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Post by Runewalker on May 25, 2012 12:23:02 GMT -5
This thread: guitarnuts2.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=wiring&action=display&thread=6360and SumGai's comment: Gave me an idea. SG's mention of the 4-way tele sparked a non sequitur associations with the JA's Double Barrel Switching design. Do any of you recall the original John A site's catalog of designs and a sort of anonamlous design approach using two level switches: I was first struck by how that small Strat cavity could hold both lever switches. I kinda liked the look. Then I was intrigued by that "10 on the Floor" transmission shifter. Reminded me of my other now abandoned hobby of hot-rodding cars. Hey, there's a linear progression: Hotrodding engines, hotrodding amps and guitars. Same engineering principles: - Excess is best
- More is never enough and
- Petal to the metal
However I was not so taken by the switching options the design rendered, so just filed it away as interesting, maybe I can do something with this later. Uncle Son-o and I are converting my venerable Midas P90ified Strat with Shark teeth to something even more obnoxious, a HSS with a P90 form factor hot-rodded humbucker in the bridge position. I have the time-tested TM-II design (thanks John H) installed on Midas, but have been converting my strats mostly to HSS 3-hole HBD designs. guitarnuts2.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=nutzoid&action=display&thread=3778However, I prefer the 4-pot config compared to the 3-pot config, although the later works well. The pairing of SG's note with the double barreled memory sparked a design notion of: - a 2P3T for each two-coil Primary Combo
--- 1. the bridge humbucker and --- 2. the Mid(SC)/Neck (SC) combo --- essentially a non-adjacent-coil humbucker.
- Vol for each two-coil Primary-Combo.
concentric pots for the tone controls of each two-coil (primary) combo.
- A three way pickup selector (either mini or possibly a gibby style)
- A Push Pull on the Neck (SC)/Mid(SC) Vol control for System Series
- A Push Pull on the Bridge (humbucker) Vol control for System OoP
Then the switching scheme's Secondary single-coil Combos would be: Inner/Inner (Mid and split-single from Bridge humbucker) Outer/Outer (Neck and alternative split-single from Bridge humbucker) Both in regular-wind and RWRP combos for humbucking. I have not diagrammed the range of combos, but they would be extensive. It also would have OoP combos the HBD designs do not. However, getting single OoP combos that are also humbucking gets me all turned around, yet I have seen John H's designs do it. A nice thing about the HBDs is that many optimal configs are hard wired, like if it is OoP it it hum-cancelling, other combos are hum-cancelling, and blatantly non-humcancelling combos are unavailable. To go back to the car analogy, there are some automatic transmissions in the HBD, and the approach described above would be more of a manual shifter transmission. Meaning some combos would not be humcancelling and the operator would have to make decisions while playing on the desirability or undesirability of that flexibility. While I am mostly a shadow memory to the board now, some of you may remember I am more mechanic and conceptualist than electronic guy. I defer that expertise to the incredible knowledge pool of the members here. Meaning beyond describing the idea I would have to beg some help on the design. What do you think? Issues that are raised with this approach? Any takers? Thanks as always RW
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Post by reTrEaD on May 25, 2012 13:33:39 GMT -5
However, getting single OoP combos that are also humbucking gets me all turned around, yet I have seen John H's designs do it. JohnH is very clever. If you dissect his designs, you will learn valuable secrets. When it comes to "automatic" hum-canceling, the concept is rather easy to understand. But it does have limitations. The "magic" that make this possible centers around always having a "series link" on the HB that has the phase switch. IF you have series and split (but not parallel) for a HB, you can embed the split with out-of-phase switch such that changing phase also changes which coil is used for the split. This coil swapping insures that changing phase doesn't alter the ability of the combination to hum-cancel. If the original selection of two coils was hum-canceling, the out-of-phase selection will also hum-cancel. But keep in mind, the out-of-phase selection uses a different coil from the HB. So it's not exactly the same combination. If you must have local parallel available on the HB that has the phase switch, all bets are off. You can't have "automatic" swapping of the coils to maintain hum-canceling. There aren't enough poles in a DPDT to attend to all the connections that would need to be swapped, if you don't maintain a permanent "series link" connection. You can accomplish the same "automatic" coil swapping if you use a 4PDT phase switch. Not many people want to go there.
