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Post by sbgodofmetal on May 30, 2012 10:01:34 GMT -5
What really caught my attention was the homemade baseplates he made. Just wish his drawing he provided wasn't in cm and mm though.
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Post by cynical1 on May 30, 2012 10:25:28 GMT -5
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Post by sbgodofmetal on May 30, 2012 11:34:17 GMT -5
Thanks c1 I'm gonna bookmark that one ;D
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Post by 4real on May 30, 2012 16:03:51 GMT -5
LOL...you just don't realize how much easier the metric system is for these kinds of things. I'm old enough to have grown up with inches and still think that way for things like a persons height and such, even still think a bit in miles...but for this kind of thing and accuracy...join the rest of the world.
I'd seen that site years ago, the CD case tends to be very brittle and tricky to do, of course anything will work that is suitable, the fender bobbins were effectively 'paper'.
No time now, but there are lots of great ideas for winders made from everything from lego to drills and such. I had an old film winder for instance and you can set up a cheap calculator as a counter if you are cheap. Open it up and take wires from the = sign and attach to say a reed sensor and magnet or similar. type in 1+1 and it will count up adding 1 each time.
Is it profitable...no. There is a lot of art and science required to do things really well. The best advice really is to rewind old pickups to start with. There is a lot of research that can be done. I have lollar's original book if you are interested, but there are easier ways to do it than this old classic.
Compared to what Artec put out in high quality and low price, no you can not compete and they are not 'bad' at all (look at the reviews GFS get for repackaging and hyping them). The custom market is also saturated.
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Post by sbgodofmetal on May 30, 2012 16:48:16 GMT -5
What I'm really getting into this for is to make as much of my own guitars as I can. I really want to build and sell custom guitars and thought it would be a nice extra touch to have custom in shop pickups made specifically for each guitar.
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Post by sumgai on May 30, 2012 17:22:05 GMT -5
What I'm really getting into this for is to make as much of my own guitars as I can. I really want to build and sell custom guitars and thought it would be a nice extra touch to have custom in shop pickups made specifically for each guitar. To be fair, that's a laudable goal. But that bit about "specifically for each guitar"..... have you thought it all the way through? I mean, why are you even here in the first place? To learn about changing out pickups, right? And what do you suppose at least half of your potential customers are gonna do when they get home, eh? That's right, they're gonna pull a NutzHouse "that ain't complicated enough" and start messing around, first by swapping out your "made with love in America" pickups for something built by someone else (made anywhere) that has some kind of reputation. If it was me (and that means, if several people were holding guns to my head, from all angles), then I'd start out by offering my guitar with a range of pickup options from other makers. Let the buyer choose what they want, and you install it. When you see a direction most of your buyers are taking (more into Blues, or Heavy Metal, or whatever), then you can start making your own pups with characteristics that should appeal to your market (or at least a larger segment of your market). Remember this above all else: There ain't no Gawd's Gift to all guitarists when it comes what they want. Some will buy your axe just for the sound, some just for the feel, and some because they like the total package - but that last group will be in the minority, I assure you. What this means is you have to provide a complete instrument for sale (for prospective buyers to try out, and to play immediately when they get home), but don't expect your pride and joy to remain in as-built condition any longer than it takes an idea to form in the buyer's mind. From that, it seems a good idea to develop a relationship with your buyers such that they should feel comfortable asking for changes or mods, whether at the initial purchase or down the road a year or two. That way you keep your finger on the pulse of what's happening in musicdom, and your reputation as a builder keeps going up in esteem. HTH sumgai
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Post by sbgodofmetal on May 30, 2012 19:09:18 GMT -5
Touche sumgai. Point well noted and copied in triplicate for future referance...But In the end I could always just have it as an option with a few floor models setup for people to check them out and decide for them selves. the main feature I was going to do is take some wood scrap from whatever top wood was chosen for the guitar and make the bobbins out of it. So the pups would literally match the guitar.
