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Post by yakkmeister on May 22, 2012 19:46:57 GMT -5
Hey Nutz!
So I recently waxed technical over an idea for a double-fat squier-strat. That concept (not technically a project until I get the guitar, right?) got me to thinking ...
So I often play a jam night and I am often on the bass. I was sitting down with a beer and some mates when this kid gets up on a lefty Cort bass - not too dissimilar to my own (mine's an Ashton branded instrument built by Cort in SE Asia). His bass had so much more gain and had this delightfully wet sound to it. I suspect he had a pedal of some description.
This sound also got me to thinking ...
I have 4 knobs on my Bass ... and I only ever do one thing - dime them all. My bass used to be active but is now passive. It has 2x soapbar-like pickups (active) wired as passive pickups. I have not actually looked at the wiring or really considered fiddling with it until recently.
So I would need 1 knob for volume duties (or, potentially just an 'off' switch) and I don't really use tone controls on the bass ... This is probably because the output on the bass is low or something.
It's a 5-string bass and she's a neck-through (very pretty). I have no problems with installing new pickups if need be but I don't really want to go active.
What I want to do is remain passive but have some kind of tonal pallet that will cut through the mix and get a more 'wet' sound - something that will give me enough output to allow me to play with less force - higher sensitivity?
I thought of the Varitone concept in this bass - the switch plus a knob for controlling it. Maybe a switching device (like in a car radio) and only one, good option controlled by the knob?
What passive filters would sound best on a bass?
Anyways - ideas are much appreciated!
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Post by newey on May 22, 2012 21:42:37 GMT -5
The fact that these are active pickups wired passively may explain difference in output. Actives tend to be wound differently than passives, and may be less than optimal in a passive mode.
Mind you, I'm speculating 'cause I don't know what pickups you have in there (and I probably don't have any experience with them anyway).
But I would try a pickup swap before deciding to ditch all the pots- you may well find yourself using those to "dial in" your sound with different pickups. While I certainly understand you wanting to do everything at once here- rewiring and swapping pups all in one fell swoop- this may be a case where making one major change at a time may be a better approach.
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Post by cynical1 on May 22, 2012 21:54:13 GMT -5
Running a five or six string bass with passive pickups can be problematic on the low end. I'm not a big fan of active electronics on a bass, but it sort of becomes a necessity if you're going for the enhanced low end.
You really are doing yourself a dis-service diming your knobs. A bass can be made much more versatile by playing with the balance between the neck and bridge pickups.
The gain on your amp can go a long way to boosting your output, provided you don't begin to overdrive it.
And unless the other bass had active electronics, my guess he's running some sort of compression...possibly a booster or overdrive.
Might I recommend the BBE Opto Stomp compressor. It's the best one out there for bass, and does an equally good job on guitar. It's not going to cut your low end out from under you, or squash your sound.
The only thing I did on my bass was to put the ChrisK Free Woman Tone mod in. I used some big caps and can go from Rick the EB0 with the flick of a toggle.
Just my two cents.
Happy Trails
Cynical One
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Post by ashcatlt on May 23, 2012 0:52:34 GMT -5
I have no idea what you mean by wet. If you're running everything wide open I have to imagine you want things fairly bright. And you want it louder.
Wiring the pickups in series will get you more volume. Something like double the output. It'll also get a bit darker.
If you put a Tone control across the neck pickup only you'll be able to dial in a "broadbucker" blend which I think you might appreciate. Turning the control down will cut the treble contribution from the neck, but it will allow the high end of the bridge pickup to bypass the inductance of the neck. Once you find the right cap it basically gets you back that top octave which the series wiring would otherwise take away.
This tone control and a master volume and you've eliminated two pots, lightening the load on the pickups and gaining a little bump at the top end. It'll be noticeably louder and have a range from nasty and dark to punchy and maybe even brighter than what you've got now.
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Post by yakkmeister on May 23, 2012 2:52:36 GMT -5
I think you all make some seriously great suggestions.
Newey - It's pretty painful at times just how low the output is on my bass. Dimed, it sounds pretty damned good but it's just not practical. I think you're on the money with a pickup swap.
Cynical1 - I am going to have a look at that pedal you mentioned. I am a bit of a pedal hater but sometimes they're worth having around. I'll have a red-hot-go at setting up this free woman tone mod too - sounds useful.