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Post by JohnH on May 25, 2012 17:26:10 GMT -5
Thanks I think RW is embracing the idea that this arrangement would hum in certain positions more than others. Out of 4x4=16 settings of the two 4-way switches, only two would hum excessively to an extent that they might be better avoided in use because ther are similar quiter ones available. You could save them to play when running off a battery powered amp, somewhere deep in the forest...... J
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Post by newey on May 25, 2012 21:38:09 GMT -5
IOW, don't miss a shift and redline it. The "Dual Lever Switch" designs interest me as well, a while back I played around with a schematic for such a design, a variation on the double-barrel scheme. And SG's idea of a double Baja set-up is good. I like that you could have the levers parallel, so that lining up the two levers puts both pickups into the same state- series/parallel/SC. Are we to understand these to be std. Tele-style 3-way lever switches? Or just toggles, and the double-barrel-ish plans are then shelved? I am also wondering if 2 of the 2P5T "half superswitches" could be shoehorned into a Strat cavity. Dang it, I wish we had ChrisK's CAD file for the Strat cavity dimensions, we could check it in a heartbeat.
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Post by sbgodofmetal on May 26, 2012 0:46:18 GMT -5
Well there's always my discete double barrel mod done with two 6way rotaries
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Post by Runewalker on May 26, 2012 7:57:25 GMT -5
I think RW is embracing the idea that this arrangement would hum in certain positions more than others - JH Yep John, I fully accept the "risk." well read. by sbgodofmetal Well there's always my discete double barrel mod done with two 6way rotaries True that. John and I worked on a concept years ago using rotaries. I tried to find it to link it and was unsuccessful. It was around 2005-6. I just personally found the ergonomics of rotaries awkward compared to toggles and lever switches. So yes I thought about rotaries, but favored the levers. Also those suckers take up some real estate. One reason I wanted something different is that to use my preferred HBD 4-pot design on a Strat inevitably means hogging some cavity wood. If I can avoid that I will, however I have been known to dig out the forestners when required. It just always makes me nervous on finished bodies.
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Post by sbgodofmetal on May 28, 2012 19:18:50 GMT -5
Yeah as with everything else in life its not for everybody, different people have different tastes. AlThough you can get more out of it, its sometimes best to just go another way. You could also replace your pots with push pulls and just run jumper wires to them from the 5way switch to get the same sounds but that would also take away from doing other mods like p/Oop, peries/parallel, solo switching, or m.y personal favorites the varitone and the passive O.D., unless you don't mind drill even more holes to add in extra toggles.
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Post by sumgai on May 28, 2012 23:02:27 GMT -5
..... unless you don't mind drill even more holes to add in extra toggles. He's got you there, Rune... I can see at least enough room for at least two or three more switches.....
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Post by Runewalker on May 30, 2012 9:09:06 GMT -5
SG you dug deep to find that little piece of frivolity. Some years back. I remember an improbable debate about whether it was photoshopped or not. Well, duh. That goldey is the destination chassis, but I got carpel tunnel dysfunction from all those switches and toggles. ;D So am interested in simplifying it with this double barrels adaption. I have been playing with wiring diagrams but of course get bogged down. there are internet diagrams for the Tele baja that can be adapted. However, those still need to interface with the System-Series/parallel and OoP switches. So I am quicksanded. I could not find any schematics to paste up knowing you e-heads always want them first. Also, on the baha I am not sure about the order for each pup. My first notion is to have the order array (I think) as follows" position 1 (top) - Inner coil position 2 - Outer coil position 3 - Parallel humbucking position 4 (bottom) - Series humbucking Or I might reverse it: position 1 (top) - Series humbucking position 2 - Parallel humbucking position 3 - Inner coil position 4 (bottom) - Outer coil
anyone have opinions on the logic of the array, playing ergonomics arguments or alternative arrays with rationals? "unless you don't mind drill even more holes to add in extra toggles." -sbgodofmetal Thanks s-metal. I am converting this from the TM-II design which had a plethora of toggles and holes and am ready for the cleaner but no less adaptable double barrelled with only a pup selector and PPs for the Sys-Series/para and OoP. RW
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Post by sumgai on May 30, 2012 17:29:45 GMT -5
SG you dug deep to find that little piece of frivolity. Yes, I've kept it on my own disk for the occasional "shot in the arm" to prospective modders, but I used to get it straight from your P'bucket account. Not there anymore - what happened? Wasn't that a figment of Unklmickey's imagination? ;D That's always been my impression...... sumgai
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Post by ashcatlt on May 30, 2012 19:07:58 GMT -5
Wait, what? I haven't followed the links above, but the when you start talking about a "dual baja" with system S/P in a 4 coil instrument it starts to sound a lot like my mini-strat.