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Post by sumgai on May 30, 2012 20:01:17 GMT -5
.... the main feature I was going to do is take some wood scrap from whatever top wood was chosen for the guitar and make the bobbins out of it. So the pups would literally match the guitar. Again, not a bad idea. I'm sure it's been done before, but probably not at a price point where non-GuitarGawds could afford it. I say go for it, but be prepared for lots of "yeah, but can you make it sound like so-and-so's pickups/guitars?" Have your answers ready, and keep a smile on your face, and you should be good to go. sumgai
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Post by sumgai on May 30, 2012 20:01:18 GMT -5
.... the main feature I was going to do is take some wood scrap from whatever top wood was chosen for the guitar and make the bobbins out of it. So the pups would literally match the guitar. Again, not a bad idea. I'm sure it's been done before, but probably not at a price point where non-GuitarGawds could afford it. I say go for it, but be prepared for lots of "yeah, but can you make it sound like so-and-so's pickups/guitars?" Have your answers ready, and keep a smile on your face, and you should be good to go. sumgai
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Post by newey on May 30, 2012 21:41:43 GMT -5
Up until a couple of years ago, there were several wood pickup makers, but several seem to now be defunct, including the UK-based Swineshead pickups. There is still Reed James Pickups. He claims great tonal benefits from the wood bobbins. I'm skeptical, but they are pretty. Much more common is to simply make the pickup covers out of wood. There are numerous manufacturers of these. I've seen pretty good results just using wood veneer glued onto a regular plastic pickup cover. While it must be tough to fit these into a pickguard, for rear-routed use (or custom builds) that wouldn't be a problem. Here's a Bubinga one from Allparts, for a HB: Allparts exotic wood pickup coversThis guy makes wooden pickup covers for basses: Warrior BassesOr this guy: gminet
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Post by sbgodofmetal on May 31, 2012 0:16:58 GMT -5
Wow that bubinga pup looks nice but I was going for opencoil pups with hex head adjustable poles, instead of flathead screw poles. My main goal what I'm really aiming for is a true humbucker sized p-90 because I sent an e-mail to gfs asking about there's and they won't do what I need them to even though their the ones who produce them.
Things I'm looking for: Humbucker sized overwound P-90. Alnico 2 in the bridge Alnico 5 in the neck 42awg wire on the bridge 43awg wire on the neck Hex head pole pieces Single conductor connection wire Rw/Rp on the neck pup
The majority of this list GFS won't do....
Love their prices... but can't stand their lack of real variety
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Post by yakkmeister on May 31, 2012 5:17:07 GMT -5
Have a look at these.I think you should a) just get and make some pickups. b) don't worry about all the mojo bulls t regarding what individual parts "do" c) play and research as many pickups as you can - what do you actually like and how were they made? I used to think that what I wanted was super-high output humbuckers with crazy overwound blah blah blah ... Turns out the stuff I like to play, the songs I like to listen to, the artists that I appreciate all required different pickups. Vintage 'buckers and lipstick-singles, broad-bucking strats and so on. It's not a science, it's an art. Explore, enjoy and create. Don't get caught up with the idea that a hot pickup has to have 42 AWG wire and a 8.5 Ohm DC resistance (which says absolutely stuff-all about the pickup except for it's DC resistance); sometimes a hot pickup simply has a more powerful magnet, a taller or wider coil. a mix of things. Fact is, if you're going to be using a lot of effects, your pickups will mean less and less to the end result. Hetfield used the metal de-facto setup of EMG 81/60's. They are not 'toneful' pickups. They are designed to pump out an almost hi-fi signal to a billion pedals and effects or, as is early Metallica's case, some heavily modded amps and a handful of stomp-boxes. Does the cover make a difference? Does a paper bobbin sound different to a wood bobbin? Does the thickness of the varnish on the wire change the sound? The type of varnish? Does potting change anything? Yes - it's all yes. Everything makes a difference. You can't really plan for it. Sometimes pickups sound different to how they aught to. A lot of that is in wiring (that's a lot of why most of us are here, I dare say) and how you play, what wood you're using and what amp, the amp settings and the relative comfort of your underpants to the proximity of the nearest hot ladykinds. There is a lot of science involved but it's invariably art and it's invariably a case of something being more than the sum of it's parts. Don't sweat the details for now; get some pickup kits and ... make something. Make some noise and share it with the world. [edit] Obviously Hetfield et al have used different thing over the course of their careers... and I guess that's also the point ... [/edit]
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Post by sbgodofmetal on May 31, 2012 5:32:44 GMT -5
My hats off to ya yakkmiester, (now if only I had a hat ;D) I'm just another nut seeking his own sound. Though since I am starting. My own shop it would be good to know how to wire pickups, might come in handy one day
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Post by sbgodofmetal on May 31, 2012 5:38:29 GMT -5
Yeah hetfield didn't start using emgs until about 2-3 years ago. Or whenever death magnetic came out anything before that and its only kirk hammett using emgs. Which would be from about 1996 to present day for hammett.
