated that to hyperbole. And why not? A question like that is contentious in its very nature. I'm not proposing 'short cuts' Denial is. The reality is that any program built around quick results is necessarily fraught with short cuts. Not that short cuts are all that bad as a temporary measure. One has to start somewhere. But without a plan to transition from short cuts to going the long way round, short cuts result in retarded progress. Is there a problem in asking what exactly are the fundamentals What do YOU think the fundamentals are? dictionary.reference.com/browse/fundamentalDo you notice the keyword "foundation" in the definition? Anything we use to build other things on is a fundamental. The more layers that are built upon it, the more "fundamental" the original thing is. When it comes to western music theory, understanding the "circle of fifths" would have to rate pretty high as being fundamental. In terms of left-hand technique, finger strength and agility are relatively fundamental. In the context of instrument familiarity, I suppose recognizing the interval relationships between strings and frets and being able to quickly identify notes by their position in the string / fret matrix would be quite fundamental. I just flashed back to a time when I was at a music store within earshot of a guitar instructor interviewing a potential student. The student had been receiving lessons for over two years from another guitarist. When the instructor asked the student to "play a C" the student asked "Which kind? Major? Minor? Seventh? Ninth?" The instructor said "Not the chord, just the note. I don't care which octave or where you play it on the fretboard. Just play a C." The student played: 0 1 0 2 3 0 ... and said "I'm not sure right off which one it is, but it's in there somewhere." I had to work so hard from bursting out in laughter that I almost wet myself. It turns out the kid was practically a human chord encyclopedia. He could play more chords in more positions on the fretboard than some guitarists will ever learn in their lifetime. But he knew them by name associated with shape and position, not really understanding what notes were employed, or where the individual notes were located on the fretboard. It turns out his previous instructor was a "rhythm guitarist". I'm not saying that he didn't learn anything useful. On the contrary. But in the overall scheme of things, he was surprisingly ignorant for a two year student. Me personally, I'm still trying to reconcile how you're gonna pull off laying that entire list of 'basic' skills on a group of people in only 8 weeks. "Laying it on them" wouldn't be all that difficult. Getting them to grasp it would, though. There are some exceptions, but most who attend "community center" sessions have the expectation that they will learn during the session. If you get the majority of them to spend as much time at home between sessions, studying and practicing, as they spent in the sessions at the center, you're way ahead of the game. I'm not dissing people who attend these centers. It's just the reality of what they expect. Because of that, teaching too much too fast accomplishes less. A rare few might keep pace and spend sufficient time at it away from the sessions, but most will just get what they can at the session and leave it at that. How much can be accomplished in 8 sessions? That's immediately limited by the amount of time the students will invest away from the sessions, and where they're starting from. Could be a great amount or could be not so much. Since you have to target the majority, I wouldn't expect much.
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Post by cynical1 on Mar 22, 2012 16:39:25 GMT -5
My, this has gotten interesting. I think it's time for a bit of perspective here, IMHO...
My experience with lessons began and ended in 1969. I was a young kid with a red Matador electric guitar and a burning urge to master the guitar and make my fortunes with it.
My guitar teacher at the time was a gigging musician at the local music store. He was good, but didn't make a point of burning your lesson showing you. He humored me by showing me little snippets of the Who, Jimi Hendrix and their ilk of the time, but he only did it if I mastered the lesson for the week.
He knew what I wanted to do, but he also reinforced what needed to be done to get there and stay there. If I mastered Twinkle Twinkle forwards and backwards, he'd show me the first few measures in Hey Joe. Fair trade.
Long story short, he got drafted and his stand in after the fact was the piano teacher...I lasted two weeks and never went back. But I never forgot his best lessons in that you ain't gonna improve without investing the time on the grunt work, when you stop wanting to improve and learn you stagnate. You train for the game, and the harder you train the better you can play the game. You stop training because you think you're there you'll get run over.
With 4Real's group, as yet to be identified, they're all going to come in with different expectations. Some will be happy with a few cowboy chords while others may want to be the next Segovia or Reinhardt.
I don't think a teachers job is to rigidly tell you how to do anything. Their job is to inspire and enable you. Nothing inspires like results the student appreciates, and their peers will acknowledge.
What 4Real detailed as a basic set of expectations is a pretty damn good deal for $13.00 and hour. And if 12 people show up, odds are only 2 will want to take it further then the original lessons.
And teaching is a lot like horse training. You make the right thing easy, the wrong thing difficult and odds are the horse\student will always choose the right thing. Figuring out how to communicate that is the tricky part. On the bright side, few guitar students will kick you if you if you didn't explain it well enough.
This is not the Joe Satriani Master Class. This is probably a group of people that always wanted to play the guitar, but had no idea where to start. I'd be willing to bet that at the end of the first class 4Real probably takes away more lessons then his students.
I applaud you for taking this class under your wing. Teaching any type of musical instrument takes more patience then I have. Rather then debate right or wrong, I think we should along more of what worked or didn't work for us to allow 4Real to formulate a working outline.
And keep posting the barre chords...I need all the insights I can get...
Happy Trails
Cynical One
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Post by 4real on Mar 22, 2012 16:47:27 GMT -5
Errr....right
Well, this is a needless digression that seems to be full of assumptions and presumptions and yes, getting the wrong end of the stick and seems to be passionately arguing for no particular reason...
Turning it into a one way pissing contest...this thread was not an argument about the 'best way' to learn or teach guitar, but a way in this situation to provide something that is worth while and create further interest so that they will continue with it.
The purpose of this thread was that a 'scenario' came to my attention a week back and after some short phone enquiry and bit of research put my mind to what could be offered and how one might go about it because there is a distinct lack of anything on offer.
I thought that I'd put it to a brains trust and suggest a few ideas and to see what others could offer as input, get constructive with it.
Note the thread is 'developing a guitar method' and at the start explained the unusual nature of the challenge...the task is to develop something suitable that addresses these aims, nothing that should be contentious or require vitriol. If there are concerns, let's find ways to correct the gaps that participants may display and give them some tools to move on.
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I hear what you concerns are now, but they were not clear and now that there are specifics I can address them, but I am sure there is more than this, so a list would have been more useful since the concerns are so passionate. The thing is to look for solutions, and motivations rather than assume what one will or wont expose them too.
For instance...lets now list the specifics mentioned from the recent input then...
Well ignore the first two words (that's the pissing contest that is not required and why women dont get involved because some can't help themselves it seems), none of what I have so far suggested is an alternative to playing the C chord by replacing it with a 2 finger Cmaj7 alternative. Most probably can play the C major chord more than likely.
The purpose of these exercises as I saw them was to allow almost anyone to be able to make smooth changes in the left hand and so we can concentrate on the right and play as a group and be inclusive and on the same page. Again an 'example'...
---0---0---0--0---------------------- ---0---1---1--0---------------------- ---0---0---0--0---------------------- ---2---2---3--3---------------------- ---3---0---x--x---------------------- ------------1--3------------------- ...C..Am...F..G...
Ok...so the immediate task with this is to see if people can finger these and move through them smoothly. I would then look to see if all the notes are ringing true and if there are any particular problems in the left hand for each participant.
I would demonstrate it in various ways, finger picking, strumming, two bars to a chord, damping, all manner of ways and perhaps sing a few songs to show how universal this sequence is.
Obviously, I thought, it would be shown along side the more conventional chords for this that they more than likely already know.
---0---0---1--1---------------------- ---1---1---1--0---------------------- ---0---2---2--0---------------------- ---2---2---3--0---------------------- ---3---0---3--2---------------------- ------------1--3------------------- ...C..Am...F..G...
The task would be to use whatever skills one has to find as many ways one can to play through this in the right hand. This is where the creativity comes in. If people know other ways of playing the sequence because they are more advanced, sure play that if this is too simple and you got the left hand down.
This is an exercise in participation, the right hand and feeling that they have played something that sounds cool...but it leads on to more...
We would also have a discussion about how this progression works. We would be looking at the common, to look at these things not as just a 'shape' which is how such things are commonly taught and learned, as in the anecdote. See how the notes of the C chord are made an Am chord by the change of the note G to A. The Am chord to an F chord by the change of the E notes to F's. The G7 from the change of the notes C and A to B and G. Notice how the notes of the G7 chord share only the G note of the C and home key. Notice the pull that this creates through tension that wants to resolve or release to the tonic C chord.
So, obviously with the preparation of several practical things that they can play, we are headed for and understanding of things that will need to incorporate an understanding of the concept of 'Key' and the 'major scale' and the like that most people do have something of an idea. Through discussion and facilitation, they can participate and learn such things...not just have it wash over them or handed to them on a piece of paper.
In using 'altered chords' as the easy progression shows, is not a 'dumbing down' of things at all.
Assume that if they have a guitar, they likely know some basic chords and can play this sequence in some manner, or the I-IV-V change or others. This introduces the sound and idea of open chords. It sounds smoother and 'jazzier' or whatever because of the way these notes within the chords don't change so much, there is a constant E and G note for instance throughout (so the concept of drones even with a functional sequence).