That's SHS with the neck RWRP from the bridge. Each coil of the middle is paired with its humcancelling counterpart from the outside on a DP5T rotary (needs a "neither" position) and an S/P switch to combine these two.
The big problem with the way I wired that one is that with either rotary in the "neither" position, flipping to system series kills the signal. I solved this problem for my hybrid (well,for about half of it...) but it required a third pole on each of the rotaries. The hybrid is HHH, and the rotaries for individual pickups - while based on the baja thing - only give access to one of the SC options. That's a simple (purposeful) omission from the standard baja wiring (with sumgai's hanging hot fix) and if you think it will help at all I could hunt up the schematic.
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Post by newey on May 30, 2012 19:33:26 GMT -5
Ash-
Whether it helps RW or not, we don't have any SHS schemes that I can recall- so howsabout putting a copy in the Schematics section?
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Post by ashcatlt on May 30, 2012 23:19:19 GMT -5
I never actually made a schematic for my mini. Guess I should, for posterity sake. Like I said, though, it's kinda broken. The bottom part of my hybrid works better, and might give some clues.
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Post by JohnH on May 31, 2012 5:04:06 GMT -5
RW - seems to me that what you want is the same as the 3 hole HBD, removing the pickup selector circuitry, and keeping the tone and volume controls and everything downstream of that including the S/P switch and main toggle, and treble bleeds if wanted.
What is then needed is a generic diagram for wiring up a 4-way tele switch (anyone got one?). The output of that will be two wires for each switch that will go to the tone controls. Between one of the 4-ways and its tone control will be a phase switch.
72 sounds!
J
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Post by ashcatlt on May 31, 2012 5:30:59 GMT -5
John - here's the one I use for reference. sumgai's version which fixes the hanging hot issue from the fender original and other versions I've seen. I guess I need to go look at this HBD thing. EDIT - Nevermind. Unless I'm completely mistaken, HBD is also broken. In system parallel mode turning down one volume causes total silence since the tip of the jack is shorted to the sleeve. This is the opposite to what my mini does. I guess you can pick which mode you want to gotcha, but you need more poles somewhere to avoid it altogether.
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Post by Runewalker on May 31, 2012 13:10:13 GMT -5
RW - seems to me that what you want is the same as the 3 hole HBD ... Yep, busted. The 3 hole HBD is my go to for Strat type HSS or other Master V/Master T configured chassis where I approprate the pick-up selector hole for its design. However, I prefer the 4-pot version because it fits my sense of intuitive use. So I was struck by the idea that SG gave me. I am fully satisfied (for the most part) with the HBD, however, I occasionally miss the Sys-Series, local series, OoP combo. Not often needed but when it is I have to switch to a JH-LP modded LP type to get there. I will play with adopting the 3-Hole HBD translation but will probably get bogged down. JH you asked about: "What is then needed is a generic diagram for wiring up a 4-way tele switch (anyone got one?)." ... and ashcatlt gracefully provided a schematic. If you still want a wiring diagram, I found this on StewMac:
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Post by Runewalker on May 31, 2012 13:14:30 GMT -5
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Post by sumgai on Jun 1, 2012 18:21:55 GMT -5
Rw, I've changed my link to correspond, thanks for the tip. sumgai
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Post by JohnH on Jun 2, 2012 1:34:43 GMT -5
I thought a bit about how this might work out with the 4-way switches, and I think there is further noise danger lurking here, due to hanging from hot. To do either coil and series or parallel, one would really want 3 or 4 poles on each switch. While the ‘baja’ 4-way Tele switches have just two. This means that one pickup (or coil) needs to have a wire permanently to hot, the other has a wire permanently to ground, leaving just two wires for the switch to act upon. In a Tele, with 4-way, this ‘hanging from hot’ is assigned to the neck pickup, and care is taken to ground its metal cover, which completely encloses it in the case of a Tele neck pup. This solves this potential problem for the series-capable Telecaster. But here, we are contemplating having series in series wiring with four coils. Two of which are big-butt p90’s, and when one of those hangs off the hot end of a series chain, I think the noise will be more than it should be. Still probably not a show-stopper, but to be considered. It would be better is super switches could be used – and these issues could be avoided. Also, you get 5 settings per pickup. (Id suggest having humbucker with one coil bypassed with a cap as the 5th option) The result would indeed be somewhat like the rotary switch designs that we talked about years ago, but implemented with 5-way super-switches. But would two superswitches fit? If not, proceed with caution with the baja swiches. cheers John