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Post by yakkmeister on May 31, 2012 6:22:22 GMT -5
Yeah, something like that ... Dude, if you can make some good pickups, I may even want buy some off you
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Post by sbgodofmetal on May 31, 2012 6:43:25 GMT -5
Dude, if you can make some good pickups, I may even want buy some off you I just might take that offer. ;D I'm planning on starting guitar projects one, two, and three in about 2 or 3 weeks. (Depeneds on how high the bills get.) And I'll be making two sets of humbucker sized P-90's and a strat pup set. My fourth project will be a bass so c1 I know your looking in from time to time there'll be a set of bass pups for ya if you like what you hear. [Edit] the bass will be project one sorry my bad. [/edit]
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Post by sbgodofmetal on May 31, 2012 8:18:56 GMT -5
Ok C1 this be were your knowledge could be very useful. My stepson wants a thunderbird bass so that's gonna be my project one, and I know I'm gonna use humbucker sized pups but what should they be? Should I go with dual humbucking, dual singles? Or mix the two? What would sound best going by your own experience as a bass player?
This will be his very first bass guitar, so I'm thinking the singles, but the modder in me say to mix. Haven't eved decided on a tone wood yet but ill post more on that in another thread.
Anyone know were I can order those over sizedbass polepieces? stewmac doesn't have them.
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Post by yakkmeister on May 31, 2012 8:53:24 GMT -5
In all my years playing bass, only the cheapos didn't have humbuckers. Even the P- and J-bass stuff comes in humbuckers these days. Select pickups that will work with the string spacing and work for the style of music you're going to play. Singles suck on bass. They don't sound better (to me) and the hum is annoying as anything. Especially through a 450 watt rig ... I recently bought some SGD custom pickups for my bass - Have a look. You may learn a bit from the FAQ there - It's got some interesting stuff. There's a lot of gear from this place you could look at for inspiration.
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Post by sbgodofmetal on May 31, 2012 9:04:23 GMT -5
That just makes me wonder! There is a way to make single coils hum free without making it a humbucker but I don't remember how its done so in the spirit of DIY'ers everywere I shout out our battle cry and will hence forth march. "GOOGLE IT"!!!!!!!
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Post by sbgodofmetal on May 31, 2012 10:06:13 GMT -5
So all I could come up with from google was....... Sheilding, sheilding, sheilding, grounding, sheilding, sheilding, grounding, grounding, grounding, sheilding, grounding, potting, sheilding, grounding, replace the pickups, and even more sheilding, sheilding, sheilding, grounding, sheilding, grounding, sheilding, sheilding, sheilding, grounding, buy new pups. All in that order.....
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Post by cynical1 on May 31, 2012 10:18:32 GMT -5
Ok ...a thunderbird bass...and I know I'm gonna use humbucker sized pups but what should they be? The original Thunderbird pickups were humbuckers, and the re-issue pickups are also humbuckers. The T-Bird is a unique profile, so you're going to run into trouble just randomly dropping in any old pickup. Lollar and Bartolini make a very nice replacement pickup. I don't believe DiMarzio makes one, but as I recall Seymour Duncan has one you can get out of their custom shop. Depending on the bridge you're planning on using you can always cheat to get the right spacing. Some of the older Bill Lawrence blade humbuckers would probably work, but don't take my word for it without verifying the dimensions. HTC1
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Post by sbgodofmetal on May 31, 2012 10:36:43 GMT -5
Well the fit of the pups won't be a problem since I'm making the body and the pups. I have an explorer clone that I'm going to use to make my template. Since essentially that's all a thunderbird is, is an explorer with the horns drastically rounded out. I'm going to start another thread going in detail on the project here shortly. So I guess its safe to say I should just go with what gibson originally did and go dual humbuckers, at least to stay true to the guitars original design.
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Post by cynical1 on May 31, 2012 10:47:34 GMT -5
Remember to scale your neck pocket accordingly. I don't know what the width at the heel is on a T-Bird, but I do know they were a 34" scale neck, to compete with Fender.
Now, if you want to get tricky, reverse the horn. The original T-Birds were made this way until Fender sued them. The originals were also a neck-through design which morphed into the typical Gibson set neck design over time.
And drop the coin for some plans or templates. SWAGing it off of an Explorer body is kinda...lame...none of your pickup or bridge locations will be valid.
HTC1
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Post by sbgodofmetal on May 31, 2012 11:05:11 GMT -5
SWAGing it off of an Explorer body is kinda...lame...none of your pickup or bridge locations will be valid. well I see the point there but I'm only using the explorer to get the shape. Bridge and pups will be setup manually and not taken from the explorer. Besides I already knew i'd have to compensate from the differences in neck scales and widths at the heel. Those specs will be taken from the neck (when it finally arrives)and technical specs taken from an existing t-bird.