I am obviously skipping over a lot for this, but this would be infoo that is transmitted in small burst of practical playing over weeks.
What I am aiming for in this and other exercises is to think not as these chords as 'shapes' as in that anecdote, but collections of notes. So the idea of what a triad is, how it relates to the major scale.
Along side this will also be a thorough learning of the fretboard. Obviously I'd supply them with a chart of things, likely ask them to come up and write it on a white board, one string each. Show where all the octaves are by playing them. Make them find all the C notes by ear for me playing a constant C or E or what ever so as not to rely on the chart or the pattern and get the idea of developing an ear for it.
Having got the idea of the guitar having lots of "c' notes and that there are the same pitch on different strings and all that, made into a game where they need to find pitches in a round robin kind of thing and other such exercises perhaps...we can then take the idea of 'triads' and find three note chords anywhere on the neck. So, look for a C, an E and a G...how many ways can one find to play these notes anywhere. Ok...having that, if there is some prior knowledge, observe how there are incorporated into the 'shapes' one knows and how by doing that one can make other 'shapes'...see how one can do that with all these chords. Change your C notes for A's and you have Am chords, the e in that to F and you have the F chord, etc.
Now, in a group you have the opportunity for each to find a different note of the chord and so play triads as a group, play them as a melody and so play the 'progression'...even the most beginner will be able to play what will be largely repeated or stepwise melody notes.
Now they may not have the time of be willing to 'get all' of this, it is not 'laying it upon them' but giving them the idea of how this works and opening up the fretboard so that one can 'play' with things intelligently and with intention, the exact opposite of the 'throwing paint at a canvas' remark.
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The anecdote about the student who couldn't find a C note is exactly what this is addressing.
As I say, one can assume that they know some basic chord shapes if they have a guitar, perhaps they know quite a bit. But, there is a good chance that they don't know that much about a triad and exactly where those notes are and that these 'shapes' are just arrangements of that.
It is not just what I bring to the table, there is some obligation to do that I feel and to ensure that in a group, this people are not alienated or patronised.
So, for anything they or I might bring we can dissect these 'chord shapes' to notes and progressions into notes that change between them. Then along with some knowledge of the notes all over the fretboard, we can find all manner of other ways to play them
Having an idea of the fretboard and some basic triad concept, we can look for as many ways that one can find to play those three notes, perhaps a 'progression'. The searching for these things will force more of a knowledge of the fretboard than trying to memorise it. Peer pressure can provide some motivation and focus, it need not be destructive. Participants will learn from each other, there will be plenty of 'why didn't I think of that combination' moments that will 'stick' far more than if they were simply written out.
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SO there is a lot involved, and developing a way to take people from what is the more common outcome that they know a few shapes and scale boxes and the like and develop an understanding of how things are working and where these notes are and developing an ear not just a memory for these things, or at least the knowledge that they can find them.
This is an empowering gesture. The expectation will be not to 'play what I play' or learn 'this' but to feel they can do this.
I want to avoid the 'chord dictionary' thing that is so common. I only know one Eb chord, is this an A shape barre on the 6th fret right...no, it is the notes Eb,G,Bb. You can find one that sounds good in the context of the progression, you will notice that these will resemble 'shapes'...
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But this is just the chord/harmony aspect, what is also lacking is a sense of how melody works with it. This is another reason that I propose to introduce the sounds of altered chords. Even if one is playing basic triad chords to accompany oneself singing say, and this is not "jazz" btw, the melody notes could be seen as additions to these chords so that the music as a whole, not jus thte guitar part, can be revealed.
So, for example we had the song 'dear prudence' earlier. With the melody we could note that the signature 'dear prudence' is spelling out E,D,A, when it gets to the Bb/D we have some minor touches and throughout the third is characteristically avoided in favour of the E sus2 note.
ok, so to accompany this, as the Beatles did and intended, one can consider doing the same, not playing the 'shapes' or even triads 'implied' in the chord chart offered, but D sus2 throughout. Now, you are only going to know or consider this if you are given license to change things, use an ear and ahve a sense of what is going on there...and, be able to identify the note and the implied alternative. You will be able to see, hear and feel the effect of the minor implication of the Bb/D chord and be sympathetic to it. In this song and others and if writing, one's own.
So, we can look at how, as in chords, melodies too have tensions and releases and some expectations of movements, a pull that can be manipulated. So, we can manipulate tension, support it, increase it or diffuse it with intention.
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Of course, this can not be 'taught' in 8 weeks, but the concepts can and the tools to do it if they have a mind to, and to do it in a way that is not 'dry' but has practical application and enjoyable and perhaps even fascinating and can be thought about away from the instrument.
Many people may have taken up the guitar to support their singing or perhaps song writing, all the better. The guitar can be used to play pitches and melody and make clearer what those notes are, get those pitches, see how they relate to the harmony, adjust the accompaniment to suit the 'style' and feel they want.
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The hyperbole is the 'pissing contest' and does not see the bigger picture. The examples ironically illustrate what I am trying to address in such a workshop and generally not found or learnt effectively in lessons.
This is the opposite of throwing paint at a canvas' or some assumed 'post modern' anything goes approach as is clearly implied or accused.
The idea is to get a deeper understanding of what works, how to find it, how to play it and do so with 'intention' to get a desired result.
It is not about 'memorising' notes on a fretboard or learning a million chord shapes and all that.
There are some fundamentals, but things like the circle of fifths if exposed blandly will just wash over people. If it is introduced as a consequence of the principles one is working with, it will be seen to be something 'desired' to learn and useful and will come with time. Most in this country may well know 'of' the Co5s from school.
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I can't say I have the 'method' clear as to how to achieve this, but that is the express purpose of this thread. From the start I was and am asking for things like ah-ha moments...those things one wishes they had been exposed to a little earlier. For many that is learning all the notes on the fretboard. For many it will be getting out of the idea that chords are 'shapes'. For still more is that they learned from sight and didn't exercise the ear enough. For others that they feel they need to be 'taught or have the 'TAB' to be able to play a tune.
The idea is clearly to develop something that will address many of these things that we have in ourselves, discovered later, not generally found in 'lessons' and ways of doing so in an encouraging way.
Music and the guitar should be a passion and something to enjoy and constantly learn and understood and done with intention and discerning, I want more things that encourage that side of things and bring in the fundamentals (yet to be listed) in such a way that it is engaging and useful and produces results.
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The situation is such that one can not ascertain the abilities of the potential participants before they enrol. Everything needs to be adjusted to what they can do and know and their needs and goals. Success will be in large part some enjoyment and encouragement and interest and tangible progress that will engender enthusiasm.
It is not a money making exercise, the cost of time to prepare, to be there, to travel and pay for fuel and facilities and promotion (though I am sure that will be modest) does not equate to $60 an hour profit.
If after a course achieves some of these aims and there is enthusiasm for more, well then we can do it again from where it left off. If there are others that would like to do the first part and there are enough to form a group, then it can be repeated.
Obviously one could do something more 'conventional' and more specific if these could operate effectively as private lessons, but if the option is something 'like this' or nothing at all and no other options but high prices and an 80km journey at least to do it, this is something is it not.
Now, I would like to be able to pass on some information and encouragement and perhaps have these kinds of things offered more widely and give people that opportunity. The only reason for this thread was not a 'debate' but to brainstorm what is it that one can do and what is considered necessary in this situation.
I want ideas that develop a transition from what might appear to be 'short cuts' which is not what they are intended to be and only a few quick ideas there.
A dictionary meaning of the word 'fundamental' is not helpful. Circle of fifths, got you, how were others here introduced to this concept? What exercises would people suggest to show this?
How much do people here know of such things, do people here know without hesitation where all the notes of the fretboard are, what notes are in a chord, can find them without relying on memorised shapes, understand the way progressions work, are aware of the extensions that melodies make on any harmony, can adjust harmony to support or contrast a melody or bass line and all that?
I am not trying to be contentious or anything, I am trying to get to the fundamentals. To do that instead of snide, we need a list and then see how much of this can be incorporated and introduced and left to explore and digest over time and in a manner that is encouraging and useful.
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Post by 4real on Mar 22, 2012 18:38:31 GMT -5
Thanks C1,
missed your post while writing the essay above...experiences like that are helpful.
I would anticipate that the group would be small, no more than 4 people, they have guitars so can play a bit, the profile put to me are "young mums" and so suspect the ambitions to be modest but with a little experience. Everyone is likely to have been taught a little from school about ideas like Key, maj/min scales and quite possibly the Co5s and may well have had some guitar lessons or worked from a method book. Things will have to be changed with the goals and abilities of those attending and there is a social aspect to it where they can meet others in the community with a similar and work together.
Exactly...thanks...And in return...