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Post by Runewalker on Jun 2, 2012 8:32:12 GMT -5
Hey John! Thanks for thinking about this. The concerns you raise are exactly why I came back home to think this through. I see what you mean and obviously don't want to do stupid stuff. That rotary project brought back some memories. I think I got a little stuck and actually sent some switches down under, and you diagnosed and repaired the issue .... plus sent a couple of buffer boards! Big hearted Brit that you are! Size wise the big superswitches would almost certainly not fit. They are .845" (21.5mm) wide so two together would be almost 2" (50.8mm) thick, allowing for some space btw them. Might work except for those pesky pots. this link: www.toneshapers.com/Assets/images/toneshaper/switches/TS-SW5F_compare_1920.jpgshows an alternative superswitch where the width is .614" (15.6mm), so two together with a little space would still be approx. 1 3/8" ( 33mm). That's still pretty fat and without any wood hogging would at the minimum require the skinny pots. Since this would have PPs the additional dimensions would be strained. I looked at a standard Fender 5 way and it is approx 3/8". So two sandwiched would be about 13/16" (20.6mm) or about the width of one large size superswitch. These are just eyeball estimates. I would have to draw it precisely to know. The other option would be to enlarge the cavity, which I am not complete opposed to on this build. The complicating factor there though is that the angle of the standard pickgaurd slot is too close to the edge to reasonably allow further routing. So to make it work I would have to both rout the wood towards the lower horn and change the pickgaurd slot angle, times two. While I have altered bunches of pickgaurds in terms of drilling, the one time I cut a new lever slot was less than satisfactory. I might need some luthier discussion on that one. What surfaced as a cool notion had shifted into a more complex project. The buffer in the link you gave reminded me that I always wanted to put on in a build but with a on-off switch, and doing that would require additional real estate. The Warren Haynes LP has that feature I believe but with a PP on-off for the buffer. I will discuss this with Son-o to assess the feasibility and pain of the 2x superswitch config. I have to re-do the gold pickgaurd anyway to convert it from the TM-II drill pattern. (Id suggest having humbucker with one coil bypassed with a cap as the 5th option) -JH
Remind me what the bypassed with a cap approach does soundwise... The fifth position for each pup brings up even more options. Any other ideas for it? Thanks JH RW
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Post by ashcatlt on Jun 2, 2012 8:38:55 GMT -5
sg's version of the baja thing shorts that hanging coil. I guess the jury's still out on that, but i think it's a lot better than having it just hanging by one end. In fact, I have implemented it in a couple of guitars and don't find it to be unreasonably noisy.
Nobody has even acknowledged my concern on this, though. Have we decided that it's an acceptable limitation?
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Post by newey on Jun 2, 2012 8:59:15 GMT -5
As far as fitment issues go, remember that there is also the single-wafer 2P5T "half-superswitch". While I couldn't find any exact dimensions, I always understood these to be the same width as the regular Strat 5-ways. This would allow for much more wiring versatility than 2 of the regular Strat 2P3T switches, although obviously not as versatile as two 4P switches.
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Post by reTrEaD on Jun 2, 2012 9:23:35 GMT -5
Runewalker, here's another option worth considering if you want to follow the 4P5T lever path: www.prorockgear.com/schallermegaswitchversione-2.aspxNobody has even acknowledged my concern on this, though. Have we decided that it's an acceptable limitation? Imho, "acceptable" will always be a matter of individual opinion and specific circumstances. JohnH pointed out (in a different thread) that a coil of a covered HB will be less of a hanging from hot problem. The metal cover offers some shielding. He and I share the same opinion regarding shunting a hanging coil regardless of covered or uncovered. In our estimation, it accomplishes nothing. Sumgai has a different opinion. We have agreed to disagree on that matter. Fwiw here is my take on hanging from hot, elaborated. 1 - Avoid hanging from hot and shunting coils wherever practical. 2 - Hanging from the middle of a series link is less of a problem than hanging from hot. 3 - Pickups combinations that have a strong output can tolerate hum issues better than those with a weak output. Example: An out of phase combination will suffer more if there is an extraneous coil hanging from hot or if the combination isn't inherently hum-canceling. Since the signal is weak to begin with, any hum will be a larger percentage of the total. 4 - If there is no practical way around it, accept hanging from hot as a necessary evil.
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Post by JohnH on Jun 2, 2012 15:51:20 GMT -5
pÉƎᴚ⊥Çá´š, that M Megaswich looks like a useful find.