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Post by sbgodofmetal on May 31, 2012 11:25:17 GMT -5
I've already decided on making all four sets of pups out of maple, alnico 2's at the bridge, and alnico 5's at the neck, but on the strat pups what should I expect if I mix the two? Have alnico 5's on strings 4,5,&6, and alnico 2's on strings 1,2,&3 has this ever been done before?
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Post by yakkmeister on May 31, 2012 22:21:57 GMT -5
I've already decided on making all four sets of pups out of maple, alnico 2's at the bridge, and alnico 5's at the neck, but on the strat pups what should I expect if I mix the two? Have alnico 5's on strings 4,5,&6, and alnico 2's on strings 1,2,&3 has this ever been done before? It has been done before. I can't remember the exact pattern though. From memory it was was an AlNiCo IV on E & B with AlNiCo II on G, D, A & E strings. Don't quote me on that. I believe that the magnetic strength difference is too pronounced between Alnico II and V to have a smooth-sounding pickup - that is the output of the V strings are much more than that of the II strings. Personally, I would suggest you use the same magnets for bridge and neck - do the II/IV setup if you must (cos that's kinda cool and has the capability to make a very nice pickup) - and use the number of windings to alter the rating. Bear in mind, too, that differences in bridge and neck pickup are largely arbitrary - you won't be 'wrong' by reversing it - it's all up to your ear. Short version? Make 2 pickups with the same magnets and different windings. Try them both in each position. Choose which is neck/bridge based on the sound.
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Post by yakkmeister on May 31, 2012 22:35:45 GMT -5
Well the fit of the pups won't be a problem since I'm making the body and the pups. I have an explorer clone that I'm going to use to make my template. Since essentially that's all a thunderbird is, is an explorer with the horns drastically rounded out. I'm going to start another thread going in detail on the project here shortly. So I guess its safe to say I should just go with what gibson originally did and go dual humbuckers, at least to stay true to the guitars original design. I have to heartily disagree with you on that. V's Notice 2 important differences; The 'waist' of the body of an explorer is not offset. The 'waist' of the body of a Thunderbird is offset. The upper 'shoulder' of an explorer is very narrow. The upper 'shoulder' of a Thunderbird is very wide. The guitar you have posted is even narrower still. Not saying it won't make a good bass but I am saying it won't make a Thunderbird. C1 suggests buying plans - I am going to second him. Get plans. You want to be a luthier; do it the right way and don't form bad habits. Planning is the most important stage. Do it right. PS: Don't get me wrong, I have faith in you.
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Post by sbgodofmetal on Jun 2, 2012 16:33:05 GMT -5
So what do y'all think of a pearl guitar pickup?
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Post by yakkmeister on Jun 2, 2012 21:28:19 GMT -5
Pearls are expensive and will dissolve in sweat.
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Post by 4real on Jun 3, 2012 18:08:24 GMT -5
www.gibson.com/Files/USA_PDFs/ThunderbirdBass.pdfI found the above actual measurements of a thunderbird bass. Google is your friend. Lame...well, worse than that. A bass and a guitar of a different shape and construction is a recipe for disaster. Perhaps scale one up from a good picture and really research the differences in the firebird guitar/bass line. Be aware that the guitars certainly had a bad balance problem...price for the 'cool factor' etc... ... No, see they are made by Artec in korea and rebranded, price hiked and ultra hyped in the USA. ... To which, a lot of these ideas do sound like someone has been reading too much mojo and looking at things aesthetically and patriotically (which is generally an illusion frankly) over what these things can do. In looking not far, I found this interview with Seth Lover (inventor of the HB pickup) home.provide.net/~cfh/seth.htmlIt takes years to get good, the most salient thing is what Yakk had to offer earlier. One of the big things that more sensible pup makers have said is that very few of the wannabe pickup makers, of which there is an over supply and generally all marketing BS to compete, is that most have never seen let alone heard a great PAF pickup to compare there's to anyway (as an example). The old pickups were wound by hand and a mixed bag, there was no 'magic' in the colour of the bobbins and all that, some were great others not so good. The main thing was that they started the template. The Mojo started much later, they were more concerned they made a decent sound. The way we use guitars and amps and such have radically changed, but the pickup guitar thing has gone the opposite way to a large degree. We have people going for the mindless "more power' thing even though they say use a modelling amp that will perhaps have the inputs overdriven. The more power thing was more about driving the input of valve amps, now we have drive stages to produce similar effects...no need to take a razor to the speakers to get distortion right! It takes a step back and a lot of research and more experimentation to get something decent really, anything will make a noise. The determining factors should not really be the kinds of