Cool, this may well come up. People might well have the open position down but want to move on and develop the strength in barre chords. Can't play a tune cause there is a pesky Eb chord in it
I know you are familiar with CAGED concept. So, as far as 'shapes' all these contain barre chords.
The more common is perhaps the E and A shapes. The example of 'Lay lady, lay' previously is a great exercise in moving all consecutive barre chords. Arpeggiating the notes will ensure that you are holding all the notes down and the Am shape easier than the A shape generally and is similar to the E shape so makes things easier...plus a cool song.
So...from a shapes perspective...think of the barre as a capo and anything that can be played in the open position shapes transfer to 'barre' chords. As ReT says, practice playing these without the first finger so that you can use this as a finger 'capo' anywhere else.
Start perhaps on the 5th fret rather than the first...
----5-----5-----8----5----7-------------------------------- ----6-----7-----5----5----8-------------------------------- ----5-----7-----5----6----7-------------------------------- ----7-----7-----5----7----5-------------------------------- ----8-----5-----7----7----(5)-------------------------------- -----------------8----5--------------------------------- ...F.......D.....C......A.....G...chords ....C......A......G.....E......D....shapes
Anything you learn in the open position, practice transposing those forms to other keys with barre chords.
Some have peculiar difficulties physically and are often not used that much. The "D" shape also can be useful but could well be seen to be the top half of the C shape, if you can see that.
So, frequently and especially if the first are small up high and you perhaps don't need the high E note, you will find the A shape played as a barre and a partial barre for the A shape. Additionally, if you dont care about the high e being dampened, then the 'barre' is in fact only holding down the note on the A string right, so you can relax a little and just hold down that note...this can apply to any barre, pressure needs only be applied where it is needed and you should seek to find such things so as to avoid cramping up and making things easier.
A classical guitar player for instance will often appear to make 'shapes' in preparation for what is to be played, but will typically only be providing the necessary pressure to hold the notes that they want ringing.
I recall and you see this quite often, that at first, applying the presure required with the third finger to play the A shape barre is a bit much, you can and might see people cross the second over the third to apply more pressure. I developed a habit of playing this barre quite often with the pinky alone, but all ways of doing it should be tried out as you will need that flexibility. (I started that habit as I always play 'octave' lines with the 1st and 4th finger regardless of it being a 3 or 4 finger stretch). You may well be able to 'arch' the partial barre to let the high E note ring and may be necessary up high where the individual fingers dont fit.
Playing the A shape with the second finger on the g string, third on the d string and the 4th on the b string (and the barre behind with the first of course) is a very useful thing. This forces and arch and the second finger can squeeze in between the others to make things more compact...the little finger is clear there to make 'suspensions'.
Look for similar things in the other common formations there. The C shape the barre is only applying real pressure to the g and e strings, so could be a partial barre or a full barre but pressure only applied on those strings. We ahve discussed the A, the G is a bit of a stretch, but the barre is only 'operating' on the middle three strings so only that pressure or strings need to be 'barred'. The E seems obvious because so common, but again, only the low and high b and e strings are actually being sounded, some arch or relaxation of other notes will note effect it. The 'd' shape is less common, I see it as the top portion of the C shape usually, but can be useful. In the basic form, only the D string is being fretted so the 'barre' is not really required, can be tricky enough.
A 'barre' is not necessarily a full barre across the strings of course, there are are all kinds of partial barres you will come across in the journey and ways things where you want to play notes on adjacent strings and frets. Some might need to be arranged for what you want to do with them or what comes next. Learning and experimenting with all the different combinations of fingers is a good plan so you have options.
Some exercises...
Take any chords you know in the open position and convert them to barre chords...note that some like the C7 shape, you may not need a barre at all and can be just slid up, dampening the two e strings.
Take any note on the fretboard and form as many 'shapes' from them by finding the other notes required. Not just the root bass note, any note.
So, take Eb...find one, now find the chord.
------(6)--(3)--(11)-11----11--------3----------------------------- -------8---4----------11----8----(4)--4-------------------------- -------8---3----------12----8----------3---------------------- -------8---5----------13----8-----1---1------------------------ ----6-6---6-----------13---10------------------------------ ------------------11--11----11-------------------------------
Consider chords beyond the 'triadic' sounds...these can often be easier or even avoid the barres, or require a different kind of barre. Also note that there are often notes you don't want or need to play, the 3rd G shape for instance is difficult, but often you don't want or need that low third on the A string, barre the d,g & b strings and use the first and or third finger to lightly dampen the a string and not fret it.
A great example is what Yakk posted originally.
Take a minor seventh E shape...on the fifth fret is Am7... 5-7-5-5-5-5 ...it is common and useful and requires less raw strength and sounds good often to omit that A string fifth, the note is already present on teh b string anyway...so commonly you will see the 5th fret strings being barred with the third finger and teh low note on the e string the second finger and you will find this is a lot easier to play. 5-X-5-5-5-5.
It also sets up the next idea from his example. The classic '9th' shape, favourite of james brown and others as well as the blues.
go to the open position and play 'c'...then add the seventh and the 9th...so the notes Bb and D, notice we have lost the fifth, G, but this is conveniently right above the D note...
So, X-3-2-0-1-0 becomes X-3-2-3-1-0 (C7) becomes X-3-2-3-3-0 (C9) becomes X-3-2-3-3-3.
Play all those 3rd fretted notes with the third finger as a barre...now you have a barre chord that can be moved all over the place. It works well as a change from the previous m7 dampened a string shape as this two is using the same barre with the third finger.
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It might seem a bit of a chore to 'work it out' this way but consider the 'benefits. You are getting an idea fo how this works, you are able to make any chord as you need them, you are forcing yourself to find notes all over the fretboard and putting then into context of both name and function (fifth and such) and all these will become familiar shapes anyway as you progress.
So, if you need a E7#9 say, you can go, ok...lets take a C shape, I know the seventh, I know the 9th, raise the 9th, the 9th is on the B string...move that up one fret...0-7-6-7-8-0 hendrix chord. But, say you picked the E note on the high or low E, what is an E7#9 from them... 12-11-12-12-12-12...notice how similar this 'shape' is in the lower part to the C shape, see how the B string tuning 'adjusts things and allows a full barre. this is the G shape, but what if we were thinking a more familiar E shape or wanted a G on the top of the chord... 12-14-X-13-15-15 with the only real 'barre' being with the 4th finger on the high strings.
Do similar things as required from chord charts and to taste and you will get a better understanding of the notes on the 'board, what chords are made of, start to see familiar 'shapes', know what notes are in those 'shapes' and recognise the 'sound' of these things regardless of 'shape'...you will find there are ones you favour and like over others or work in particular situations.
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The other big thing that can come of this is in lead or melody playing over chords. So, if you do enough of this, you will find yourself playing say in E and have this 'awareness' and recognise or impose the sound of say a 9th or 2nd when you play a D note over a C chord or a B note on an Am chord, etc. It will not be as some might imagine to be overly thought about once you get the hang of it, it should eventually become unconscious and 'heard' very much.
When you play a note, you will get a feel for that note as it applies to a chord and 'see' the other chord tones surrounding it.
More advanced you can start to see, hear and 'get' the natural feeling of such notes to resolve. When you are playing a note outside of the prevailing harmony, it creates a 'tension' and they have a typical release. A 9th will often want to resolve back to the root, a 4th often to the third, the dom seventh to fall back to the third of a tonic chord or the fifth in a more static chord, the maj7 want to pull up to the root, the b5 fall towards the third through the 4th more often than not.
But, these are less hard and fast 'rules' but the 'feel' of things, perhaps you want to prolong the tension or increase it by not going where it is expected, perhaps you will resolve it into the next chord of a progression, perhaps you will take it somewhere else. Knowing and hearing and feeling thse things will give your music intention. It is a long process and we can learn from licks and patterns to know what works and 'play' while one gets there, but with this in mind, it will start to make more sense and so will the music you make.
It will start to become 'intuitive' and the fundamentals such as learning the fretboard will flow from it and be much deeper than just memorising where they are.
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Ok, so more than enough I am sure, and likely not able to be covered even in a cheap $13x8 hour course with audio and visual aids. However, this is some of the fundamentals often neglected that I really would like to open some people up to, even by stealth, which may become clearer years later. If done in an engaging way that shows some 'results' is even better. To plant a seed is the thing I suspect.
Learning all this depth is not what everyone wants to do, obviously I wanted to and in higher education you have to...how far does one want to take this and have an interest in things. But, if interested, it can be more of a 'game' than a chore...