Ashcatlt - That's a very cool idea! I think I will use that concept as the basis of the pickup-swap & rewire job.
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Post by asmith on May 23, 2012 10:19:05 GMT -5
I bought a bass last year. Stock configuration was two pickups in parallel, a blender between them. I rewired the parallel config. to series, and used push/push pots to incorporate an out-of-phase switch and a 'reverse broadbucker' switch - that's the tone capacitor acting across either the bridge, or both pickups. That last one is (sort of) the opposite to what Ash suggested above. While Ash's config. gives you a waveform that looks like this graph, courtesy of JohnH, the 'reverse' configuration gives what I hear as a "smooth" tone - enough treble from the neck to define a sound, with emphasis on the mid-range punch added from the capacitor and bridge pickup together. When the pickups are in phase, it sounds reasonably close to the tone control at half-strength acting on both pickups, but with a bit more definition. It makes a much more noticeable change on out-of-phase settings. Needless to say, using the blender with these settings, there's a reasonable palette of sounds to be found. |
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Post by sumgai on May 23, 2012 11:53:00 GMT -5
Keep it up, you guys!
I'm always fascinated by people who treat the Bass as if it were an octave-lower lead instrument instead of the support/foundation instrument it was intended to be.
Which of course gives rise to that old saying about how most bass players are frustrated guitarists that couldn't make it. Never bought into that one myself, but there sure is a mountain of potential proof out there.
That is, until you run into somebody like this feller:
We may be looking at the next Stanley or Jaco here......
sumgai
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Post by yakkmeister on May 23, 2012 12:26:14 GMT -5
Asmith: Worth considering ... maybe I will need to experiment with the both of them and either choose or fit some switches ...  Sumgai: I am definitely a guitarist who never made it. I don't mind leading with the bass, not one little bit ^_^ |
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Post by ashcatlt on May 23, 2012 13:28:41 GMT -5
I'm just trying to help the dude get what he asked for. I personally hate that "zingy" kind of bass sound and usually run my basses with the tone all the way down. It can work in certain contexts (Big Black, anyone?) but I find it difficult to understand why so many bass rigs are built with HF drivers which give more treble than any guitar amp.
Yakk- why'ncha try it with the pickups you've got? The series wiring might be just enough extra volume to get where you want to be. And, yeah, try the tone control/cap across each pickup and see which one you like best.
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Post by sumgai on May 23, 2012 21:41:47 GMT -5
OK, I've had my fun, now to get down to work..... yakky, how close are the pickups to the strings? Could be that your "mate" has a rig where they're noticibly closer than yours..... I always put mine as close as possible, until Strat-itis sets in, then back 'em down a half-turn (of the mounting screw). Of course, that method depends largely on your picking style. Play as if you're in the throws of the Muse, adjust accordingly, then whenever you play more softly (read: normally), you shouldn't hear any artifacts, yet your tone should be about as good as it gets.  HTH sumgai |
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Post by yakkmeister on May 23, 2012 23:57:31 GMT -5
Ashcatlt: Much obliged man. The pickups that came with the bass are good, but I think I can do better with passive pickups. No harm in trying, though, so I will give it a go and, as you say, that may be exactly what she needs. I plan to build myself another bass in the moderately-near future so the research for good bass pickups is really going to pay off either way. As for the amps with the fancy tweeters and what not, I find that whether I am playing straight or getting funky all up in that thang, the amps/cabs with tweeters/horns/whatevers sound more immediate, clearer and let the bass open up and really sing. It's like there is a bell-like quality that you totally miss out on if you shun the high-frequencies. TBH, I treat bass more like a piano than a guitar. It can support, it can lead, it can go solo. Having said that, the right guitar can do that too. Sumgai: Picking style? lol! Seriously though - the pickups are about the same height as the deck of the fretboard. Any higher and I'll be breaking my fingertips ... or my thumb ... go knows I hit them enough already. I have since asked about the other guys bass and his is active. So he's got the output to drive the amp better - we're using the same amp, btw. As for the bass being 'intended' to be a support instrument, the guitar, and electric guitars specifically, were 'intended' to be support instruments as well - they were part of the rhythm section, not the lead. Does that mean it was wrong to give them the space to lead? Just because you can doesn't mean you should ... but just because you should doesn't mean you have to Oh! I just remembered! Cynical1: I found a BBE Sonic Stomp - a sonic maximizer ... would that do the job? |
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Post by sumgai on May 24, 2012 1:32:04 GMT -5
.....