things listed, IMHO... I read this and it sounds like a list of mojo...there is no mention for a start of what you are trying to achieve, but what 'features' the things have some aesthetic the rest unseen and so mjo essence. For instance, you want single conductor wires...because a shield hum free cable is not far superior. WTF? Hex head poles...umm...they look cool? They wont turn right in a round hole for adjustment for a start, what is the reasoning here? 43asg...because? You can overwind them with a thinner wire. Do you believe the magic is in teh actual copper itself? Becasue that is in a tele neck pickup...ignoring the narrow high coil design? P90 cause it seems to be flavour of the month? Over-wound, you can't get a normal p90 into an HB size, it is the nature of its shallow wide coil that it is wider than an HB. ... Making your own, you will simply not be able to compete frankly...here is an example from one of my guitars... These HB's are no doubt made by Artec, tortoiseshell bobbins and overwound. Largely chosen cause the are a visual feature on the guitar and cheap, perhaps $20 each. They have 4 conductor shield cable, cloth covered bobbins and are exceptionally well machine wound and tight. An unusual 'feature' is that they are all slug poles, more mass but no adjustblility individually. But really does that matter, one could 'talk them up on all kinds of things, they are what they are. They are powerful, they split well as a result. How do they compare with other pickups, such as my authentic JB duncan in another guitar, or the 'seymour designed' versions before that. Well, the differences are kind of subtle to tell the truth. I chose them cause they suited the guitar, plain and simple, looked unique and suited the project and within budget. I get a bit wary that many people think that these things are 'simple' and therefore anyone can make them and so, without experience and research and lot of practice, one can talk up by perpetuating more ill-informed mojo or even convince oneself. To me the obvious thing to do would be start out by selecting a 'sonic goal' and work towards achieving those ends. Put the made in USA aside for a bit (most things are made by machines and use imported plastic parts, why not they 'sound the same' and does it really matter where the machine is to the result, I don't think so, just marketing hype if anything). Youa re not going to be able to judge things without a direct comparison with the 'real thing' as a control and by consulting good players that have tried and could have the pick of these things to know if you have something special...the specs of the parts mean little if anything, only the results. There are already a lot of very well informed manufacturers out there making such things and modelling after these kinds of 'formula' and traditional designs. The world needs more or innovators? As for the aesthetic things, sure wood can look cool, hard to make though, delicate stuff generally requiring CNC machining...there are guys doing this of course. Lots of people of course don't like the whole 'exotic' wood thing and would prefer 'black' or some kind of 'metal' or shiny or cover-less...it's a mixed market and changing. As for guitars. well that itself is a complex craft and the market is hard to predict. By the time that your ideas get anywhere near being of a quality for the marketplace, people have moved on from p90s and such and perhaps something completely different is in vogue. Look at the kinds of players and music demands are coming up. Look at things with an open mind, for metal stuff, lots of players prefer teh 'hi-fi' like sound of EMGs not for the power but the clarity...you don't get that kind of freq response nor note definition from the more power is more crowd that are sucked into the over-wound pickups. Can you or your market actually tell the difference between alnico 2 or 5 or know to prefer one or another? Still, making stuff can be it's own reward. Best place to start is how most do and just rewind a few old pickups and learning the craft and a lot of research too, see through the hype. Better yet, set some goals of what you want to achieve stripped of hype and work out a strategy to achieve those ends regardless of the materials that are used. Be realistic about the costs too, these are significant in many ways, can you realistically compete? The made in the USA part, well I'm not from there, but that in of itself is not a feature but an emotional or ideological stance. Sure, if the results can be had in the USA, why not. But, much of the ideology is working against you I suspect. hope the dimensions for a T-bird helps a little, I could not find an actual pdf of the design but quite a bit came up with a simple google search there. More research and back to basics It think is required. A great site on making winders, out of Oz is this... designed2wind.alphalink.com.au/The traditional method including the lollar book is to use sewing machine motors, lots of power and torque which I don't think your RC motor is going to really provide. But, electric drills work well and have a good mounting system and gearing and cheap. The 'unique' thing about the lollar thing was perhaps the 'traversing system' which is not really necessary and fiddly, in that he uses a sweeping fan mechanism. Basically something that is perfectly flat and controllable is the go. You need tensioning too, felt tightened by a screw is advisable...and a lot of practice.
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