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Hope that is of interest and of some assistance... pete
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Post by reTrEaD on Mar 23, 2012 1:11:25 GMT -5
none of what I have so far suggested is an alternative to playing the C chord by replacing it with a 2 finger Cmaj7 alternative. Most probably can play the C major chord more than likely. The purpose of these exercises as I saw them was to allow almost anyone to be able to make smooth changes in the left hand and so we can concentrate on the right and play as a group and be inclusive and on the same page. Again an 'example'... ---0---0---0--0---------------------- ---0---1---1--0---------------------- ---0---0---0--0---------------------- ---2---2---3--3---------------------- ---3---0---x--x---------------------- ------------1--3------------------- ...C..Am...F..G... What am I missing here? You made a passing reference to substitution of one chord, then substituted four chords. As pretty as those maj7, min7, maj9, and thirteenth are, they function quite differently than simple triads. Both internally and with relationship to one another. And neglecting to label them beyond their root names beneath the tabulature looks odd and confusing. I don't understand. In using 'altered chords' as the easy progression shows, is not a 'dumbing down' of things at all. If anything, using 'altered chords' doesn't dumb things down. It complicates things up. The only dumbing down part might be calling them 'altered chords' rather than expressing them by name. It is not just what I bring to the table, there is some obligation to do that I feel and to ensure that in a group, this people are not alienated or patronised. That's a tightrope you walk whenever you teach anything, let alone something as complex as music. Get used to it. You have to design your curriculum to achieve a workable balance. Of course, this can not be 'taught' in 8 weeks, but the concepts can and the tools to do it if they have a mind to, and to do it in a way that is not 'dry' but has practical application and enjoyable and perhaps even fascinating and can be thought about away from the instrument. I agree with the first part of that sentence. The rest of it will depend on how much substance you build into your lessons. And how neatly it unfolds as you move forward. There are some fundamentals, but things like the circle of fifths if exposed blandly will just wash over people. If it is introduced as a consequence of the principles one is working with, it will be seen to be something 'desired' to learn and useful and will come with time. Then plan on exposing it non-blandly, early in the process. And have appropriate visual aids. The entire chromatic note structure is derived from that. And the major and minor scales are derived in turn from that structure. One thing builds upon another. Sooner or later you have to deal with it, or just leave things without definition at their foundation. How much or how little depth you go to is definitely a judgment call. To go without discussing it at all won't work and going full length on the topic and associated history along with evolution from pythagorean to just to equal temperament would take more time than your entire allotment. Most in this country may well know 'of' the Co5s from school. Know 'of' something and being able to work with it when necessary are two very different things. You have 3 ways of knowing where sharps and flats appear in different key signatures. Rote memorization and mnemonics Referring to prepared lists Knowing how to navigate a diagram of the circle of fifths There's nothing forcing you to make the third choice. But since it is fundamental to so many other things, it is an attractive choice. A dictionary meaning of the word 'fundamental' is not helpful. Unfortunate. Perhaps you need to put a bit more you in yousful useful. Spend a little time contemplating the concept of fundamental and foundation. Look at the material you plan to teach and consider what is dependent on support from other ideas or skills. Figure out how to make the process unfold sequentially whenever possible. Anything you teach has varying levels of fundamentals. Not just music, although music has more fundamentals involved because of its complexity and the fact that it spans across science, art, and language. Collecting a bunch of clever bits of presentation will only get you so far. To be able to teach, you have to re-evaluate everything you currently know about a subject and figure out how to get the most vital parts of what you know into a coherent package. If you truly grasp the concept of preparing a foundation, you'll be one step closer to being a teacher rather than just a list compiler / presenter.
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Post by 4real on Mar 23, 2012 5:30:30 GMT -5
Hence this thread....
ReT you appear to have strong ideas about things like this and I'd value to know them with a little less 'attitude', if you could just get past that, it would be really helpful.
I did not 'collect' anything, I wrote these with the guitar in hand, right here as I typed...don't think less of me for this. "collecting things' would be me copying the Cof5s, the fretboard charts and a chord dictionary, don't belittle the effort and original work, present some of your own!
I don't know your background in all this, I've said and demonstrated that I do know a lot of the stuff that you would see as essential and foundational/fundamental.
This is a tough call. How about you put yourself and your knowledge and thoughts on this matter in my shoes. You have perhaps 4 women in a room, some guitar experience and an acoustic guitar each of perhaps dubious quality. They likely know a bit but would like the opportunity to know more. There is not a lot of money and time, there is a baby at home, and this is their 'time out' and a way to not have their minds 'turn to mush'. The nearest music store is a good 100kms away and the male dominated and typical sales hype puts them right off, just buy buying strings, let alone paying a premium to some young patronising rock tutor who himself is not likely to really kmow and use the circle of fifths.
The reality is that most of this is neglected anyway and the people don't want nor really need a lecture on the physics of the string vibrating or Pythagoras theory. They want to play a tune and improve.
But, you offered an anecdote, 2 years with a professional teacher and a student can't locate a c note or what a chord is made of. This is not at all unusual. Lets work out a way to address that, is that not the idea here.
Criticism should be accompanied at least by some alternate ideas and examples. This is and never was posted as a 'pissing contest' but you seem bent on this unproductive angle for some reason.
Lets get with the program, I can assure you that with three years of composition, classical theory, jazz theory (in university) and 35+ years of playing and study...I know the circle of fifths...but do they really need that...I some how doubt that, not at this stage. How many people here really have a working knowledge of it and use it in their guitar playing? It is not the point surely for most.
Should they be able to find any note on the fretboard, absolutely, lets work out ways of doing that. Do they need to be able to know what a chord is made of, not just shapes...I think so. Do they need to know a bit about progressions and form in music, be able to pick out a melody and see how those notes relate to chords...I'd like to think so0. How many people here learned this stuff really in guitar lessons?
The idea I thought to offer, was to try and combine some of this typically missing depth, with the foundation to understand that as much as possible, account for different goals and dexterity and previous skills and experience, and open people up to the possibilities that they could explore 'creatively' for the rest of their lives.
And, I think this can be done along side some "clever bits of presentation" and a little "instant gratification" and some enjoyment and enthusiasm.
This thread is intended to hone this down, work out what one might offer and be useful, close some gaps that they might not learn typically, give them some tools to go on with and make some nice sounds by themselves and working with others.
If some young mum stuck at home says, look I can play a little but I'd like to play a few songs and sing along, maybe sound a bit 'better' than just strumming along and explore the instrument and understand a little about what I am doing on the thing, maybe secretly write a few songs and meet a few people that have a similar interest...I really can't see the point of lecturing them about the history of the instrument or Pythagorean theory or yes even the circle of fifths. I absolutely know they are going to feel patronised, see know point and not turn up next week.
If however the hear a few tunes, come away strumming something that sounds pretty and easy and new to them, they will go...wow, I never thought of doing that, where did that come from, how can I make up stuff like that, I never though it would be that easy. Now, I really want to know...tell me about the circle of fifths, pete!
The idea is to expose them to a heap of ideas and run with the ones that attract them and really listen, know what I mean? Call it market forces if you like, give the people what they want perhaps...not force stuff down their throats and be patronising about it.
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Ok, so with that in mind...lets try and make something productive from your post there...
I am confused by your confusion. Although in this there are altered or extended chords, the function in them is still clear and reflected in the labels without the extensions noted at this point. This is not intended as a chord theory lecture.
How exactly do you see them as 'functioning' differently, they function as I-vi-IV-V7 chords don't they. in this key are they not then, C-Am-F-G7. One thing at a time, is it necessary to say...here play Cmaj7, Am7, Fmaj7(sus2), G13. I'm not sure where you learned this stuff or did, but it is common say in Jazz and elsewhere to take the basic chord functions and colour to taste without having the 'real book' specify exactly which voicing is required (though a reasonable guide to the intention and melody). But certainly they function exactly like the 'triadic' chord equivalents and there is absolutely no 'substitution going on there. Does sound quite nice in a sultry kind of way if you ask me, go on, sing it "stand by me"...I think I want show them the Aug chord too...x-6-5-4-4-x instead of that G...still not a sub though, it is G augmented right!
It would be combined with learning the C major scale, seeing how triads are built from those scale tones. Seeing how these notes work as being a part of that key, etc. Although they are extended chords, they are not a separate entity is it? The function is quite clear, the Cmaj7 is a C chord and functions that way does it not.
There is no substitution in this example, it is a I-vi-IV-V7 sequence with some added colour in my world. Now, if I were to say use an Emin as a substitution for a C chord...that is a sub.
---0---0---0--0---------------------- ---0---1---1--0---------------------- ---0---0---0--0---------------------- ---0---2---3--3---------------------- ---1---0---x--x---------------------- ---0-------1--3------------------- ...Em..Am...F..G...
Oh look, we have now made a nice alternative sequence with the change of one chord from one of the most common there is. Good idea, lets also introduce substitutions, thanks...more helpful.
Now, understanding why that is, a little puts on well on the way to learning making informed creative choices...the opposite of you accusation of 'throwing paint at a canvas'.
Since we are now being productive in this exercise, lets see and hear the effect of revealing the 'key' and tonic of C by adding another 'section or chorus' that will 'lift' from this minor sub.
how about this for a 'pre-chorus'...
---0---0---0--0-----0----------------- ---1---3---1--0-----1----------------- ---0---0---0--1-----2--2xbars building to chorus -- ---2---0---2--0-----3----------------- ---0---2---3--2-----x----------------- ---------------0-----1------------- .Am..G/B...C..E7...F.................