Peering at the traces shown on the photo, they seem to show that its connections are laid out in the same order as a normal superswitch, ie the pole connections are at each end on each side. So it could be easily applied to any of our superswitch wiring diagrams, but its really thin. Price is OK too.
John
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Post by reTrEaD on Jun 2, 2012 17:02:55 GMT -5
I haven't actually had my hands on a MegaswitchM. Just the S model (standard strat type). It's built in a similar fashion with a printed board and coil spring loaded wiper bars on a plastic hub. Well constructed and the detent mechanism is far superior to those found on other lever switches.
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Post by Runewalker on Jun 2, 2012 17:06:13 GMT -5
Intriguing. I have always been a fan of true lugs and the mechanical connection they facilitate. I always preferred the electo-mechanical opposed to the circuit board type levers, but it was just a vague bias not really substantiated empirically. I never had a circuit board type fail. But then again I could always actually rebuild a carburetor opposed to an injector system.... even though I acknowledge their superiority over normally aspirated fuel delivery systems. With these "soldering pads" of the Mega M do you just silver the pad and then blob a bead with attached wire to the pad? seems sort of insubstantial, but I guess it would work. Just hope it does not come loose during the 60" vertical leaps and windmills.
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Post by newey on Jun 2, 2012 18:40:38 GMT -5
Channeling your inner Pete Townsend, I see.
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Post by JohnH on Jun 2, 2012 19:56:05 GMT -5
Channeling your inner Pete Townsend, I see. At our age, there are several other things more likely to come loose doing that, before failure of the the soldering to a pickup selector switch. Meanwhile - to move this along, here is some sketching: The top part is a schematic of the guts of a suitable circuit - same as the relevant parts of the HBD - A wiring diag. would be the next step. Plugging onto the left and right, the pickups, wired optionally either with a 5 way or 4 way switch, both the same, connected at A-B and C-D. Order of selections could be changed. With the 5way, the Hb-cap bypassed, is a sound like a single coil, with added bass and a bit of a mid dip. I like it muchly on a Bridge Hb, or between N and M single coils, both of which could occur here. cheers John
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Post by reTrEaD on Jun 3, 2012 6:49:13 GMT -5
I have always been a fan of true lugs and the mechanical connection they facilitate. Same here. The earlier version Megaswitch S had lugs that were riveted through the pads. But that wouldn't be possible on the M where you have pads on both sides of the board. With these "soldering pads" of the Mega M do you just silver the pad and then blob a bead with attached wire to the pad? seems sort of insubstantial, but I guess it would work. Just hope it does not come loose during the 60" vertical leaps and windmills. 'Pete', you tin the pad and tin the wire. Then hold the end of the wire flat against the pad with your left hand. And heat the wire and pad with the soldering iron in your right hand. Then add some solder to the pad and wire with your other left hand. It's a tricky procedure. But if the wire is against the pad while soldering, it will make a strong joint. The top part is a schematic of the guts of a suitable circuit - same as the relevant parts of the HBD - A wiring diag. would be the next step. Plugging onto the left and right, the pickups, wired optionally either with a 5 way or 4 way switch, both the same, connected at A-B and C-D. Order of selections could be changed. With the 5way, the Hb-cap bypassed, is a sound like a single coil, with added bass and a bit of a mid dip. I like it muchly on a Bridge Hb, or between N and M single coils, both of which could occur here. cheers John Whatever order you choose for the selections, it would make sense if the singles were in the same position on both switches. If the north P-90 single was in the same switch position as the south single of the HB (and vice versa) the hum-canceling pairs would occur when the switches are both in the same position. At least for the in-phase pairs. You could take this one step farther and incorporate some "automatic" hum-canceling. I'd use the right side of the top section for the bridge. Only on the HB local selector, you would direct the (-) of a single to system ground instead of to the 'D' buss. The (+) of the unused single is also directed to system ground while the (-) of the unused coil is directed to the 'D' buss. This swaps the two coils of the HB when the phase switch is flipped. You would still have all the same hum-canceling and non-hum-canceling pairs. But the hum-canceling pairs would always occur when the two local levers were synchronized.
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Post by ashcatlt on Jun 3, 2012 13:03:58 GMT -5
And you still can't have just one coil in system parallel mode.
And in series mode if you want to turn off the bridge side you end up with it and its switch and pots hanging from hot. Sure, they're shorted at the Volume control, but I'm told that this is just as bad as leaving it hanging by one end, so...
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