As for the bass being 'intended' to be a support instrument, the guitar, and electric guitars specifically, were 'intended' to be support instruments as well - they were part of the rhythm section, not the lead. Does that mean it was wrong to give them the space to lead?
Just because you can doesn't mean you should ... but just because you should doesn't mean you have to Ah, but the guitar has a prior history of being an accompanying instrument for the voice, one need look no further back than the Lute. It wasn't very often that individual notes were picked out for a break, but quite a bit of Lute music shows chords being strummed, and changed, in quick succession (comparatively speaking) as a natural and expected part of the piece. (Often called an adagio.) Whereas in those days there were few, if any, low-register stringed instruments, they came later. Of course, I speak from a classical standpoint and background - YMMV! However, if we all had to abide by my feelings (restrictions), then we wouldn't have Tal Wilkenfeld either, would we?  Nor would we have this particular Tour-de-Force, Polly O'Keary: One of the best, if not Thee Best blues singers and bass players in the Northwest, male or otherwise. And yes, you're not seeing things - what you are seeing is what you get to see when she's on stage. Oh, and a 4½ octave voice ain't a bad thing either.  But enough of that...... sumgai |
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Post by 4real on May 24, 2012 1:41:29 GMT -5
[quote author=sumgai board=wiring thread=6361 post=63175
We may be looking at the next Stanley or Jaco here......
sumgai
[/quote]
Ohhhh....that did nothing for me and certainly nothing like a jaco or Stanley...not even touching me technically or musically...like he's playing some computer game...sheeesh...
There are plenty of valid bass players and soloist...Tal is fabulous at only 21 (and yes, a 'failed guitarist' only turning to bass a few years before getting this gig from guitar)...
go to 1:24 for a magical bass solo.
But there have been many greats in bass, jamersons 'what's going on' is stellar through the whole song effectively....thres ahge range of great 'super bass' players about...
many iun the bass fraternity have been doing more technically and with the instrument than has guitar and guitar players.
Still it remains, the role of the instrument in different types of music is different...no one needs to hear everyone trying to 'solo' all at one and the bass just doesn't cut through on the radio or elsewhere so well. I do love the bass sounds though, an amazing instrument...
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Post by yakkmeister on May 24, 2012 5:00:39 GMT -5
Everything in context
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Post by cynical1 on May 24, 2012 6:52:07 GMT -5
Oh! I just remembered! Cynical1: I found a BBE Sonic Stomp - a sonic maximizer ... would that do the job? This will do it, with one caveat. This includes certain functionalities from their full blown rack mount Sonic Maximizer, which may or may not be what you want. It won't suck the low end away from your bass like most compressors are famous for, but it may add unexpected or undesired enhancements to your signal. With a little tweaking the Sonic Stomp can be a killer pedal. I went for the Opto Stomp because all I wanted it to do was add a little subtle compression to the signal...I have enough other stuff to mangle the signal with downstream... I put this at the front of the signal chain and use it very sparingly. If you have a chance to A-B these together what I said will make a lot more sense. Happy Trails Cynical One |
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Post by andy on May 24, 2012 7:49:25 GMT -5
yakkmeister, it might be worth considering that the pickups you have were designed to run with a pre-amp after them, and used passive may quite literally be very low output. The powered electronics may have been the thing which brought them up to a normal output in the first place.
I'm wary of opening this can of worms, but also, strings on a bass can make a huge difference to how they behave. I have no idea what a 'wet' bass sound is, but the difference in response between different factors (nickel, stainless, flats, rounds) can be vast, not to mention the variations between manufacturers. Assuming you had a set of well worn nickels on yours, a fresh set of steels could make the world of difference.
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Post by yakkmeister on May 24, 2012 20:32:33 GMT -5
Cynical1: Yeah, I figured that would be the case. I will try and get some time to get out and plug a bass into some of these ...