Now we are introducing the ideas of inversions such as that slash chord and even a touch or chromatic colour in the E7....
Now, release into the triumphant chorus...
|C...|.G..E7| Am..G/B.| |C...|.G..E7| F....G7...|
Get the idea...creative. How many get exposed to this except through the creativity of some great songs, and mimicking them perhaps.
There is a danger and common that one wont have the daring to add in a chord like E7 in there, or to feel that if a tune is in C then they need to start with or end with or even have the C expressed in the first 4 bars. Not so...
Further illustrates the point with a classic song like 'time after time in C... intro F--G--Em--F verse C extended (with a a sus2/4 vamp) pre-chorus (similar to intro) F--G--Em--F..F--G--Em~ Chorus G--Am--F--G--C
Now we are looking at form and can hear and see the effects in a great song and learn to play it well enough to sing to.
We can look at how the intro avoids the home key and the sense of 'home' when it arrives for the verse. We can see that it is not necessary to keep changing chords, the C is fine for a long time in this context. We can see that we don't have to start with the 'tonic' key and that not all songs can be identified by that, or the ending chord and may well be more effective for it. We can see where the intro material comes from in the pre-chorus lines and how the Em is held for a bit, as in the substitution for C in some ways...but is of course also the relative minor of G as well...hence the big bright triumphant sound of the chorus, but not 'home' till the last chord and the words 'time after time' with a classic IV-V-I cadence.
Illustrating this, we can explore the 'foundations' to be able to use these things and have something more interesting going on.
So...what are the family of chords in the key. In C...lets say C, Dm, Em, F, G, Am, C. Lets number them Lets brush over the rarely used vii half diminished thing for the minute and sub the more common G/D for the moment. Mention it, play it, but not insist. How often do you see this chord.
OK...now...lets play these chords in order. Ok, now lets make up a little progression. How about next week they come back with a progression in C, can name the numbers and find some kind of twist and hear the effects of them. Perhaps find something that avoids the obvious C at the start...plays for instance Dm--G--Am-G-F, Dm--G--Am-G/D-C~~~~~~~
Another week, some minor tunes...etc...along the way exploring relative minors and the like...oh, and learning some classic songs that adults might enjoy and want to play.
It is not about 'song writing either, or 'theory' but about understanding some of the big picture, the effects these things have, the bigger picture such as form and speed of changes and the smaller picture of what these collections of chords are made of and why the Em chord in teh above examples work for both C and G within that key. What it sounds like when you set up a cadence to the tonic but instead go to the one note different Am relative minor as well. Understand, feel and recognise it.
How much of any of this is given in a conventional guitar lesson, but in many ways these things are the 'foundation' of things. I did not need the circle of fifths at this point did I?
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Ok...what else can we get from this...
Ok...well, I have suggested that they may not want to know nor need to nor have a lot of time for all of this in this program...however, what would you therefore suggest. What kinds of things helped you and were offered. A little creativity here. Equal temperament and Pythagoras is not going to help IHMO. I don't even consider this to be any real depth at all and a bit of cheat on my part don't you think...heres some history and mechanics of how this works...now, feel you are playing something or got your moneys worth ~ Feel inspired?
Boy, you really love the circle of fifths there. Hands up all those who use it every time they pick up guitar...what's that noise...oh, crickets...what key are they in...just look up my chart here...ummm...
Sorry fro the sarcasm, not helpful. My Bad!
But seriously, can you really think that someone who memorises something actually 'knows' anything practical in it's use or would not benefit more from a real world application of it in the context of what they want to do and achieve and not what you consider they "have" to remember?
Ok, well I will take that on board and off the top of my head, an alternative to your three...
Ok...we play the C major scale...Now, after some discussion about transposition, perhaps illustrating with a capo that the key may have changed but the functions remain the same, etc...
We compare the C major scale to the G major scale. So, earlier I proposed learning some 'cells' and extending them out a little.
-----------------------5--(7)---8-------- ---------5--(6)---8------------------- ---5--7---------------------------- --------------------------------- --------------------------------- ---------------------------------
ok, that is C major, pentatonic without the bracketed notes there. Ok, lets do G...
--------------------------------------- -------------------5--7--8------------------- ---------4--5--7---------------------------- ---5--7---------------------------- --------------------------------- ---------------------------------
Better yet, perhaps in the open position even. Look, see the only difference in the notes is that F# there.
Perhaps we will then or previously noted some of teh qualities of these notes...for instance how changing that F# creates a 'leading tone' pull back to the tonic.
We will obviously need to be able to play any major scale in order to derive chord tones and triads and extensions and all that...
But...fortunately for us 'guitar players' the guitar fretboard is a vertual slide rule where the patterns transpose exactly length way (horizontally) and with a small alteration for e B string vertically...coool.
Now, combined with our budding knowledge of teh fretboard we can see that simply moving that first 'cell' or any other 'pattern' down a fret, we have B or Cb...ohh, lots of bs in Cb ain't there. Lets learn them all by rote...really. Or, how about we visualize the fretboard and any simple one octave 7 note major scale, where ever you feel comfortable. move it down a fret and read off the notes, move it down to the open position to find G.
It is not skipping over it, I am not proposing it is not important as a concept...but I do think that we can use the instrument and be practical in this way (and we know that is what a lot of us are really doing and not pulling out a circle of fifths chart from the guitar case when we transpose to another key, don't we). Lets be realistic, the concept is important, things like transposition and such crucial...however...
I suspect the 4th way is right in front of you and real guitar players use the instrument itself far more than any memorisation or cheat charts. Woman goes home to hubby and kids in my scenario, they ask, "hey mum, how was the guitar playing, play us what you learned today...and she, what...pulls out the circle of fifths chart my teacher photocopied and wants me to memorise"
Real world is most likely, get a capo! But if you can transition how the memorisation Cof5s is going to be used by the average player over all these other things, I'm listening.
With experience and playing in all keys and time, one gets the hang of it, and not just by ' shifting patterns' but combined with a system of really understanding how these work to form chords and melodies and functions and all that.This is the deeper understanding of what these concepts mean, anyone can attempt to 'memorise' something like that, but what have they got at the end of the day to play? What is this setting them up for if they just want to play a tune or right a pop song or such ambitions?
I'm sure if I started out by saying that in this thread, you or any number of others would say, "well now, how does that help me to play the blues, I play be feel, I don't need know Cof5s...get real, count me out"
Hmmm...nice. Well, this is not an 'ambition' of mine, but I see the opportunity and the purpose and that since no one else is up for the challenge, I thought at least I would see what I might come up with that might work despite the cost to myself to make that happen.
This whole thread is about preparing a 'method' that includes a foundation and transitioning between these concept...have you not got that yet? Others have. The whole point is not a 'slam thread' or pissing contest but to offer some useful suggestions, even better if illustrating the point with actual musical examples and approaches that get your ideas across.
Ah, but cant help the bladder problem in the last line can you, it is not really helpful. I thought it was your suggestion to 'present' lists and charts and facts and all that.
I am proposing the exact opposite, I have sat here with the guitar and brainstormed even you ideas and come up with actually useful, playable, nice sounding, original examples.
Time to put away the hyperbole and digs and offer the alternative, pick up the guitar and make up something equivalent that illustrates the points you think I should get across like I did.
With all due respect, I am trying to be constructive and make something from your strident and obviously heartfelt points but it is hard going I can tell you.
What is the transition from something like the C0f5s for these people if they do memorise it or have it in front of them, then what...play ii-V-Is through all the keys? Spend the time on that but never learn about song structure? Know why the frets are spaced so, but not what to play on them? "Know" a bunch of patterns and shapes but not how they relate to a Key?
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Here's is a challenge then...lets take the song "Dock of the bay" that's a nice one to play, every chord is major. Say they would like to learn and understand this...you have a go...you may refer to the Cof5 if required, though I suspect Cropper didn't when he wrote it...could be wrong...
verse G---B---C---A--- chorus G---E---G---E---G---A---G----E--- middle 8 G--D---C x3 F---D---
Explain how all these major chords fit within the key and work. Explain the effect of the Gmaj to Emaj change, etc...that F in the middle 8 pre-cursing the V chord. Perhaps refer it to other songs of this composer or genre that use a similar effect...such as the hit for Cee-lo F*** You... C--D--F--C or knock on wood, or...a million other hits. And please, don't tell me that that D implies some kind of C lydian approach, cause that ain't it!
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Post by lpf3 on Mar 23, 2012 7:34:43 GMT -5
4real wrote:
Pete, I think you hit the nail on the head right there; that's about all the "theory" someone needs if all they want to do is play rhythm & accompany themselves singing. Those who want to know more advanced theory can pursue it further, and they will.
I think your comment "understand, feel, and recognize it" is the key concept here- I was playing for a long time, and doing those things without understanding them before I "got" it. Simple things like chord building- "a major chord is the 1, 3 & 5 of the scale, to make a minor you flat the 3..........." would have been a big help if I learned that stuff early on, instead of having to muddle through by ear.
I think you should start out with that thinking & let your students take it where they want to take it. Different fingering & different inversions of the chords in various places on the neck; and some melodies within those chords; will come naturally as you move along, IMO.
Good luck with your venture, BTW.
-lpf3
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Post by D2o on Mar 23, 2012 7:39:11 GMT -5
retread,
Obviously, you have a lot to offer, but I think you really need to reel it in a bit.
4real's idea is to make it fun to participate. Sadly, I can directly relate this notion to how this board used to be more fun to participate in ...
Anyone remember asmith?
He had a lot to offer too, and did so with a glad heart and in a non-contentious way. But that was not always reciprocated, was it?
I'm just saying that maybe, despite everything that you have to offer, you could stand to lighten up a little ...
... you know, share your humble opinion but keep it fun for others to participate?
Which brings us back to 4real's concept, so let's carry on co-operatively and with glad hearts, shall we?
Cheers, D2o
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Post by cynical1 on Mar 23, 2012 7:59:32 GMT -5
I want to know how 4Real is going to sell the concept to a room full of women that they need to cut the nails on their left and and grow the nails on their right hand... You pull that off and the Cof5s will be a cakewalk.
HTC1
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Post by lpf3 on Mar 23, 2012 8:25:06 GMT -5
I want to know how 4Real is going to sell the concept to a room full of women that they need to cut the nails on their left and and grow the nails on their right hand... You pull that off and the Cof5s will be a cakewalk. HTC1 I wanted to address the "roomful of women" thing but I backed off. 4real is a brave man................. ;D -lpf3
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Post by 4real on Mar 23, 2012 8:35:15 GMT -5
Two excellent comments there, thank you..
LPF3
Great, I am looking for a hook to get this kind of things more focused...let's hone this kind of thing down. No 'guitar teacher' ever taught me this either. I really got into it from Ted Greene's "Chord Chemistry" in my later teens, but then I am curious about such things.
And thank you D2o
ReT has things to offer and trying to get through the angst to the nub of it and make something useful from what he appears to be saying and condemning the kinds of things I am trying to develop for this situation. Criticism is useful if it is leading somewhere, so lets get some where.
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Personally, I appreciate the idea of the person that started this, a woman in a small country town with a building and charged to find people somehow and respond to the needs and interests of a small community. I looked around, no one has yet taken this on. I might not if I cant get something together as I doubt it will be very profitable nor convenient and it certainly is a challenge in many ways.
But hey, the guitar community is really bereft of women taking an active part and being enthusiastic. From what I have gathered so far, all are women who asked for this, as is the instigator of it, and being the SNAG that I am, I think I am sensitive to some of the reasons that this might be.
And I know in print I too can come off patronising myself and certainly long winded, a lot of that is reaction to the same, less time defending the attitude and more productivity is a good thing, even if it is to push me a little in the right direction or to help as best I can with a question or two that might well be incorporated.
I don't have a list, but I do hope to have a list and goals to achieve some things for half of this, the rest I expect to be some more mundane help with practical technique and the like and listening to them, where they are at and where they might like to go from where they are at.
However, it seems to me, that what is often missing is things like understanding how songs work and this can be a good thing and often neglected as far as I can tell.
Lots of people can dedicate themselves to learning technique and put in the hours and discipline to master this, no teacher can do it for you, but they can help to keep you going and feed you material. As an adult though, if you have a mind too, it has never been easier to acquire (someone might even learn something from this thread, I have). You might even go so far to learn at least chord theory and other intricacies.
But most people want to play some music don't they, they want to know how this relates to actually doing and creating it. I'd been on several sides in the past about this kind of thing but understand where it comes from, there are lots of people who will turn around and point too all these great musicians and composers of contemporary music and go "hey, don't tell me that X new any of this s**t".
It is a fair comment, but the fact remains that the Beatles had a tremendous understanding of things like the parallel minor keys and such, their technique was astonishing. So too many others.
Similarly, people will often come and twig that some of the most successful people are not playing the guitar 'right' or the way that they are being shown in books or classes.
Take for example multi grammy award winner and over 40 records...this guy is a technique fanatic...but check out the way that he lays that thumb over the neck to do this, recognise those chord forms? The baritone is in standard tuning but the inner strings up an octave btw.
Now I am not suggesting that any of us, nor anyone that might come along to anything I might, or may, not get the opportunity to prepare for and present...but the kinds of things that he is talking about is worthwhile, get to what the song is about and find their own voice...PM might be using what ever technique requires to get his 'voice' across and really 'see beneath the hood' as he put it in his aptly named "what's it all about"...
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LOL...C1...I think I mentioned that earlier, but hey, dairy country and a bit of a fishing place, I'm sure they'd all be nice country girls. Fending off my current GF who if accuses me of 'seeing' other women might be harder to negotiate I have a feeling!
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Ok, after midnight and the weekend is upon me, likely will be 'off line' for a few days, people can contemplate the Cee-Lo sequence or the more difficult 'dock of the bay' to explain if they dare...
thanks to all...
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Post by cynical1 on Mar 23, 2012 9:54:30 GMT -5
Something came to me a moment ago from when my daughter took violin ages ago. There were about a dozen kids in the class, all with different abilities, motivations and talent.
Trying to keep them all on the same level was a challenge, but the teacher had a clever little method for that. She tossed out a few song ideas and the group decided on a favorite.
Each kid was given a part, either backing or solo if they wanted it. Over the course of the twelve weeks everyone had their lessons, and a part in the song. It gave the teacher an idea of where the student was coming from, who needed work and who she could tap to help out.
By the time the recital was on everyone knew their parts, were confident and played as a unit. I was honestly impressed at how well they all played together.
Just tossing that out.
My other suggestions was a whip and a chair...but I guess I'll shelf that for now...
Happy Trails
Cynical One
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Post by ashcatlt on Mar 23, 2012 20:42:03 GMT -5
Wow! Just...Holy crap! As for sg harshing on Kurt: You sound like my dad! In fact, I'd be willing to bet that your parental units had similar things to say re: those surf records you brought home back in the day. I'm reminded of the words of Mike Muir: "Just because you don't understand it doesn't mean it don't make no sense, and just because you don't like it don't mean it ain't no good..." Course, I'm not saying that Kurt could more than sort of play the guitar - or sing for that matter - but he managed to express something which a lot of folks in my generation needed to hear at the time. IMO, Nirvana is not really the best representation of what was going on musically around that time. If we look at some of the other bands (Pearl Jam, Soundgardrn, Alice's in Chains, Jane's Addiction, RHCP...) we start to find some folks that actually can play, more than just banging on things in an attempt to piss off air molecules. Then you look at folks like Sonic Youth and My Bloody Valentine and find folks who don't give a damn how you're "supposed" to do things and looking to challenge our understanding of what guitars are for. Anywho... With adults - especially young mothers looking for something creative to do in their precious little "me time" - I think you really need to err in the direction of instant gratification. These folks mostly (probably) aren't looking to start a career in music. Not looking to start tugging the bar scene or record the next big hit. They want to be able to play something that sounds like something when friends and family ask them how their lessons are going. For that there are only two fundamentals which they must (!!!) master: the left hand and the right hand. Strength and dexterity, timing, and clean transitions. Unfortunately, the only way to get these is repetition. Practice, practice, practice...and more practice. And that's going to be the stumbling block here. When I learner to play guitar I had a couple of books and a whole lot of time. Lived in the country with no nearby friends. Id get off the bus, go to my room, and pick up my guitar. All night, every night. Lotta good that did! Now that I'm all growed up with a job and kids I'm lucky if I can convince myself to play a couple of hours a week. And that's where these students are likely to sit. Playing guitar hurts, and doesn't really accomplish much, and in order to have any hope that these ladies are even going to touch the thing when they're out of your sight you'd better give them something somewhat quick and easy and fun, and recognizeable, to work with. Work in some theory or whatever, but not in a heavy-handed manner and not before giving them something that they can play for their friends. Hide the medicine in a hot dog, you know? And, for the record, I came across the circle of fifths very late in life, and never really needed it to figure out where the sharps and flats go. I know that there's a semitones between the third and fourth and between the seventh and octave. I can work the rest out from there. That, and I've memorized by rote most of the more common guitar keys.