Thanks ^_^
Andy: Yes, the bass outputs very low because the pickups are supposed to be used with a preamp. The problem I had at the time was that the preamp blew and I could not afford a new one. The original was out of production. The luthier who was doing the repair wired them up passively and it sounded really good - it still sounds good. Since then, my playing style has evolved. I still play the melodic-ish stuff but I now play a lot more technical and fast stuff too.
I have tried different string on both bass and guitar, I can't stand steel and flats are going to be too warm. She's not had these string on for very long but there is a new set on the way. I am partial to thinner strings too - if they're too fat, I tire out too fast.
For the record, I have ordered a custom set of SGD pickups. There's a bit of a lead time on them as they have to be made up but I'm looking forward to some quality passive bass pickups!
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Post by 4real on May 24, 2012 20:47:27 GMT -5
Definitely sounds like the problems are associated with trying to run low impedance pickups designed to run through a preamp with out the preamp.
I hope the passive pickups cure your sound woes. Many people find active pickups on the bass give a nice articulate sound and as mentioned, with the extreme lows of a 5 string, often a good thing.
Not using the tone and pickup blends of your controls, even having it turned to max, on a properly working instrument you are missing out on a lot of variations and great sounds.
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Post by andy on May 25, 2012 6:11:28 GMT -5
Cool! I get myself quite worked up over a new set of pickups. Easily the most exiting part of tweaking a guitar for me.
You may also find that with the pickups giving you the right signal levels you could get more useable range from your controls, too.
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Post by yakkmeister on May 25, 2012 8:19:09 GMT -5
Yep - this is why the new pickups are on the way.
TBH - It's something I have been meaning to do for ages. Thanks to Newey for reminding me about that ...
Yep - that's precisely what I'm expecting.
Still interested in throwing a sweet little notch filter in there though ... ^_^
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Post by reTrEaD on May 25, 2012 9:45:08 GMT -5
I have no idea what you mean by wet. Same here. When I think "wet", I think of heavy effects (reverb, echo, chorus, etc). I'm also confused about "soapbar-like pickups". People have used that term to describe everything from wide single coils to Musicman humbuckers to Gibson sidewinders. Bartolini has a ton of "soapbar" pickups in various sizes and shapes.
I'm wary of opening this can of worms, but also, strings on a bass can make a huge difference to how they behave. I have no idea what a 'wet' bass sound is, but the difference in response between different factors (nickel, stainless, flats, rounds) can be vast, not to mention the variations between manufacturers. Assuming you had a set of well worn nickels on yours, a fresh set of steels could make the world of difference. That's a can worth opening. Strings are too often overlooked. There are tons more varieties of strings available for bass than there are for guitars. Since the string is at the heart of the process, it makes sense to look carefully at what's available. But selecting a set of strings isn't as "sexy" as new pickups and bridge. So it's easy to see why they are largely ignored. |
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Post by andy on May 25, 2012 14:19:22 GMT -5
I don't know, some of those G-strings...
I think the general assumption about a soapbar is that it is a somewhat flat and broad EQ'd humbucker, although EMG alone have full 'buckers, split coil P-bass types and standard size Jazz pickups housed in those casings. It is certainly not as clean cut a definition as the J & P-bass standards.
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Post by yakkmeister on May 25, 2012 20:14:32 GMT -5
In terms of strings, I have looked at what's available and I have tried a whole bunch of them - the ones I like are the ones I use. I choose them for the feel as well as the tone. You could say that I am building the rest of the setup around the strings.
As for "soapbar-like" I mean the shape - up until the last few days, I have been largely ignorant of bass pickups.
Turns out they're most likely to be wilkinson brand, active, humbucking pickups. They're Bartolini M4 or EMG-40 sized. The string spacing on this bass rather narrow, changing the effective sensing area of the pickups slightly.
As for wet, I think the guy was using some kind of effect - like the slightest touch of auto-wah or some envelope filter thing that makes the bass sound more fluid. I'm not terribly interested in emulating that exact sound though - I just want to get more dynamic range and utility out of my bass.
To that end, I will be;
swapping the p/ups for the passive, SGD set
wiring SGD's in series
Tone over bridge, master volume
Currently, I believe, the bass has separate volume and tone controls. I'm thinking the 2 remaining pot-holes can accommodate a passive notch filter.
Since I have to take my daughter to an ice-skating thing, I won't be able to draw up anything just yet but as soon as I get a chance, I'll throw some time at a schematic.
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