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Post by sumgai on Mar 24, 2012 21:00:59 GMT -5
As for sg harshing on Kurt: You sound like my dad! You say that like it was a bad thing. Nope. In fact, they were the ones that "pushed" me into playing music in the first place. Insofar as they were concerned, I was playing a derivitive of instrumental jazz stuff (and indeed, I was the kid that knew 2400 chords....). Thinking back on it, they were never as down on any kind of music as I am on Angst stuff. Never said all of it was no good. I said that nearly every Grunge guitar player that got recorded was not a 'real' guitar player in the sense that, with very few exceptions, he couldn't do anything beyond bash the plank-thing like it was the sole cause of all of their frustrations (and by extension, that physical violence was the best way to minimize said frustrations). For instance; Funny that you should mention those names, as the first four out of five are from Seattle bands (five out of six, if you include Nirvana). Ah, Seattle - home of the Grunge Scene, with capital letters. Not to mention my home too. Trust me, I'm all to familiar with most all of these players, up close and personal. And for my money, the Red Hot Chili Peppers shouldn't be on that list - they may have come onto the music scene at about the same time, but in no way did they ever play anything that could be called Grunge. Or more to the point in this context, they exhibited some real skills, not just pound-and-scream. Agreed. 'Though I thought I'd already said that..... I would've gone with the B52s, I think they presaged that whole "I'm gonna do it my way" movement, and pretty much did it successfully.
First comment in this thread worthy of a +1. Pete, you need only ask yourself one question: At the end of eight weeks, are my little Sheilas gonna be happier playing Michael Row Your Boar Ashore with all the right chord changes, or are they gonna be glowing with pride that they can recite how to construct major, minor and seventh scales in any key? Hint: they can learn the latter part without any instrument at all, yet they're toting guitars into your workshop...... For whatever that's worth...... Hmmmm, further thoughts (before posting); My comment above about happiness really harkens back to my earlier point about knowing both your students and their expectations. That comes from interviews and/or auditions, both of which can be handled via phone or email (with attachments). I'd feel bad for you if you prepared a syllabus that had them doing Pat Methany at the end, only find out that none of them knows a single chord..... To put it another way, an ounce of preparation is worth several litres [sp] of cried-in beer. sumgai
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Post by KIIMH on Mar 24, 2012 23:33:20 GMT -5
To put it another way, an ounce of preparation is worth several litres [sp] of cried-in beer. huh ... huh huh huh ... huh huh ... nwo tah'ts funy! kylE
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Post by 4real on Mar 25, 2012 18:44:19 GMT -5
LoL...hey kyle, nice post, I just need to wait till google translate comes out with a Kyle to reality App...cheers...Litre is spelt litre of course, so one day, metric will come too...ok...so Again, thanks, taken a few days off and play to take a trip up for a bit of a look see, perhaps later today. I took a little time to write up a few sketch notes of a plan, but it will be pretty loose. Ash Quote:Absolutely and so I think we got the idea of this challenge...there is nothing 'wrong' in having something to play, if people are really keen to learn more they will seek it out, a bit of an awareness of the bigger picture though can jump start those directions. I really don't think one can get 'theory' without playing it, this is the problem with the way it is often presented, it tends to wash over one and not see the 'application' or hear it. A lot of it will need to be done by ear as we go along I am sure but there is a chance that people might sit there saying, "so teach me something", so it is best to have at least something that is approachable and a plan all the same. ... So, yeah...we got a bit sidetracked into the 'theory' side of things a bit, but I think introducing the idea of how chords are made and can be used is not too much over that time, if light and progressive and illustrated with playing examples. ... Yakk for instance talked about 'drones' and this is a very guitaristic thing that can be useful and immediately 'playable and offer a heap of ideas that are commonly found or one could play with. The song dear prudence is a great song to look at in a similar way with a repeated bass movement over the static D harmony. I am sure there will be quite a few songs that could be used like that as illustrations and others that could be adapted to that kind of arrangement. A drone can also be used to get an idea about intervals and how notes work against the root say. A simple exercise would be to slide around notes on the g string against the open D string. Such an exercise avoids the need for too much dexterity in forming chord shapes. Learn to listen to the sounds of such notes as they ring against each other, perhaps as an exercise come back with something made up along those lines that sounds interesting to their ear. Again, simple things in the left hand may well give an opportunity to work on the right as well in various ways. The next step could be to do a similar thing with two note (dyads) 'thirds and fourths' against the drone.... --(0~~~)------|--(0~~)------|---------------|-------------------------|-- --7--5--3--3--|--6--5--3--3--|--7--5--3--3-|--8--10--12--5--7--3--|-- --7--6--4--2--|--7--5--3--2--|--7--5--3--2-|--7--9---11--4--6--2--|-- --0~~~--------|--0~~~~-------|--0~~~------|--0~~~----------------|-- --------------|---------------|---------------|-------------------------|-- --------------|---------------|---------------|-------------------------|--
Such an exercise is something we all play around with and is used often in songs as well, "instant gratification" even with the most rudimentary technique, gets one out of the 'open position' and starting to hear and think about 'intervals. Of course, one can learn to do things with the right hand at the same time with and without the pick, damping and all that good stuff. It can graduate to 'triads' over the root and perhaps illustrated by some 'Who' songs like 'substitute' though this might not be their era LOL...perhaps there are other suggestions. I'm not really hinting about the 'theory side' as dry as one might think or been expressed. More like in this exercise how that C# against the 'drone' D is quite dissonant but C# and E it feels more 'comfortable' as something of an A chord. as a fourth of C# and F# something like a maj7 root chord. As the third of A and C# on the second fret against he drone D how one can really feel that 'pull' of the C# up to the D. We can explore how although it wants it 'resolve' in this way, we can delay or manipulate this resolution.... -------------------------------------------------------------- ----2---5---8--7--(15--10--7--3)--------------------------- ----2---6---9--7--(14--11--7--2)--------------------------- ----0~~~~-------------------------------------------------- -------------------------------------------------------------- --------------------------------------------------------------
They can explore something on their own like this, different drones and intervals and such and discover the sounds that work and then have some explanation as to why they are 'working' or sounding as they do. SO, some 'instant gratification but there is the potential for some depth in it as well if they are up for it. Light on the left hand technique so that we can concentrate on the right a little more. ... I hear you about 'auditions' and such, but I am not sure if this is entirely 'practical' or possible. I'll have a chat further about these kinds of possibilities, but to make it work financially (fuel, etc) it would need at least 3 people to attend without drop out as far as I can see. I was thinking of a pre-attendence questionaire about interest, playing experience, what they want out of it, favourite music and such and working around this to some degree. Again followed up in the first session and introduction to each other. Absolutely, we are on the same page here for sure, and hence some of these things are kind of simple pretty things that are easy to play and should not 'hurt' too much LOL. Any suggestions for material or making things up that could work as in the drones above or the "simplified" changes and the like would be appreciated. But yes, we seem to be on the same page here, it is an 'unusual' situation and one that clearly has not been taken up before, but I think it could well be 'doable' and enjoyable in the longer run. There is likely to be quite a bit of physical technique stuff to do, some will have to be aimed at the individuals needs, but that needs a bit of a break as well, so will try and keep some of these ideas in short doses between the playing part to rest the fingers. ... I got my own thoughts on things like the grunge thing, it's all good really, if that's your bag. Expressing angst or a love song is all fairly valid and it really isn't a matter of how 'good' one is on the instrument if it is used effectively for what you are trying to achieve. Nihilistic grunge angst or Bob Dylan's protest songs, the more soothing sounds of soul to out and out pop to rock, it has always been the way of expressing the ideas and thoughts of the times in many ways I imagine. A lot of these people have a lot more 'knowledge' and technique than they are given credit for, some will have help in this too in production and other band members perhaps. They may well have developed an 'ear for it' or able to make some creative leap as well. So, the idea here is a little different from the 'normal' approach, and seeks to open up some areas for creative playing, hearing some of these things in songs or making up one's own ideas. Combining a little 'instant gratification' and encouraging exploration but with a little depth that is often missing in individual guitar lessons and will aid in these things too. So, my thoughts exactly, get some instant gratification and work in a few other bits and pieces and make it relevant to what they want to achieve and they may well want to take things further. Another thing that I suddenly remembered is that I got a great 'fake book' a few months ago... This book has 600 songs in chord, melody and lyrics from 1955 to 2000. Even the above sample J5 song is really only G-Cmaj7 and a simple change, but...Opening it up to a random page (139 in this case) we have the beatles 'eleanor rigby'...nice tune and so simple... the only chords are C and Em with a section over the 'all the lonely people, where do they all come from' accompanied by Em7,Em6, C/E, Em...or simply adding to an Em the notes on the b string D,C#,C,B which is a nice little exercise. So, I suspect that something of this book could make up a lot of material to look at how songs work and can be played, how to make a rendition that is within one's capabilities and study a little basic 'theory' of how these chords work in a key and that kind of thing. ... Largely I would anticipate this kind of work, choose a song that is of interest and reasonably within their capabilities for each of them to choose. Look at the skills in playing it, try a few different right hand techniques perhaps finger-picking, strumming patterns, damped things, perhaps a riff or two. Look at some technical issues they might be having, devise perhaps an exercise to address that from the kinds of exercises I've been developing so far. Look at the bigger picture of the form of songs, chord families, key centre and that kind of thing...any of this other stuff can be inserted into the hot dog subtly as one goes along the way. Sounds like a 'plan' and I think I can offer some value for a short course and group situation. If it works out, we could follow it up with a version 2.0 perhaps, who knows!
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Post by yakkmeister on Mar 25, 2012 21:01:13 GMT -5
Dude - what's a "fake book"? Obviously it's some kind of actual (legit) book ... and it has songs in it ... but what makes it "fake"?
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Post by 4real on Mar 25, 2012 22:23:55 GMT -5
Dude - what's a "fake book"? Obviously it's some kind of actual (legit) book ... and it has songs in it ... but what makes it "fake"? LOL...you should do the course... I forgot to post the link, I can recommend this particular book for it's range of songs, format and everyone should have something like this... www.sheetmusicplus.com/title/The-Ultimate-Pop-Rock-Fake-Book-In-C/2889189#You can see on this site a complete list of songs in this particular book or look up others. A bit like the famous 'real books' in jazz. There are others I believe for genres like 'rck' and such as well of course. Sometimes they have been called 'buskers' books. As can be seen from the example it only gives the lyrics and chords and melody line and basic form of a tune, no real arrangement or piano score or 'how to play it' or as on the record, no chord 'diagrams' or that kind of thing, etc. The advantage is that the entire song lyrics and structure are included in a single page or less. This one is particularly good, 1-2 songs per page, good quality paper and plastic ring bound to open flat at any page...though it is about 2" thick! The songs are alphabetical within the book, but also indexed alphabetically with page numbers, by artist and chronologically from 1955-2000 and a wide variety of genuinely popular songs. ... As I say, everyone should have at least one as these things provide an enormous amount of material at low cost and reasonable accuracy. I got this one as I use it to make arrangements for solo guitar, but it is good for things like playing a band for a basic lead sheet, learning a tune from an outline, checking you have the melody right...teaching people some basics on working from this kind of thing...etc... In this situation, I'd like the 'students' to learn enough to play through these things in some passable way with their abilities and to be able to work out some sensible fingerings and such of chords from the names alone from the guitar without having to memorise 'shapes' and be disjointed as is often the case if one uses a 'chord dictionary' alone. ... I'd also be recommending people to get some basic tuner/metronome...I forget where I got mine off of eBay, but these thing are cheap and functional these days...this happens to be a model I got not that far back (though not from this particular place, there are hundreds of this kind and likely the same regardless of colour and shape). You can plug in an electric guitar or 'clip on' a piezo thing or play a tone to tune to...plus a metronome with beat divisions and such in a small cheap package. Not as an alternative to knowing how to tune, but as a good way to ensure that one is and addressing timing and such as well. Too cheap and useful not to have one. Any other ideas like this that one might turn budding players on to might be helpful, resources and tips and such all good...
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Post by sumgai on Mar 26, 2012 1:01:13 GMT -5
Pete, You missed your que: Dude - what's a "fake book"?. You should've said "Only a drummer could ask what's a fake book!" ;D Or were you just being nice to a fellow Ozzie? sumgai
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Post by yakkmeister on Mar 26, 2012 5:55:18 GMT -5
Pete, You missed your que: Dude - what's a "fake book"?. You should've said "Only a drummer could ask what's a fake book!" ;D Or were you just being nice to a fellow Ozzie? sumgai Is this the wrong time to mention that I play drums ... ?
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Post by cynical1 on Mar 26, 2012 6:45:14 GMT -5
Is this the wrong time to mention that I play drums ... ? Naw...we sort of figured it out on our own... ;D HTC1
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Post by yakkmeister on Mar 26, 2012 7:29:37 GMT -5
Is this the wrong time to mention that I play drums ... ? Naw...we sort of figured it out on our own... ;D HTC1 Ha ha ha ha!! As a drummer, I am a great guitarist ...
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Post by 4real on Mar 26, 2012 16:21:36 GMT -5
It's Aussie, and there are a few of us on here...but no, did not realize where he was from LOL...drummers are ok too, but it is easier to punch the tempo into a drum machine than it is a real drummer that is for sure ;D
I don't think I have posted the "Next Big Thing" in guitar playing, but watch this guy as his career is rising fast and all round nice guy from the UK...Jon Gomm...
I was going to suggest that the first thing a drummer needs to learn is to only hit the guitar with the right hand, but perhaps I was mistaken. Of the fad for 'percussive' guitar players, JG is by far the most melodic, has a range of techniques and can sing and write a great song as well!
I don't personally beat on the guitar nor particularly advocate that kind of thing, nor 'tap' or get much of a sound out of that technique on an acoustic, but there are far more interesting stuff coming out of this 'world' than the traditional approach to things and in electric guitar generally to my ears and there is nothing 'wrong' with getting creative and enjoying playing the guitar in anyway that serves the purpose. It's not an 'easy way' and there are not 'no rules' but it does take a creative mind to not just bring out 'more of the same' from the instrument like this kind of player...
I might have seen this on this forum, this is hard and true...it takes more than technique...
but hey, someone here and there is going to 'make it' in some way...
Some creativity, a good song and interesting lyrics and for the guitar, quite possibly something that few has seen or heard before and yet still sounds 'good'...this song is pretty cool, some language warning, but hey, life can be like that...
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Post by sumgai on Mar 26, 2012 18:31:37 GMT -5
If you've ever heard gumbo speak that word (over the phone), you'd have to agree with my spelling! True, that. Along with Mr. Sooty, about a quarter of our regular posters are from "Down There".
in re: Jon Gomm I'm sure you've read some of the other threads here dealing with alternate forms of guitar music. But just in case..... I'd recommend that you hie yerself on over to www.candyratrecords.com, where they have a whole stableful of players doing just what Jon is doing. Some better, IMO, some not as well, but the point is, Jon's not unique in any regard. My personal fave is Andy McKee: You might also get off on Jonny Wright, a one-man-band wunderkind found on YouTube, such as: Very inspirational for those of us who live where there aren't recording studios on the corner of every other block, and can't seem to find anyone else tuned into the same wavelength as we are.... HTH sumgai p.s. yakky, it's not like you didn't leave enough clues laying around, ya know? Rather, they were more like road signs.... rather large ones....... ;D
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Post by yakkmeister on Mar 26, 2012 20:44:16 GMT -5
Ha ha ha ha!
For the record, I have been playing guitar since I was 10 and drums since I was 30... and I am an awful drummer ... lol!
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Post by cynical1 on Mar 26, 2012 20:49:38 GMT -5
... and I am an awful drummer ... lol! So...what's your point? HTC1
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Post by 4real on Mar 27, 2012 0:02:41 GMT -5
LOL...well it is spelled Aussie, but pronounced Ozzie...who cares, I still put the U in colour regardless of the American spell checker!
I did see that former clip from here, not quite so impressed as I recall (heard too much looping I suppose)...McKee is very good as are most artists on the Candyrat label...and not just acoustic or solo players, there are some great electric players and now piano players and more I see.
To me, Jon G has a little bit 'more', a lot of percussive guitar players don't quite have the melody and songwriting nor singing ability such as that song Gloria there. But they are all of interest, but it is a little odd that all the development on the instrument is coming out of that solo and usually acoustic quarter. Weve still seen the post EVH thing on electric, but not so much in the way that these guys apply it. Jon G also has some unique techniques like the use of tuning pegs to bend and retune on the fly...don't see even Andy Mc and others do that, but it is all great stuff.
I brought it up because in many ways I bought the whole 'right way' to play, don't regret it either, but it also kept me out of trying things like using the thumb over to allow fills and open string voicings and such...and kind of stopped me thinking of the kinds of things these guys do technically. The same applies to things musically to in many respects.
One does not to have a 'gimmick' though, there are lots of other great players out there that don't need things that exotic but are pushing things further in various ways.
There is plenty one could do with the blues form it occurs to me, a person that writes a good blues sequence and lyric out of the norm for guitar (thinks things like J Mayers 'gravity') would equally be on a winner I suspect.
Typically if guitar tutoring touches any of this, it is retrospective and looking what has come before or perhaps the 'next fad' or riff that comes down the pike, few teach how to be 'creative' and find ones own 'voice' as these people have all done, or at least that is my feeling about the state of affairs...good discussion here though...cheers
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Post by yakkmeister on Mar 27, 2012 10:43:53 GMT -5
... and I am an awful drummer ... lol! So...what's your point? HTC1 that the transition is not yet complete?
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Post by 4real on Apr 12, 2012 4:47:59 GMT -5
Well... I received an email today after the Holidays and all that and seem even more interested since I put in my proposal, so can't be all bad. Have been doing a few prep notes on tuning and other 'fundamentals' to at least get that side of things right. Something I've often heard is people have trouble learning the notes of the fretboard, not sure if people have opinions on that kind of thing or tips that have been helpful, I quite like the 'octaves' method of working through that. Otherwise, still taking suggestions suitable to the task at hand...nail clippers in hand Thanks for the spirited brainstorm here as it did generate a lot of ideas and made me think and rethink a few things.
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